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| Thread: HoMM: Creatures Evolution |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 02, 2012 11:23 AM |
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Medusas of ashan beeing Falled Coral priesteses... Yep its the same evolution I agree.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted July 02, 2012 05:12 PM |
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The neutral section is rather lacking.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 03, 2012 11:06 AM |
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Speaking of neutrals. Why aren't the Boss Creatures in here? A few of thems are undeniably evolutions of previous units.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Asheron
Famous Hero
Ancient
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posted July 03, 2012 04:43 PM |
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Edited by Asheron at 16:44, 03 Jul 2012.
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It's ok to disagree, each one has right to his own opinion  Since this is your thread, I won't certainly force my way of seeing things, but let me just state why race isn't so important in "evolution" - in your own list Rogues became dark elves. Berserkers became dwarves. As for abilities, compare H3 Pit Lord and H5 Pit Lord. Tell me they have 1% similarity. The name is only thing that connects them.
@War-overlord - Respect for awesome signature 
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted July 22, 2012 09:54 AM |
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@DarkLord : You still haven't uploaded Heroes VI townscreens 
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 22, 2012 10:15 AM |
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I have a Question based on the ordering of the OP
It looks like the ordering is done, by using the Last known faction the creature is in and then the the prewiuse forms are added.. in this logic the following creatures are wrongly positioned
Wolf (Now neutral) Listed as Stronghold/Barbarian
Pheonix (Now neutral) Listed as Sylvan/Sourcerer
Manticora (Now neutral) Listed as Dungeon/Warlock
Troll (Now Dungeon) Listed in Stronghold/Barbarian
Also an interesting fact (This time about heroes IV creatures)
All creatures in Heroes IV had belonged to some faction (based o the color of the rings) but only 8(16) could be bought in the town itself.
Why are creatures such as Megadragon or Sourcerer listed among the factions while creatures like Pirat and Ice Demon are listed as neutrals?
You should really think about how to make it, if you considere H-IV creatures that cant be recruited in towns as neutrals or as part of the faction.
In case one creatures like Traglodyt, Beholder, Troll, Megadrago, etc. should be listed as netruals.
In case two creatures like Ice demon, Pirat and Sea Monster should be listed in their particular faction.
In the Case of Ice Demon the Inferno faction.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted July 22, 2012 11:14 AM |
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Quote:
Pheonix (Now neutral) Listed as Sylvan/Sourcerer
Sorceress - it's she. Besides Sorcerer is a mage hero from Asylum in HIV.
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Troll (Now Dungeon) Listed in Stronghold/Barbarian
???
Troll never was in Warlock faction.
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All creatures in Heroes IV had belonged to some faction (based o the color of the rings) but only 8(16) could be bought in the town itself.
Not really, in HIV they are align based not on faction but on the alignment - life, death, order, chaos, nature and might. They are still neutral through as you can't buy them in towns.
It's like mummy or peasant in H3 - they should belong to Necropolis and Castle by any logic but they are neutral after all.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 22, 2012 01:38 PM |
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Apart from the minor grammar problem I do not see your point in the pheonix
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???
Troll never was in Warlock faction.
He wasn't? Well in that case the orange color in Heroes IV is not the color asociated with Chaos/Azylum witch ARE the Warlock/Dunegon representatives in Heroes IV.. or am I wrong. I think you do know that Azylum/Chaos town is the incarnation of Dungeon/Warlock and therfor the Troll does belong into it due to the fact that he has the same Align. But this brings up the fallowing question, that is the basic thing I would like to point out.
The Align system introduced in heroes IV is the problem here. It divided all creatures in the game into 6 groups. These groups worke similary as factions. There should be a uniform way how to approache these units.
you can
A: say that all units with the same Align represent the same aspect and therefor can be seen as one faction.
B: Say that only the creatures the dwelled in towns are part of the faction and other creatures with same align are just neutrals with the same Align.
If you chose approache A you would end up with all Orange framed creatures as part of the dungeon evolution part.
You you chose approcah B you would end up with the fallowing setup:
Faction creatures woudl be:
Bandit, Orc, Minotaur, Medusa, Efreet, Nightmare, B Dragon, Hydra
Neutral creatures would be:
Pirat, Traglodyte, Troll, Evil Eye, Megadragon, Goblin Knight
offcorce creatures like the Orc, or Nightmare, would be listed in the evolutions of different factions
But how does it look?
