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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 01:25 PM |
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Edited by jhb at 14:00, 29 Jun 2012.
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Quote:
Heroes VI has alot to offer and brings alot to the table (reputation is nice addition).
The issues that most of the loyal fans have is Heroes VI alters some of the series' long-standing conventions:
- Abandoning the chance-based skills system (which one always had to strategize what route to go - good for replayability too)
- reducing the number of resources (therefore reducing strategy on how and when to build)
- Shared creature pool & town conversion (making it esay to get 100% of troops at any time - no strategy but time saving I suppose)
- Magic guild leveling is replaced by the hero skill/ability wheel leveling
The most significant for me is the loss of chance-based skill system and magic guild....this I found was what made the Heroes series unique.
Well, I agree with DoubleDeck in many points. And, at least for me, seems like a lot of the design decisions were made to try to make the game more multiplayer friendly.
About the reduction of resources. I think the idea is the same of the skill system: to reduce the luck factor. I wasn't very happy with that change, but now I think it's ok. In the previous games, we could get "lucky" and get a sulfur mine next to the Dungeon town, this alone would make a big difference. And now, there is no faction favored resource. However, I would like to play with one more rare resource.
About the skill system, I agree with JJ:
Quote:
Having a complete free-pick skill system makes sense only, if the skills are "balanced", that is, if none are (too) weak and none are (too) strong. It would also make sense, when you didn't get class-specific skills automatically, but if they were part of the pool to pick from.
I mean, there is nothing wrong with simply trying to create such a system - but then you have to make the changes work.
@DohMah
Man, imho the game is a bit different but still very enjoyable. Overall is a good game, and is getting better patch after patch (yea I'm optimist hehe). For me, the biggest disappointment was the absence of the town screens, and we'll be getting this with the 1.5.
I also think you already "hate" the game too much for just 5-6 hours of gameplay. My advise is if you really like the homm style, you should experiment the new things a bit more, or maybe wait til the 1.5 
But I understand your feeling. I'm a huge fan of action rpgs like diablo 2, titan quest... and I just realized the new diablo 3 is not for me, I can say this now after many many hours trying to like the game lol.
Oh, and yea, homm VI is a game for kids  . Maybe one day we can get some adult content with dancers and strippers. The good news is there will be elven condoms. 
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted June 29, 2012 01:39 PM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 13:40, 29 Jun 2012.
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...random skills at level ups...?!?! thats what I mostly hated in H5.
When I first played H6, well, I felt much better!
y? cose i always couldnt get what I needed mostly, or, if I got it, it was just too late.
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted June 29, 2012 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
...random skills at level ups...?!?! thats what I mostly hated in H5.
When I first played H6, well, I felt much better!
y? cose i always couldnt get what I needed mostly, or, if I got it, it was just too late.
Erm, sorry I disagree, cos although there was the luck factor in level ups there was a way to build a hero the way you want (esp H5 with probabilities of certain skills getting offered more often), it took pure player skill to do this, now in H6 it's too simple, no skill required for what you want.
The skill in hero build was part of the game. It made or break winning games.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 02:08 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 14:10, 29 Jun 2012.
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You can have a random skill system which without making it into a lottery.
At level 2, you get four skills. At level three, you get offered two new skills and two that improve your existing skills.
All skills should be useful though and of course, Might heroes would get a slightly higher chance of getting Might skills rather than Magic skills and vice versa.
My main problems with H6 are:
- The UI is not immersive. It's plain, boring and it looks like their aim was for you to think like "I just want to get over this and go through this menu as fast as possible!" Compare the UI in H6 to the one in H3 and H5. They are so much more immersive and I think immersive is something very important in HoMM. This also includes the lack of town screens up untill 1.5
- The skill and magic system. The lack of random kills of replayability to me. The new supermarket-system is also not immersive and like Doomforge wrote, a lot of the skills just feel pointless such as "YES! +2 Destiny". And it also lacks racial diversity. Everybody has the same skill tree.
- To many pointless changes that didn't add anything to the game. While I like area of control, I don't get why we needed town conversion which makes the maps feel very homogenous in the end. There are a lot of other ways to solve the problem that town conversion was supposed to be the solution off.
The shared creature pool is also weird and I'd probably have prefered a possibly automated caravan-like system and that you could recruit creatures from your forts. The change to reduce the amount of resources and the Blood-Tear system still feels pointless. And the Magic system feels like a step down from the one used in H4 and H5. I liked the specialized schools of magic a lot better.
- It's just not a better game than TotE. TotE has so much more such as the alternate upgrades, meaningful magic schools etc. Sure, TotE was the second expansion but I expect a sequel to atleast be better than its original predecessor. H6 is on the same level as the original H5, if not worse (I played more H5 than I have played H6).
