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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Lady Liberty was slain today
Thread: Lady Liberty was slain today [ This thread is 3 pages long: 1 (2) 3 ]
Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 30, 2012 08:41 PM

I believe the french health care system is the best, except the frauds.

There is a difference between

a) pay for stranger food, his house, his 15 kids (wealth care french stupid system)
b) pay for stranger illness.

In a) the stranger is supposed to feed himself by using his brain and body, get a work, search for solutions.

In b) he did not ask for illness, nor provoked it. This could happen to you, to me, to everyone. That's why I think that everyone should invest in health care, because prices are out of normal world, and a simple illness can disable you and your family for ever.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 30, 2012 08:42 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 20:43, 30 Jun 2012.

Mvass:
Because there is the real danger that people  who see their beloved die because they can't afford medical help will break into your house and kill you searching for the necessary money.

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Xerox
Xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 30, 2012 09:25 PM

Or there is just this concept, which I hope isn't unique to communist-Europe, that is called solidarity?

To me, ObamaCare (what a stupid name) looks like a compromise. A free, public healthcare insurance is way to socialist for the US, so instead you get forced to buy a healthcare insurance, sold by a private corporation?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted July 01, 2012 12:13 AM
Edited by Elodin at 00:14, 01 Jul 2012.

Quote:
You have to see this realistically.




I am looking at it realistically. Federal taxes are for the purpose of funding the federal government to carry out the enumerated powers the people grant it through the Constitution. A mandate for me to buy health insurance has nothing to do with funding the federal government and thus is not a tax and is not Constitutional.

What happened was judicial activism at its finest.

I believe in a small, un-intrusive government whereas some people seem to believe in the "nanny state" that has the power to dictate the every action of the population "for their own good."

The federal government has no business dictating that I must purchase any private product, that I must keep in shape, that I must eat properly or any such thing, regardless of who thinks it is "for my own good." The Constitution enumerates the things the federal government is to do. Dictating such things as I have mentioned is tyranny.

At least half of the states are extending the middle finger salute right back at Obama and will refuse to implement the dictated changes. There remain many years of legal challenges if Obama gets reelected.
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Revelation

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted July 01, 2012 01:05 AM
Edited by The_Gootch at 22:20, 02 Jul 2012.

Exactly Xerox.  We on the left hate the healthcare reform because to us it looks like a large subsidy for for-profit insurance companies.  I personally would love to see cradle to grave Medicare as an option for our healthcare.

On the right, well, read Elodin.  However, as everything with Elodin, there needs to be a caveat as not only republicans have really large balls and no memories, so goes the right as well--especially those who fancy themselves 'independent conservatives'.  

You see, the individual mandate is very much a conservative idea.  Hospitals were overflowing with patients who had no ability to pay for their healthcare.  People with no healthcare tend to use emergency rooms for their healthcare needs, as hospitals would not turn away a patient due to a lack of money.  This is very expensive so hospitals had to charge those individuals who in fact had insurance coverage a higher cost for their hospital stays.

This incensed conservatives.  Talk to a conservative long enough, they'll complain about all the free-loaders and those looking for a 'free' ride.  It was the conservative right who came up with the idea of no more free rides.  For that to be able to occur, the individual mandate was put in place in the state of Massachusetts.

Fast forward a bit to proposed healthcare reforms during the Clinton administration, it was the Republicans who championed the individual mandate as an alternative to Hilary Clinton's main proposals.  They embraced it.  They pushed for it, but alas real healthcare reform died early in the Clinton presidency.

Fast forward, what, seventeen years, President Obama pushes for healthcare reform.  It is taken up by the democratic majority, and in an effort to try to get a deal done, the democrats bring back the REPUBLICAN idea of the individual mandate.  There are Republicans still in congress, and one was a presidential candidate, that promoted the individual mandate back in the 90s yet when a democrat tried to incorporate their ideas, they called him a big government, tax and spend, politically correct, pinko, commie, godless, heathen, marxist, Kenyan liberal.

Make no mistake.  True conservative intellectualism is going the way of the dodo.  What you have in its stead is the seething resentment of ignorant white racists who are psychologically incapable of adjusting to the changing demographics of the U.S.  Whether or not Elodin is, that's not for me to decide.  What I do know is that he's a really not a nice fella who probably voted for Rick "maybe we in texas should secede" Perry.  I can smoke and joke with my southern brothers but when one of them starts talking seriously about discontent and secession, it makes me want to reach for my long rifle and remind them who won that war.

MOD EDIT: Removed verbal abuse of another HC member.


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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 01, 2012 01:43 AM
Edited by Corribus at 01:52, 01 Jul 2012.

