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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 26, 2012 11:02 PM |
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I agree, the chess analogy is very bad. Unless we are talking about Duels.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 26, 2012 11:30 PM |
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Quote:
a free resurrection, underpowered?
Bringing few units back once per combat in HoMMV ultimately had nearly no impact on the final score. Same with HoMM III. So yes, the ability was underpowered. Compared to abilities that gave me victories in first turns (like Prismatic breath of Crystal Dragons / HoMMV) it sucks.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 26, 2012 11:41 PM |
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Why do you compare to the most Overpowered ability "prismatic breath"? Why not compare to Raise Pit Lords? All in all, abilities were NOT what made level 7 creatures good, heck, before upgrading them most had NO abilities at all.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 26, 2012 11:57 PM |
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Because resurrect was rather underwhelming.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 26, 2012 11:58 PM |
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But you agree that Prismatic Breath was the most overpower ability ever? Stupid to compare anything to overpowered abilities imho.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted June 27, 2012 12:48 AM |
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Ah, but the best ones did have abilities that were unique to them. Angels had none, and were merely tanks to take punishment for more valuable units like the griffins or paladins, while the green/ shadow dragons were incredibly quickly moving creatures (green with initiative and speed, shadow with only speed) and their breath attacks, making them incredibly potent offensive units that had the ability to fly. Fire dragons (while ridiculously expensive) were the toughest creatures in the game, able to take punishment in massive gobs and redirect 25% back with their fire shield and they also had a breath attack. Unfortunately, they were rather slow... but their role was not getting to the enemy, it was to hurt the enemy once they got to the Dwarven creature wall. Devils and bone dragons were both basically worthless, and how many abilities did they have? Right, flying and large. Their stats did not help them either.
But you really did not use the basic lvl7 creatures in combat unless you were Sylvan, Dungeon, or Fortress (Since the basics can be rather very useful). In general, you waited for the upgrades. And suddenly, you gained busloads of useful abilities, such as Resurrection, Prismatic Breath, Sorrow strike, Magic immunity, etc, etc. Devils remained relatively weak since their ability (Summon Pit Lords) was very situational and required a full stack of your creatures to die before you could use it.
In Heroes 6, Champion active abilities seem to be less game-changing than basically any other creature ability. The angel's resurrect is less powerful than the Sister's heal (based on how much HP you get per week) and can only be used once. Pit Lords are powerful creatures in their own respect, but their Boundless Hate ability does not deal damage that one would really expect from a champion. Kirin do not have an active ability, and no one complains about it.  Cyclopeses are just... meatballs meatshields, gaining the ability to shoot once every odd turn for a decent bit less damage than normal. Weavers are just... Weavers. They shoot things and increase the damage of all dark magic. *Shrug*
Because of this, H6 champion upgrades and abilities seem to be far more underwhelming than the H5 Tier 7 abilities. Their impact is not as strongly felt as they would have been in other games, making Champions have a seemingly much reduced usefulness. Upgrades are no longer game-changing or even creature-changing, the creatures fill the same roles anyway, at about the same effectiveness.
In H5 Giants became shooters when upgraded (Woot, Titans!) and gained the ability to call one of two types of lightning to the battle at will. Black Dragons are impervious to magical damage and are used to hunt mage creatures or heroes, unless you choose Red Dragons, who deal far more damage with their incinerate ability and are more offensive in their building than the Blacks. Magma Dragons fulfill their original role even better, becoming close to invincible. Ghost Dragons are suddenly useful and absolutely wreak the moral of any enemy they strike. Chrystal Dragons close in quickly, and then chain-shot their attack to hit up to 5 enemies. Cyclopses use your (basically) worthless goblins as ammunition and have some nasty abilities otherwise. Etc, etc.
Meanwhile, H6 Champion upgrades don't really change roles or effectiveness at those roles. Celestials are still a flying, striking creature that casts a single (weaker) heal just in case you are dumb enough to let one of your stacks die completely. Pit Lords are still a swift, damage-dealing tank, the only bonus they really get is a small pool of increased health and a weak field-damaging ability. Kirin are still Kirin, but now come with a hailstorm of snowballs. Fate Weavers are still strong shooters that curse their target. And the Meatballs are still melee-focused damage dealers that get what is basically a rifle, while their main attack hits enemies with a freaking bus. The only really present aspect that is readily felt when you purchase the upgrade is their enhanced growth and pretty new colors. It makes the upgrades, as stated before, seem underwhelming when compared to what was felt in H5.
[/rant]
Now, I can't wait for this update to come out.  I have always loved my inferno factions, (even when it was infernopolis) and would like to see the game a bit balanced. With the changes that are listed, it looks like Inferno might actually reach the top of the totem pole, since they are basically getting all advantages and factions such as Sanctuary will be severely gimped by the higher cost of direct-healing spells/ the cut to regeneration's duration. Inferno is affected by this as well, but to a much lesser degree since they have no access to light magic normally (No heal) and have had to focus on preserving instead of healing units anyway up to this point. If someone has learned to control Inferno, then they will have a leg up on other players who will have to adjust to the healing spell modifications.