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 03:15 PM |
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Quote:
- Shared creature pool & town conversion The creature pool should stay there and stay there for good. no more chaining heroes across the map that make turns take ages. Town conversion could use some balancing but the idea is ok.
I disagree in this point. This feature "mutelates" any on map strategy, all you have to do is go to town and get the units, Basicaly you could play duels only, and let us not forget that if a battle of two similar players takes place. The winner will be the one who "Holds a second castel longer"
Creature pool is imho innescessary. You have full web like town portal system why do you need a shared creature pool.
The Pool should stay IMHO in the fallowing way:
The pool aplyies only on the individual areas. so you do not have to pickup individual dwellings seperatly.
If anybody would ask me one feature I woudl change on heroes VI It would be this one. and I woudl do anything in my power to do so.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 03:26 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 15:27, 29 Jun 2012.
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The Shared creature pool and town conversion were bad ideas.
Instead of having town conversion, when you capture any town on the map, the creature growth in your racial/main cities increase. Instead of in like H5 having random towns, there is a new type of neutral town which can be converted. Those neutral towns prevent map inbalance and are the only ones that can be converted.
The shared creature pool doesn't work. I think they should have used a different system which utilizes the area control and forts.
Every town has its own creature production like in previous games but each Fort can also be linked to one of those towns. So if I connect a town to one of my forts, I can either recruit my creatures in the town or in the linked fort. This system would also remove the stupid town portal system and make players spend more time on the adventure map rather than needing to go home to the main city once a week.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted June 29, 2012 03:27 PM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 15:37, 29 Jun 2012.
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Quote:
Quote:
...random skills at level ups...?!?! thats what I mostly hated in H5.
When I first played H6, well, I felt much better!
y? cose i always couldnt get what I needed mostly, or, if I got it, it was just too late.
Erm, sorry I disagree, cos although there was the luck factor in level ups there was a way to build a hero the way you want (esp H5 with probabilities of certain skills getting offered more often), it took pure player skill to do this, now in H6 it's too simple, no skill required for what you want.
The skill in hero build was part of the game. It made or break winning games.
luck factor?...pls tell me about luck factor in H5...I played over 5 hundred games in H5 on multiplayer maps, much more then in h6. When you play versus specific faction, you want specific skills for your heroes, but ... we hope we have a good luck factor...thats nice strategy indeed!
EDIT: anyway, there was a "respecialization" non functional button ingame for heroes in H6, I never saw it working...thats first thing.
secondly, I would agree with H5 wheel skill , but only if we could choose what we are offered in that specific main skill branch.
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 03:33 PM |
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Quote:
The shared creature pool doesn't work. I think they should have used a different system which utilizes the area control and forts.
Every town has its own creature production like in previous games but each Fort can also be linked to one of those towns. So if I connect a town to one of my forts, I can either recruit my creatures in the town or in the linked fort. This system would also remove the stupid town portal system and make players spend more time on the adventure map rather than needing to go home to the main city once a week.
This is an interesting idea. And I agree that the Creature pool is none functioning.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 29, 2012 03:45 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:47, 29 Jun 2012.
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Then there were guys like me who got their desired skills in almost every game  The essential ones anyway. Manipulating the skill system to your advantage was very tricky admitedly, a fact too painfully obvious whenever you had to deal with a memory mentor. Jinxer for one never got around to mastering it and he had played a LOT.
I rather like the current system as it is.. or rather the concept of choice behind it. Picking just 3-4 basic skills in H5 felt poor compared to H3 and H6 gives you the impression of a wealth of skills. Or it would if there weren't so many filler skills like +x to whatever stat.
Now if each tier of a skill like luck/light magic/etc opened up more choices of the same tier.. Like luck having a tier x lucky defense ability(a la H4), or warlock's luck or dead man's luck.. You would automatically get a lot more options on how you wish your build to be. More branches.
There's a lot more you could do with the system to keep it more interesting (like faction unique abilities, banning some for certain factions, boosting the faction's favoured might tabs like warcries for stronghold or tactics for haven, introducing more non-damaging area of effect abilities, improving spell variety for a faction's favoured magic type(s), further differentiating might and magic classes etc etc) but that's my main gripe. With any luck I might get around to implementing some of my ideas in the future.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 03:55 PM |
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And OF COURSE the creature pool is working.
Why would anyone want to waste time with one or more heroes townportalling around to gather the troops? Makes no sense at all.
Don't forget that the creature pool is working only as long you do NOT hire the troops in it. Once you hire them they are committed and have to be transported - but of course when they are in the pool they are not with your hero(es).
So what the pool does is saving you the bother to send heroes around - if there was no pool you'd simply have a hero in any of your towns, just waiting for the day he'd have to transport troops.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 04:08 PM |
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Quote:
Why would anyone want to waste time with one or more heroes townportalling around to gather the troops? Makes no sense at all.