Aside from the fact that it's a really warped view of history, it's also way too much in the hostility department.  You know we don't insult people like that here, Gootch.  Well, you should know, but apparently you don't.  You may disagree with Elodin's ideas and beliefs, but here we respect his right to hold them, just as we respect everyone's right to believe whatever they wish, and their right to express those beliefs publicly.  That's the foundation of intellectual discourse - both on the web and in real life.  You should hold yourself to a higher standard, especially given how much you like to criticize the low standards of others.

In the future, please try to frame your opinions without resorting to personal attacks.  Otherwise, next time your silence will be longer.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 01, 2012 02:17 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 02:29, 01 Jul 2012.

Quote:
Mvass:
Because there is the real danger that people  who see their beloved die because they can't afford medical help will break into your house and kill you searching for the necessary money.


Not really, you can always sell an organ or two. I mean, If you dont have the money, you die. No job? Who cares! Its that simple, at least thats the attitude I get from people. I think it is inherently impossible to create a perfect healthcare system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjermDZ1qfI

I guess Eldoin's view is Social Darwinist, quite ironic.

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Xerox
Xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 01, 2012 03:54 AM

What's wrong with the terrible socialist european healthcare system then?

I've heard that some republicans are saying that people in Europe are DYING on the streets because the queues are so long. I don't know if that's just BS, but if its true - then I don't know if I should laugh or cry.  

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 01, 2012 08:50 AM
Edited by mvassilev at 08:50, 01 Jul 2012.

JJ:
If they try to do that, I'll shoot them if I have to. Their need is not a valid claim on my wealth. "With enough brutal force the thieving rabble can be kept in line."

Xerox:
If people feel solidarity with those who lack health care, they can pay for them from their own pockets. Charities exist. Not everyone feels the same way about the problems of strangers - is it right to force them to act as if they care?
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Eccentric Opinion

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted July 01, 2012 09:42 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 09:43, 01 Jul 2012.

Quote:
JJ:
If they try to do that, I'll shoot them if I have to.


That's really optimistic of you. I'd however bet any money I have (and that's nearly nothing) that they would shoot you first in 9 out of 10 attempts
Idk, some guys have really skewed vision of home defense abilities. Maybe that's why they cling to "freedom of guns" so much

Quote:
Not everyone feels the same way about the problems of strangers - is it right to force them to act as if they care?


I kinda wish the same solution would be used for army. I don't want to pay for an army. Yet gov people steal my money.
____________
I regret nothing, I expect nothing.
NONE OF YOU ARE SAFE!

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 01, 2012 10:59 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 11:08, 01 Jul 2012.

Quote:
JJ:
If they try to do that, I'll shoot them if I have to. Their need is not a valid claim on my wealth. "With enough brutal force the thieving rabble can be kept in line."


What makes you think that organized thieves would not murder you first?
A group is always more powerful than a single individual.


Quote:

If people feel solidarity with those who lack health care, they can pay for them from their own pockets. Charities exist. Not everyone feels the same way about the problems of strangers - is it right to force them to act as if they care?


Interesting point. Few people would care about those who dont have the money,and for that reason people would start dying on the street because of poverty,as if that is not the case in some countries.
Again, either "have money" or die.Social darwinism at its finest.

With that in mind, there should be money for everyone, that means there should be jobs for everyone. Are there jobs for everyone? More importantly, if you happen to have a job, does that earn you enough money?

This means those that are without money are destined to doom. Why such injustice? It reminds me of Colonial Britain and India. When there was a famine,1875–1900, people died in the millions there. Why? The english sold their reseves,those in power ignored the famine(The fittest survive,social darwinism was a trend back then.Ironic that it gets a trend today) and 26 million people died.

Since humans are inherently unfair, healthcare and food should be for everyone because there is no chance in hell income,money,food and everything else will always be available to everyone.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 01, 2012 12:00 PM

Mvass, you fail to see the point.
A society isn't a society because there is a border or something that glues people together. There must be a basic solidarity, that is, EVERYONE needs to feel that it is advantageous to keep to the rules.
Now, there is nothing wrong with different levels of wealth when it comes to luxury stuff, but if the difference in poor and not poor is dying or living - and it doesn't matter whether people starve to death or die from otherwise curable illnesses or health problems -, then society loses all coherence.

Also, children are in no way able to take care of things for themselves. Would you want to live in a society where sick or ill children would die when your parents couldn't pay the medical bills for them?
Also there is a problem with the medical profession. They HAVE to help - if they don't HAVE to help, they can say, no, I'm not helping you: sure you can pay, but I don't like you...
Which means, that docs would have to do a lot of work for free, which means they would charge a double fortune from everyone else...