With the D-Damage spells becoming stronger, I can again say FINALLY! Having a powerful caster will allow you to be useful once you run out of buffs/ heals, and Direct-Damage spells are finally worth the skill point, if only for the early game. I wonder if this also translates to the Inferno Blood hero's D-D abilities? If so, then I will absolutely love this update, since I'm doing the inferno campaign as a Blood path caster, and I already use/ spam that first level spell. (Its bounce ability is very nice...)
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2012 01:03 AM |
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to be fair, the Ressurection ability also boosts iniative and morale by quite a lot
and imo, Kirins are amazing and kinda carry the entire Sanctuary army with their mist (one of the best ability designs in the history of HoMM)
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted June 27, 2012 01:05 AM |
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As I said, nobody complains about the Kirins. But then, the entire Sanctuary faction seems to be well thought-out and interesting. Kirin are icing on a rather delicious cake, not necessary but very helpful.
The moral/ initiative boost is a very temporary thing. :/ Which I find to be rather unfortunate... and underwhelming. It's just a buff for one target, your hero has all of this god-like buffs and spells that do the same thing for your entire army. >.>
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted June 27, 2012 08:27 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
...
What I wish (in any Heroes game) is that there is NO healing what-so-ever, makes strategizing that much more important.
...
That sux alot dude! Try playing on hard and you wont have a chance to finish first turn. What you'll use for not loosing creatures?!Remember you can make load of strategies right now, what chess are you talking about...Im guessing you're playing only at normal or easy settings! 
And btw in chess, u can change one pawn with something bigger...and even more 
I just don't like healing, feel like it's the soft way out even on hardest difficulty....
I enjoyed the days of Heroes 1 to 5 where healing was limited to regen and ressurect (and raise dead for necro).....also liked the symbiosys ability of pixies in H5....but for troops to have healing abilities makes the game easier, imho...
The chess I am refering to is the game that I think requires the most strategizing than any other.....it's what Heroes games compare to on the battlefield (duels).
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 27, 2012 09:28 AM |
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Quote:
Bringing few units back once per combat in HoMMV ultimately had nearly no impact on the final score. Same with HoMM III. So yes, the ability was underpowered. Compared to abilities that gave me victories in first turns (like Prismatic breath of Crystal Dragons / HoMMV) it sucks.
In Heroes V the Archangels were the only source of resurrection for Haven which did not decrease the stats of the resurrected creatures. The Resurrection spell was the only other way to bring back your troops. That didn't make the Archangels' resurrection all that powerful (although I wouldn't call it useless at all). In Heroes VI though you have resurrection via the Vestals, the Angels/Archangels, the Healing spell, the Regeneration spell and eventually via the Tear Magic hero's ultimate special. That's a total of five ways to bring your troops back, four if your hero is not Tear Magic. With so many ways to compensate for your losses, every single source of resurrection is powerful just because it adds to the total score.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2012 10:22 AM |
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I don't understand, what's wrong with you, people.
NO ONE wants a creature with an ability that may decide a battle without the opponent having any chance to react. So while the Prismatic Breath ability as such might be considered ok under some circumstances, it's certainly not ok in connection with a creature that can cross the whole BF, will move before nearly everyone else and deals severe damage, with chances of Luck and Moral triggering are big as well.
So it's wrong to compare anything with that - that should definitely not exist.
Now, Boundless Hate was mentioned and considered "weak".
So what do you expect? An ability that will do so much effeortless damage that everyone else will complain about it?
Boundless Hate has unlimited charges and gives the 7 MP Pit Lord an immediate, effortless, unretaliated magic attack, not unlike Armageddon - except that this is a Blood II ability which costs 80 Mana, has one charge only (and has just been strengthened by 30%). Of course it's NOT a no-brainer to cast - what sense would a no-brainer make? At battle start Boundless Hate will do 105 Fire Damage (modified by hero magic (fire) attack stats per Pit Lord, which is a lot, albeit the damage is divided. It may in fact be better to NOT use Boundless Hate and do something else.
Then it may come handy once in a while to kill off the remnants of a few stacks.
Do we really want to add to this attack, until you AUTOMATICALLY start combat by triggering Boundless Hate because the damage dealt is just too good to pass up the opportunity? Adding to it, but restricting it to one or two charges doesn't make it any better in that department - then it's even more of a no-brainer.
The only useful way I see to add to this ability would be a progressively increasing damage the way Archery 2 works: with every vasting of Boundless Hate, hate would be rather more boundless, doing +x% more damage with each casting.
I don't think, I need to explain the consequences this would have, tactically.
However, given the current limitations with functional cchanges I doubt something like that will be possible.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 27, 2012 10:58 AM |
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Boundless Hate currently does nothing although it will probably see some improvement if (most of) the Cores have their Magic Defense reduced in the actual patch. In any case, 15 damage per Pit Lord per stack is a joke. You need 2 Pit Lords to kill a regular Core even if it has 0 Magic Defense and about 3 (even 4 in some cases) to kill a regular Core led by a Magic hero. The damage dealt to the Elites and the Champions is laughable. In a normal game you'll have difficulties getting more than 15-20 Pit Lords. And there's a 2 turns cooldown. Powerful as an anorexic slap, in short.
