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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Need to mod one problem out of the game.
Thread: Need to mod one problem out of the game. [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
OrganizedChaos
OrganizedChaos


Hired Hero
posted July 03, 2012 07:21 PM

Need to mod one problem out of the game.

Hello,
while I don't expect to get lucky with this, I will still drop this post here with hope of fishing for useful information regarding my problem. This way when all fails I will know that at least I tried my best.

I am trying to make a really balanced and action packed map for multiplayer. I use the "vanilla" heroes 3 SOD (complete 4.0 or something). The problem I am encountering is this weird crap that all the underground part of the map is always considered subterranean and Dungeon town has an advantage in unit speed because game regards them being on their native terrain regardless of me using grass,dirt,poop, whatever. I think this is really dumb because one town has advantage on HALF OF SPACE AVAILABLE. Another thing that bugs me and is related to this - battle grounds in the underground are always this crappy same cave that gets boring very fast.

If anyone knows modding or something useful like links to modding guides - please help me out. I really want game to consider terrain I use, and not some poorly thought out game mechanic over my choices.

Regards to all who is still enjoying this wonderful game in 2012 and years to come.

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OrganizedChaos
OrganizedChaos


Hired Hero
posted July 19, 2012 12:39 AM

BUMP

I can believe there may not be people skilled in C++ and hex editing to do this.

But no one even interested in the point is kind of sad.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted July 19, 2012 03:19 AM

Maybe because the thread wasn't placed in the propper subforum...I just moved it...let's see what happens..
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 19, 2012 03:57 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:26, 19 Jul 2012.

This is not hard to do with ERM. Once in underground, you check terrain tye, then loop on surface and find the corresponding tile-or have all types of tiles already set somewhere-, then reset the terrain to that tile with BA:P. It needs the surface to have all terrains built in, or will not work 100%.

Wog only, with vanilla you can shove it :P

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 08:22 AM
Edited by JimV at 10:04, 19 Jul 2012.

Also, of course, WoG adds dozens of new battlefields, and modders can easily add their own custom battlefields which suit their maps (such as a chess board).

If you look at maps from the Heroes III CD's, and maps created by the random generator, usually the undergrounds have a few tunnels, covering maybe 20% of the available space.  That is, the authors of H3 considered the underground as just that:  a few caves and tunnels, not a whole other world (although there are some exceptions).  I think it is another case of a program feature undergoing mission creep (being used in a way in which it was not originally intended).  I don't say that this is wrong, just that it is not fair to blame the original programmers when something that is not used as it was intended does not work perfectly for the new use.  (The same is true for Hero levels above about 70.)

P.S. Here is a slight modification of Salamandre's basic idea (because ideas evolve just like life does):

ZVSE

* TestUGbattle, JHV, July 19,2012

* uses v995-v996

!?BA0&v1000=1; start of underground battle
!!TRv998/v999/1:T?v995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get terrain type
!!TRv998/v999/0:T?v996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get surface terrain type
!!TRv998/v999/0:Tv995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; change surface terrain type temporarily
!!BA:Pv998/v999/0; reset battle position to surface

!?BA1&v1000=1; end of UG battle
!!TRv998/v999/0:Tv996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; restore surface terrain type

Update: I didn't allow for the case that the surface square is water with a Derelict Ship on it.  In that case the surface terrain will not change and the battle will take place on a ship deck.  It would be better to customize the script by choosing any empty surface square for a particular map, and using those coordinates (e.g. 0/0/0 instead of v998/v999/0).

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SAG
SAG


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted July 19, 2012 09:17 AM

Quote:
I am trying to make a really balanced and action packed map for multiplayer.

With the request to change hard-coded feature of the game (native land bonus) you are trying to create a really incompatible mod for 1 map only which will bring only 1 or few non-important game changes. I don't think that players will install new software on their PCs just to play 1 map...even very good one
Quote:
...and Dungeon town has an advantage in unit speed

I don't see problem at all:
on random maps Dungeon has tons of critical disadvantages in Underground which counter unit speed advantage.
on custom fixed maps you can manually set objects and resources and get perfect balance (IMHO fixed maps are even less balanced than random)

by the way - if you search some "balanced" games - I think you will be interested in THIS topic which applies to homm3 WT version.
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OrganizedChaos
OrganizedChaos


Hired Hero
posted July 19, 2012 10:29 AM
Edited by OrganizedChaos at 10:40, 19 Jul 2012.

Thanks to angelito for moving this.