So: you need a reasonable solution for the question of health care, and I repeat, there is no reason whatsoever NOT to deal with healthcare the same way as with education: Build a Public Health System from taxes that offers medical help for everyone for free - which would leave enough room for private institutions that would offer treatment for cash.
Of course the best would work not for the government salaries, but in the private sector of the health system, and Britain shows that this system needs constant monitoring and adjustment, but it has the advantage that it works. Also private organizations don't profit from the insurance crap.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 02, 2012 10:36 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 23:14, 02 Jul 2012.

Doomforge:
Most burglars don't carry weapons with them, because if they kill someone, the police will investigate the crime much more thoroughly and is more likely to find them. If they break into a house and steal something, the police will look at the evidence and do what it can, but if the burglar is careful, they can't really do much. But if there's a murder, they'll try much harder.
And anyway, you know the layout of your house better than a burglar does. If you hear someone moving around when they shouldn't be, you grab your gun from under your bed or from your desk, approach slowly, and point the gun at them.

As for the military, as I said numerous times, it's different because you benefit from military protection, but you don't benefit from someone getting heart surgery.

Seraphim:
"Organized thieves" are going to rob me to pay for their health care?

JJ:
Quote:
There must be a basic solidarity, that is, EVERYONE needs to feel that it is advantageous to keep to the rules.
Of course, but only if "the rules" are something that are actually advantageous for everyone to keep to. But why should "fund the health care of strangers" be one of the rules? If I have good health, a decent amount of savings, and health insurance with which I'm satisfied, how is it advantageous for me to pay for someone else's health care?
____________
Eccentric Opinion

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted July 02, 2012 10:38 PM

Fixed.  Not contrite.  He deserves it.  I've got plenty of qps to burn and for that piece of work I will burn them as necessity arises.  I said years ago I would do what I've been doing with him, challenging him on his bald-faced lying for example, and I've been at least consistent in that.

Here's something that puzzles me though Mr. Mod.  Why do you think what I wrote is a "really warped view of history"?

I hope you know that I do fact check, even if I don't bother to cite my sources very often.  I stand by my statement that the individual mandate was historically in fact pushed by conservatives and their republican tools alike.  And I stand by my statement that in an effort to try to get republicans to sign on with healthcare reform, democrats actually crossed idea lines to try to craft some kind of a compromise with their republican colleagues.  

Instead, this lot, this pack of duplicitous, bible-thumping, god-loving, woman-hating, poor and impoverished despising, equality is negotiable as long as white men maintain preeminence, pieces of trash (still talking about the modern republican party in case I've lost anyone) instead are treating government and the right to govern as some kind of birth right, and they will sabotage and delegitimize anyone else who is not them.


____________
"The trouble with America is
that when the dollar only earns
6 percent over here, then it
gets restless and goes overseas
to get 100 percent. Then the
flag follows the dollar and the
sold... too long to display...

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 02, 2012 11:22 PM

Yes, yes, I know you allegedly don't care about losing QPs.  You may care about flood protect, however, so if you've any wish to continue participating in threads here without having to wait weeks in between posts, you'll kindly follow the rules about harassing other members.  Remember I can set your flood protect as high as I please without touching your QPs.

As for continuing the conversation with you, I respectfully decline.  You're consumed with your hatred for a whole political demographic - you condemn a whole group of people based on a mere label.  Your rhetoric is far beyond the line of hyperbole, and its saturated with emotion - and if that's not a prescription for a hopeless, fruitless discussion, I don't know what is.

You're a great poster, Gootch, an intelligent individual with a gift for the written word.  I've always enjoyed your posts even though I've not always agreed with everything in them, and I've always respected you for your eloquence.  It's a shame you've come to the point where you just paint all people of conservative persuasion in the same unflattering monotone.  Nobody likes to be treated like a blank canvas, to be colored according to your personal whims.  It makes people turn around and walk the other way when you open your mouth to speak.  
____________
Moderating the OSM WOG forum is like being pecked to death by chickens.

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted July 02, 2012 11:58 PM

I actually immersed myself in their culture and gave them a chance to redeem themselves.  


Nevermind.  It isn't your fault really.  You clearly have a specialty and are very good at it.  The fault lies with me for ascribing to you an undeserved political acumen.  

Can I safely assume then there will be no further effort to engage in a political dialogue with each other?  And all that you ask is that I respect and abide by the CoC, and leave Elodin to you?  Sure.  Far as I'm concerned, he's very much your responsibility.

Maybe we could still talk about movies though. Like, for instance, The Contender.