I don't think people want that either.
Personally, I want a new system like the one I suggested where you can recruit creatures in Forts.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 29, 2012 04:09 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 16:09, 29 Jun 2012.
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I don't like the creature pool. Ruins the atmosphere.
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 05:15 PM |
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I personally miss the caravans. I liked seeing them riding across the land, knowing that if you timed it poorly, an enemy could intercept it.
This way the creature bonus wasn't automatic in your town(s) and you didn't need that extra hero just to go pick them up.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 05:36 PM |
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Quote:
And OF COURSE the creature pool is working.
Why would anyone want to waste time with one or more heroes townportalling around to gather the troops? Makes no sense at all.
Don't forget that the creature pool is working only as long you do NOT hire the troops in it. Once you hire them they are committed and have to be transported - but of course when they are in the pool they are not with your hero(es).
So what the pool does is saving you the bother to send heroes around - if there was no pool you'd simply have a hero in any of your towns, just waiting for the day he'd have to transport troops.
It just feels so ilogical, so symple and so.. Mechanic. Like Avirosb said it ruins the atmosphere and for me it ruins a large part of strategy in the game. I may be a little to oldschool in this opinion. The town/dwelling/Forts produce the units, shouldn't those units be recruitable in the particular towns? Yes the mechanics themselves work fine. But I just do not think they are good for the game.
Also on the topic of Town conversion, One thing this feature kills is: Practicaly no motivation to try and combine armies from different factions.
And for me, these are some chalanges Heroes VI lacks against its preceders.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted June 29, 2012 05:55 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
...random skills at level ups...?!?! thats what I mostly hated in H5.
When I first played H6, well, I felt much better!
y? cose i always couldnt get what I needed mostly, or, if I got it, it was just too late.
Erm, sorry I disagree, cos although there was the luck factor in level ups there was a way to build a hero the way you want (esp H5 with probabilities of certain skills getting offered more often), it took pure player skill to do this, now in H6 it's too simple, no skill required for what you want.
The skill in hero build was part of the game. It made or break winning games.
luck factor?...pls tell me about luck factor in H5...I played over 5 hundred games in H5 on multiplayer maps, much more then in h6. When you play versus specific faction, you want specific skills for your heroes, but ... we hope we have a good luck factor...thats nice strategy indeed!
EDIT: anyway, there was a "respecialization" non functional button ingame for heroes in H6, I never saw it working...thats first thing.
secondly, I would agree with H5 wheel skill , but only if we could choose what we are offered in that specific main skill branch.
Luck factor = getting lucky on choice of level up (getting offered the skill/ability you want)
So when I said although there is this factor, you could manipulate the level ups to what you want (I'm talking H5).
Eg. Knight getting leadership 10%, Warlock is 2%.
Together with racial abilities, you could get the desired skills you want (agree with Elvin here).
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 05:56 PM |
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Quote:
It just feels so ilogical, so symple and so.. Mechanic. Like Avirosb said it ruins the atmosphere and for me it ruins a large part of strategy in the game. I may be a little to oldschool in this opinion. The town/dwelling/Forts produce the units, shouldn't those units be recruitable in the particular towns? Yes the mechanics themselves work fine. But I just do not think they are good for the game.
Also on the topic of Town conversion, One thing this feature kills is: Practicaly no motivation to try and combine armies from different factions.
And for me, these are some chalanges Heroes VI lacks against its preceders.
When I first heard of town conversion, I thought it would be a timed thing. Sort of like for every three extra buildings it would take an extra day. Of course, this would deter people from actually converting, because would you want to leave such a town undefended? When I heard that it was instant, I felt relived, but then felt a lack of that strategy... Also, I think a mixture of caravans and creature pool would have been fine. All bonus dwellings would have sent their troops to the fort or castle nearby, and to get those nits somewhere else, caravans would be needed. Then again, this might just slow everything down, but I liked the idea.
Of course, it's not just the town conversion that is cutting down on army mixtures. The armies themselves are. Wanna use that ability to walk on water? Got to only have naga units, or suddenly you need a boat. That kind of abilities, as well as some of the high end skills, won't effect your racial troops, but if you mixed say humans with your demons, some problems might arise. And there has always been slight pats on the wrist when it came to army mixing. If you tried to give an inferno hero some human troops in H3, be prepared for those humans to get morale penalties. In H5, Succubus Mistress' attack? Better only have demons. Say you wanted to give a dwarf a mini artifacts -oops!- can only be put on your wizard academy units, so no dragon's gonna get an artifact. And the other way around, no djinn's gonna get a rune put on them. So that's not the only demotivation. But you are right, this certainly shoves army mixing aside a bit more harshly.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 06:28 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:33, 29 Jun 2012.