Efreet is for an unknown reason listed among the Inferno creatures. He has been only in two games and in the last one he has been in, he was part of the Azylum/Chaos, which are part of the Warlock/Dungeon evolution.
The Troll is part of the Stronghold faction even if he has not been part of its line-up since H2. Following approache A or B he could be part of either Neutrals or Warlock/Dungeon. But not part of the Stronghold.
As for other None town dwelling Chaos/azylum creatures. Most of them are listed in the Warlock/Dungeon Evolution, but the Pirat is listed as Neutral. Why? They are all in one category, they should be treated as one. Either make them all neutral or make them all part of the faction.
And this is Just one of the 6 factions from Heroes IV. And now try to think about a potential future discussion about the creatures from the Portal of Summoning.
In general If Dark Lord wants to make such a project or list, he should make some rules how to make it.. if the listing of the creatures will be based on the newest or oldest game title. What clasyfies neturals and what Faction units. Give it some shape and form. Right now it has very few of it. Either make the corrections and stick to the system you made or scrap the system and make an alphabetical order of creatures regardles of factions.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 03:40 PM |
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Quote:
How is the corall priestess not in the medusa evolution?
C'mon, Snake Hair? Eye of the Medusa...?
The actual creature called Medusa may appear in the Dungeon?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted July 22, 2012 03:42 PM |
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The creature that actually looks like Medusa already appearing in Sanctuary?
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted July 22, 2012 03:47 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 15:55, 22 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
He wasn't? Well in that case the orange color in Heroes IV is not the color asociated with Chaos/Azylum witch ARE the Warlock/Dunegon representatives in Heroes IV.. or am I wrong. I think you do know that Azylum/Chaos town is the incarnation of Dungeon/Warlock and therfor the Troll does belong into it due to the fact that he has the same Align.
From a certain point of view you are wrong. In HIV there are no such thing like town creature assotiation. All creatures belong to one of six aligns, not to the town itself. Even official creature line-up sheet which came with HIV have them all sorted not by town (like for example "Asylum", "Necropolis") but by align ("Nature", "Death"). Yes, all chaos creatures are in one line-up, but on the other hand, they are called Chaos, not Asylum.
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The Align system introduced in heroes IV is the problem here. It divided all creatures in the game into 6 groups. These groups worke similary as factions. There should be a uniform way how to approache these units.
Yes, I agree this is problem but this doesn't mean that neutral creatures belong to towns. They are not recruitable in cities (maybe besides Nature and even not all of tehm can be bought in Preserve), same as neutral creatures in HII (ghosts or genies can be aligned with Necromancer and Wizard for example) or in HIII (peasants and mummies).
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A: say that all units with the same Align represent the same aspect and therefor can be seen as one faction.
B: Say that only the creatures the dwelled in towns are part of the faction and other creatures with same align are just neutrals with the same Align.
I choose option B
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If you chose approache A you would end up with all Orange framed creatures as part of the dungeon evolution part.
Well, Ifrit is not a Warlock unit for sure and shouldn't be in his evolution part. Same for Troll, Orc and Goblin Knight.
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You chose approcah B you would end up with the fallowing setup:
Faction creatures woudl be:
Bandit, Orc, Minotaur, Medusa, Efreet, Nightmare, B Dragon, Hydra
Neutral creatures would be:
Pirat, Traglodyte, Troll, Evil Eye, Megadragon, Goblin Knight
of corce creatures like the Orc, or Nightmare, would be listed in the evolutions of different factions
Agree
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Efreet is for an unknown reason listed among the Inferno creatures. He has been only in two games and in the last one he has been in, he was part of the Azylum/Chaos, which are part of the Warlock/Dungeon evolution.
He was also in MM8, where he belong to Plane of Fire (same as Phoenix), so in-game wise he should be associated with elementals. But we are speaking about Heroes evolutions, not MM lore.
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The Troll is part of the Stronghold faction even if he has not been part of its line-up since H2. Following approache A or B he could be part of either Neutrals or Warlock/Dungeon. But not part of the Stronghold.
(S)He was in two Heroes games as Barbarian unit and in two as neutral (HIII and HIV). As (s)he was associated with barbarians and with nothing else later, it is right to put Troll into Barbarian evolution part.
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As for other None town dwelling Chaos/azylum creatures. Most of them are listed in the Warlock/Dungeon Evolution, but the Pirat is listed as Neutral. Why? They are all in one category, they should be treated as one. Either make them all neutral or make them all part of the faction.