Bottom line is why would you waste your most powerful creature's turn to tickle the entire enemy army when it has abilities like Blade of Hatred and Hateful Retaliation that REALLY do something? I'd rather defend with the Pit Lords than use Boundless Hate.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted June 27, 2012 12:08 PM |
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Quote:
In Heroes VI though you have resurrection via the Vestals, the Angels/Archangels, the Healing spell, the Regeneration spell and eventually via the Tear Magic hero's ultimate special. That's a total of five ways to bring your troops back, four if your hero is not Tear Magic.
@Zenofex -> My sentiments exactly! Too much healing.
It's like playing Max Payne with a 100 painkillers to use.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2012 12:13 PM |
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But that's only you.
Now, the first thing is, that depending on the Heroes involved FIRE damage may be a lot better a proposition than MIGHT damage. If you have a Magic hero with a magic attack of, say, 20 + some additional points in Fire, fighting a might hero with a magic defense of say 10 will produce much more damage. If you do have 15-20 Pit Lords, we are talking about 1600-2100 unmodified damage for nothing, and while that is divided onto 7 stacks it's a lot more damage than the Pit Lords can deal with their regular attack: Hateful RETALIATION is not influenced at all here, and the only thing you sacrifice is the Blade of Hatred effect - which is useless against some creatures.
So this is no ability you MUST use. It's an OPTION, if circumstances are right: you may have the Rune of Flame, it may be the week of Fire, you may have visited a Soul Harvester... - just as Blade of Mercy is an option (if the Seraphim die, befor they can use it... bad luck).
Which is correct: if the ability was double as good - what would happen with the Rune of Flame in a fire week, after visiting a Soul Harvester?
The problem here is maybe, that Boundless Hate might be the WRONG ability to give to the Pit Lords...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2012 12:36 PM |
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I think the activated Boundless Hate abiliy is just a poorly designed ability.
What's the fun and strategic value in an ability where you click on one button and then it deals unavoidable damage to all enemy creatures on the battlefield?
I'd much rather have something like Axe/Blade of Slaughter from H5. Or an entirely new abiliy. Oh well, we might get alternate upgrades some day.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 27, 2012 12:47 PM |
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Quote:
But you agree that Prismatic Breath was the most overpower ability ever? Stupid to compare anything to overpowered abilities imho.
What do you expect? If someone says Angel's resurrection had any impact on battle, I give example of an overpowered ability that had ridiculous impact on the battlefield. Maybe you weren't around back then but we had lots of discussions regarding "imba resurrection of archangels" for ages, that's why I like to compare that ability to REALLY overpowered skills.
As for HoMM III resurrection, it was better, but 9 out of 10 times it was better to attack with your archangels than to cast. HoMM V archangel resurrection was... lame.
Quote:
I just don't like healing, feel like it's the soft way out even on hardest difficulty....
Difficulty is set by your opponent (either AI or a person), and not by immovable, interactive elements of the background. The days when healing was non-existent were also the times where you had to play each encounter XXX times until you learned precisely what spells, units or tactics to use. That kind of labor wasn't fun, but it was required to win a game vs. a good opponent. Forcing people to no-life again makes me instantly uninterested  I love heroes but being forced to replay creeping on single player and "train" to find the best way to exploit the stupid AI seems rather lame idea to me. I did it once with HoMM III, I don't want to do it again.
Heroes VI healing means you can focus on tactics vs. another player, and not on the ways to exploit the AI so you can get overpowered artifacts with tiny forces and stomp the opposing player who doesn't know the exploits. See heroes III or V. Is that what you want to see in online play? We've been there before. That's exactly what happens if you make losses inevitable without AI exploiting.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 27, 2012 12:52 PM |
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Quote:
If you have a Magic hero with a magic attack of, say, 20 + some additional points in Fire, fighting a might hero with a magic defense of say 10 will produce much more damage.
Last time I checked Boundless Hate was not affected by any external modifiers, Magic Power or whatever. Flat 15 points of damage per Pit Lord minus the Magic Defense of the attacked creature and that's it. If you are talking about how it should be, that'a different story. I'm talking about how it is.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2012 01:14 PM |
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That should be checked and fixed, since it makes no sense.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 27, 2012 01:17 PM |
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That is a bug then, someone should report it.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted June 27, 2012 01:45 PM |
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@Doomforge -> I understand what you are saying, it's just my opinion and was more refering to duels (like when Elvin can make a nice one like H5 ToH Duel 1.2 map)...
Nonetheless, I still think that troops should not have healing, only spells/abilities, I mean they realised this and dropped the healing from 2 to 1 on troops per battle.
Also, in old Heroes games when you had to play each encounter XXX times until you learned precisely what tactics, etc. to use, upon finishing the map, it made it really feel worthwhile like you have accomplished something. Now games are getting too easy to finish and no just reward is felt anymore.
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