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Personally, I'd like to see more unit mixing.
I'd suggest expanding the amount of army slots from 7 to 10 or something like that.
But I think the biggest problem with H6 might be that everything is done in such an unimmersive way. Immersion is so important for a game like HoMM. New features are great but in the future, they must be done in an immersive way.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DohMah
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 29, 2012 06:31 PM |
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Edited by DohMah at 19:36, 29 Jun 2012.
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Quote:
Oh, and yea, homm VI is a game for kids . Maybe one day we can get some adult content with dancers and strippers. The good news is there will be elven condoms.
Irony is bad with this one. Sorry but i see that you misunderstood me what ive said there. So let me help you. Ubisoft "joined" a group of game developers who creates games for masses - younger gamers, who dont actually care about gameplay very much yet. Biggest thing for them is graphics and other shiny stuff. Obviously, as with Heroes is an old franchise, theres also many older fans like me who prefer gameplay, challenge more than the shiny stuff. Heroes 6 has no challenge. The only challenge you face is that enemy armies are quite strong. Thats all. Gameplay is so easy, strategically one-lined and no-brainer.
Also, i understand that you may be a younger player (but maybe not a one who doesnt care about the gameplay) so with that i maybe insulted you a little, so sorry. Lets say that Heroes 6 is for dummies who doesnt actually care about game mechanics. The worst thing is that theres much more dummies nowadays than players who prefer gameplay. And you guys only play it because you love Heroes series. But theres some hope, as I see how the new Call of Duty games are getting criticised for the same problem. Heroes 6, unfortunately , is also a good example of this paradox - shiny graphics, nice animations, interesting creatures (well, some of them) and mostly important, Heroes 6 is excessively easy to play. And im 100% sure that nobody would ever play this game if not the graphics and a recent release - its interesting for us to see whats new has been done, right? Homm 3 is old and with poor graphics, but it has many players even now.
____________
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted June 29, 2012 08:10 PM |
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Quote:
Then there were guys like me who got their desired skills in almost every game The essential ones anyway. Manipulating the skill system to your advantage was very tricky admitedly, a fact too painfully obvious whenever you had to deal with a memory mentor. Jinxer for one never got around to mastering it and he had played a LOT.
well, on the memory mentor in 5, i got very rare what i wanted...there were about 2o%...spent all my gold for nothing was most time
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 09:14 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Oh, and yea, homm VI is a game for kids . Maybe one day we can get some adult content with dancers and strippers. The good news is there will be elven condoms.
Irony is bad with this one. Sorry but i see that you misunderstood me what ive said there. So let me help you. Ubisoft "joined" a group of game developers who creates games for masses - younger gamers, who dont actually care about gameplay very much yet. Biggest thing for them is graphics and other shiny stuff. Obviously, as with Heroes is an old franchise, theres also many older fans like me who prefer gameplay, challenge more than the shiny stuff. Heroes 6 has no challenge. The only challenge you face is that enemy armies are quite strong. Thats all. Gameplay is so easy, strategically one-lined and no-brainer.
Also, i understand that you may be a younger player (but maybe not a one who doesnt care about the gameplay) so with that i maybe insulted you a little, so sorry. Lets say that Heroes 6 is for dummies who doesnt actually care about game mechanics. The worst thing is that theres much more dummies nowadays than players who prefer gameplay. And you guys only play it because you love Heroes series. But theres some hope, as I see how the new Call of Duty games are getting criticised for the same problem. Heroes 6, unfortunately , is also a good example of this paradox - shiny graphics, nice animations, interesting creatures (well, some of them) and mostly important, Heroes 6 is excessively easy to play. And im 100% sure that nobody would ever play this game if not the graphics and a recent release - its interesting for us to see whats new has been done, right? Homm 3 is old and with poor graphics, but it has many players even now.
Hey DohMah, relax man. I was just joking  I'm sorry if the joke was too offensive, I understood your point and I agree there is a lot of flaws in the game.
I play since heroes 1-2, so I'm not that young. I just think, imho, h6 is a good game overall. But yeah, sometimes we have high expectations and what we get is a big disappointment (like I said for diablo 3).
Anyway sorry for the joke, If it offended you. I do that all the time with my friends hehe, then it's normal for me... and english isn't my native language, so this can make the things a bit more complicated. Anyway.. welcome!
And btw guys, anyone of you like the soundtracks? Ppl love to discuss about the gameplay mechanics, but some of the main reasons that I keep following this game are the soundtracks and all the artwork envolved. I just found this on utube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJAfIpAzaPE ... was a bit weird, I was like 'wtf man, vin diesel is playing the songs of my childhood games... on piano?!" No... That's Paul Romero, a badass great composer who did the soundtracks for homm games. I had some multiple eargasms a nice time listening this.
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