Pirate is not Asylum unit, it's (neutral) Chaos unit.
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In general If Dark Lord wants to make such a project or list, he should make some rules how to make it.. if the listing of the creatures will be based on the newest or oldest game title. What clasyfies neturals and what Faction units. Give it some shape and form. Right now it has very few of it. Either make the corrections and stick to the system you made or scrap the system and make an alphabetical order of creatures regardles of factions.
Agree, current version needs a lot work, even town names from HoMMI are wrong. ;P
BTW - this is not really Creatures evolution, more like Factions armies evolution.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted July 22, 2012 04:22 PM |
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Doesn't this belong into the altar, more?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 22, 2012 04:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How is the corall priestess not in the medusa evolution?
C'mon, Snake Hair? Eye of the Medusa...?
The actual creature called Medusa may appear in the Dungeon?
Read teh Staff of Tides description. Medusas in Ashan are Coral priestesses that have chosen to whorship the destructiv side of Shelassa.. So the ansger is no for you and Yes for Avirosb. Medusas a certain way already part of Sanctuary.
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From a certain point of view you are wrong. In HIV there are no such thing like town creature assotiation. All creatures belong to one of six aligns, not to the town itself. Even official creature line-up sheet which came with HIV have them all sorted not by town (like for example "Asylum", "Necropolis") but by align ("Nature", "Death"). Yes, all chaos creatures are in one line-up, but on the other hand, they are called Chaos, not Asylum.
Apart from saying what I did in a different way and a bit more data background, I think you got the Idea what I was talking about.
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Yes, I agree this is problem but this doesn't mean that neutral creatures belong to towns. They are not recruitable in cities (maybe besides Nature and even not all of tehm can be bought in Preserve), same as neutral creatures in HII (ghosts or genies can be aligned with Necromancer and Wizard for example) or in HIII (peasants and mummies).
The differenc between the H-II and III examples you gave and H-IV. is that except for logical and historical features you had no true connection between the creature and the asociated faction/Town. In Heroes IV you this association in the form of the Align.
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Well, Ifrit is not a Warlock unit for sure and shouldn't be in his evolution part. Same for Troll, Orc and Goblin Knight.
Efriits dwell in the Asylum, the town which represents the Warlock evolution in Heroes IV how can he not be part of the town? He LIVES in it. If I had a Copy of heroes IV I could go into the game, build his dwelling and buy it. This is a Fact. And so would be the Orc if Heroes IV was the last heroes game we would have.
Following the desicion to use the option B. Asylum creatures = Faction, Rest Chaos Creatures Neutral, The Goblin Knight and Troll would be Neutral, in that case (Until Heroes V would come out and introduce their new forms)
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He was also in MM8, where he belong to Plane of Fire (same as Phoenix), so in-game wise he should be associated with elementals. But we are speaking about Heroes evolutions, not MM lore.
As you said, this is a Heroes only topic, so the fact if or if not a creature had different form/align in an MM RPG does not play any role. And btw. that what you wrote would be LORE wise asociated, not game wise, since there has never been a "Plain of fire" faction in a heroes game, only in its lore.
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(S)He was in two Heroes games as Barbarian unit and in two as neutral (HIII and HIV). As (s)he was associated with barbarians and with nothing else later, it is right to put Troll into Barbarian evolution part.
Neutral is also an Align, and not only did (s)he had it in two rather more popular games, but also since this evolution summary goes from 6->1, and neutral was the last align (s)he had, (s)he should be neutral. If I Follow the B desicion as will do so from now, since you chose it to be the one you prefer.
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Pirate is not Asylum unit, it's (neutral) Chaos unit.
Following your choice of option B, I agree he is. Then why are Evil Eyes, Traglodites, Catapult, Gargantua, Megadragon, Sorceress, Traglodite, FRENZIED GNASHER and Troll listed among factions when they all had the same position as he did in the last game they have been present in (Neutrals with and associated align).
And btw. you must understand that either we make a system and stick with it or this has no meang to be done. If you think it is OK to associate Wolves with Barbarians just beacuse yout think they fit in it, you could aswell put Gargaylesto Dungeon, Centaurs to Sylvan, Nightmares to Dungeon, Kenshi to Academy and Griffins to Nature, because I think the fitted those factions the best.
In other words. This was an exaggeration which I used to show why if we agree on a system, we should hold to it. (Especialy regarding the Troll and Efreet).