Great politcal pic or greatest political pic?
____________
"The trouble with America is
that when the dollar only earns
6 percent over here, then it
gets restless and goes overseas
to get 100 percent. Then the
flag follows the dollar and the
sold... too long to display...

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 03, 2012 12:04 AM

Quote:

"Organized thieves" are going to rob me to pay for their health care?


Why not? When I said organized, I meant a bunch of thieves with knives or pistols. Again, even 2 guys are enough, unless you are chuck norris of course.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted July 03, 2012 03:01 AM

Quote:

Make no mistake.  True conservative intellectualism is going the way of the dodo.  What you have in its stead is the seething resentment of ignorant white racists who are psychologically incapable of adjusting to the changing demographics of the U.S.  Whether or not Elodin is, that's not for me to decide.  What I do know is that he's a really not a nice fella who probably voted for Rick "maybe we in texas should secede" Perry.



Hey, the race card. Surprise, surprise. Liberals often throw around the race card. That happens quite frequently whenever anyone opposes the liberal Messiah, Obuma. They have no rational counters to conservative ideals so they have to do something, I suppose.

As I have posted before, I am of mixed race. Rest assuredly I do not hate my black ancestry, my white ancestry my Hispanic ancestry, or my Apache ancestry. I am a "Hines 57,", as my mother described it. My ancestors were too horny to be prejudiced. However, I do not see how race relates to the matter being discussed, which I thought was an individual mandate to purchase health insurance and how that mandate infringes on individual freedom and does not rest on Constitutional principles, despite the ruling by the SC.

You claim I am not a nice fellow. That is your prerogative to think so. However, it is you who have been saying not so nice things about me without any reasonable reason in doing so. I have been trying really hard for some time now not to interject things which could be considered personal insults and to not respond in kind when insults are thrown my way.

Quote:
I said years ago I would do what I've been doing with him, challenging him on his bald-faced lying for example, and I've been at least consistent in that.



Of course anyone who says I have posted lies is not speaking the truth. Whether deliberately or not, I can't say. When I post something it is because I believe it to be so. I think I do more research than anyone else, generally, on the topics we debate. I quite frequently provide numerous references to back up my claims.

Quote:

Instead, this lot, this pack of duplicitous, bible-thumping, god-loving, woman-hating, poor and impoverished despising, equality is negotiable as long as white men maintain preeminence, pieces of trash (still talking about the modern republican party in case I've lost anyone) instead are treating government and the right to govern as some kind of birth right, and they will sabotage and delegitimize anyone else who is not them.



Of course everything you have posted in this paragraph is merely a smear against the Republican party and not at all based in fact. Painting the entire group of the Republican party (or even a majority) in this manner is a statement of prejudice, not of fact.

The reason conservatives oppose the health care mandate is not hatred of women, hatred of blacks, "because the Bible says so", "white supremacy," or any such nonsense. They oppose it because it is tyrannical. The federal government has no business dictating that an individual purchase any private product.
____________
Revelation

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 03, 2012 06:45 AM

Corribus, being an opponent to the healthcare reform whose posts, unlike Elodin's, might at least be worth reading, do you mind answering a couple of things, namely: do you oppose the healthcare reform in general because in essence it is an enterprise of the state and introduces additional taxes universally (i.e. for everybody); and can you propose an alternative yourself?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 03, 2012 07:38 AM

Quote:

JJ:
Quote:
There must be a basic solidarity, that is, EVERYONE needs to feel that it is advantageous to keep to the rules.
Of course, but only if "the rules" are something that are actually advantageous for everyone to keep to. But why should "fund the health care of strangers" be one of the rules? If I have good health, a decent amount of savings, and health insurance with which I'm satisfied, how is it advantageous for me to pay for someone else's health care?
Lad, it's always a little awkward to actually summon these visions - but there are not so many people who can afford a really expensive treatment.
Now whether you do have and pay for an insurance or not - it's ALWAYS the healthy people who pay up for the sicker folks.
Which is not so much difference from everything else in society. People who have no kids don't need school. People who do not drive a car or only for short distances don't need streets. Cures and treatments are developed only because it's clear that someone will pay up for them.
Everyone pays one way or another, because it MIGHT hit you badly - which is a fair deal, because it's a win-win situation: if you end up healthy - fine. If you end up with a high-cost illness - a blessing you can afford it.

But, as I said, an insurance isn't the best way to go at this, because an insurance is a profit-oriented private enterprise and hospitals, docs and so on are as well. So insurance-driven healthcare is basically a founding charta for organized crime.

Completely government based systems like the one in the UK are fine. UK expenditure p.p. is only 40% of those in the US.

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