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 06:50 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
How is the corall priestess not in the medusa evolution?
C'mon, Snake Hair? Eye of the Medusa...?
The actual creature called Medusa may appear in the Dungeon?
Read teh Staff of Tides description. Medusas in Ashan are Coral priestesses that have chosen to whorship the destructiv side of Shelassa.. So the ansger is no for you and Yes for Avirosb. Medusas a certain way already part of Sanctuary.
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Yes, I know. I'm just saying that they could still put the in the Dungeon (and make them a dark counterpart of the Coral Priestess gameplay-wise). I mean like, we had a necro Naga, I don't see why we can't have some Medusas that on their studies of Shalassas more destructives ways grew enamored of the bond between Shalassa and Malassa during the healing of Asha and began to study Malassa ways too which granted them an advanced version of EOM that allows them to make their enemies believe that they're petrified (a la weeping angels)
See, there you have a backstory, in 5 minutes
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 06:58 PM |
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Or they are just going to make Dungeon Medusas and call them Gorgons instead. 
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted July 22, 2012 07:13 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 19:15, 22 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
Yes, I know. I'm just saying that they could still put the in the Dungeon (and make them a dark counterpart of the Coral Priestess gameplay-wise). I mean like, we had a necro Naga, I don't see why we can't have some Medusas that on their studies of Shalassas more destructives ways grew enamored of the bond between Shalassa and Malassa during the healing of Asha and began to study Malassa ways too which granted them an advanced version of EOM that allows them to make their enemies believe that they're petrified (a la weeping angels)
See, there you have a backstory, in 5 minutes
Unfortunately, we have already Medusa in-game:
SPOILER ALERT!!!
Quote:
Pirates of the Savage Sea
The one who summoned the Thunderbird has been revealed: the renegade Naga priestess Himiko, who leads a cult dedicated to the Wrecker, Shalassa's destructive aspect. Himiko has been hatching terrible plans, and must been stopped before her madness causes more deaths.
- You're a Medusa. A renegade Priestess of Shalassa. You know how every Dragon God has several faces? Arkath can be the hearth that warms your house, or the fire that ravages a city. Medusae worship the destructive aspect of the Water and are therefore heretics in the Lotus Empire.
@Dave Jame
If you allow, I will answer your post tommorow or later.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes, I know. I'm just saying that they could still put the in the Dungeon (and make them a dark counterpart of the Coral Priestess gameplay-wise). I mean like, we had a necro Naga, I don't see why we can't have some Medusas that on their studies of Shalassas more destructives ways grew enamored of the bond between Shalassa and Malassa during the healing of Asha and began to study Malassa ways too which granted them an advanced version of EOM that allows them to make their enemies believe that they're petrified (a la weeping angels)
See, there you have a backstory, in 5 minutes
Unfortunately, we have already Medusa in-game:
SPOILER ALERT!!!
Quote:
Pirates of the Savage Sea
The one who summoned the Thunderbird has been revealed: the renegade Naga priestess Himiko, who leads a cult dedicated to the Wrecker, Shalassa's destructive aspect. Himiko has been hatching terrible plans, and must been stopped before her madness causes more deaths.
- You're a Medusa. A renegade Priestess of Shalassa. You know how every Dragon God has several faces? Arkath can be the hearth that warms your house, or the fire that ravages a city. Medusae worship the destructive aspect of the Water and are therefore heretics in the Lotus Empire.
@Dave Jame
If you allow, I will answer your post tommorow or later.
Ummm I didnt know that. Still fixeable if the hypotethical Dungeon xpack happens after the DLC. "Branded as heretics by the Eternal Empress, the Medusae, have found in similar-minded dark elves a haven for their profane practices..." for the upgrade add Malassa powers and done. Mind you that english is not my mother language and I suck at writing but you get the idea at least
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 08:02 PM |
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yeah but the Ashan Medusa is more like the Sea Witch from W3: TFT than some outcast, underground naga who worships Malassa
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 08:15 PM |
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yeah but the Ashan Medusa is more like the Sea Witch from W3: TFT than some outcast, underground naga who worships Malassa
I know. That's why I said "if the hypothetical Dungeon xpack comes after thr DLC" (story-wise). Something like the Medusae of Himiko cult being heretics escaped/driven out of the islands after her death and taking refuge in the subterranean lakes and rivers and eventually meeting the Dark Elves.
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