JimV could you explain how to implement this one?
I added a button to Wogify options, used script 99 ERM 99.
Then I made an script99.erm with erm_s editor and copypasted the lines you gave me. Put that one to /s folder in data.
And it does not work

And if I understand correctly this script uses some fixed tile to determine the terrain? I need it to check what terrain is the atacked monster/hero is standing on and use that as reference to determine the combat terrain..

NEVERMIND, AFTER SOME FIDDLING AROUND I MANAGED SOMEHOW. DID NOT COPY IT CORRECTLY THE FIRST TIME.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 19, 2012 12:20 PM

As JimV said, it is better to set it to a solid tile. Make sure coordinates 0.0.0 in your map is not water, then use:

ZVSE

!?BA0&v1000=1; start of underground battle
!!TRv998/v999/1:T?v995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get terrain type
!!TR0/0/0:T?v996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get surface terrain type
!!TR0/0/0:Tv995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; change surface terrain type temporarily
!!BA:P0/0/0; reset battle position to surface

!?BA1&v1000=1; end of UG battle
!!TR0/0/0:Tv996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; restore surface terrain type


In case 0.0.0 are already water, change those values to any solid tile coordinates, in surface of course.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 12:26 PM
Edited by JimV at 12:52, 19 Jul 2012.

This is a slightly better version, but it assumes location 0/0/0 (upper left corner of surface map) does not have an object on it which can only be placed on certain terrain types (not counting black rock).  Otherwise, a different surface square should be used.

ZVSE

* TestUGbattle, JHV, July 19,2012

* uses v995-v996 & assumes 0/0/0 is not water w/Derelict Ship on it

!?BA0&v1000=1; start of underground battle
!!TRv998/v999/1:T?v995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get terrain type
!!TR0/0/0:T?v996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get surface terrain type
!!TR0/0/0:Tv995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; change surface terrain type temporarily
!!BA:P0/0/0; reset battle position to surface

!?BA1&v1000=1; end of UG battle
!!TR0/0/0:Tv996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; restore surface terrain type

I have tested this on a random map with no problems.

P.S. Salamandre's comment above was not showing when I posted, but it appears some minds think alike.

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OrganizedChaos
OrganizedChaos


Hired Hero
posted July 20, 2012 12:15 AM
Edited by OrganizedChaos at 00:18, 20 Jul 2012.

All this code makes zero sense to me, but my intuition says this script works by "teleporting" the battle to the upper left square of the surface layer while also changing the terrain tile of that square to what it is under my heroes feet where battle got initiated?

If so, it should be fine as long as there is not water in that target square?

I only play 144x144 maps, and not larger so if the first script uses tile that actually doesn't exist on my map (9xx.9xx.0) I do not understand why I need to change it. I mean it works fine?

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solitaire345
solitaire345


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 20, 2012 02:05 AM

All this code makes zero sense to me, but my intuition says this script works by "teleporting" the battle to the upper left square of the surface layer while also changing the terrain tile of that square to what it is under my heroes feet where battle got initiated?

Exactly.

I only play 144x144 maps, and not larger so if the first script uses tile that actually doesn't exist on my map (9xx.9xx.0)


Numbers 998, 999 and 1000 are not coordinates, but names for variables  that store coordinates (X, Y, L respectively) of battle whenever one happens (if you look harder you'll notice letter 'v' before them ). These are set by the game engine every time a battle happens.


I do not understand why I need to change it. I mean it works fine?

You don't need to change it if the upper left square of the map is passable (it gets no color when you turn on map editor's passability check).
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 20, 2012 07:31 AM
Edited by JimV at 07:39, 20 Jul 2012.

(Great explanation by Solitaire345.  Some additional thoughts:)

The best way to understand a script is to read the ERM Help description of each command.  For example (copied and pasted from ERM Help):

BATTLE ATTRIBUTES (BA)RECEIVER

Used to set up the attributes of a battle. Generally it makes sense to set up only after !?BA# trigger.(BA0/BA1/BA50/BA51)

Note: v998/v999/v1000 variables will store the location of the current battle visited. Also, you can refer to it easily with an indirect reference (for example: !!BA998:...; )

...

!!BA:P$1/$2/$3; Position on the map (for background picture and terrain bonuses only).
  $1 = x
  $2 = y
  $3 = Level

The original script will probably work okay all through most maps, but I thought of this possibility:  the actual battle square (tile) is v998/v999/1 (since the script only handles underground battles); suppose the square "above" that (on the surface, v998/v999/0) is water and has a Derelict Ship on it.  If you look in the Map Editor, at the Advanced Properties (using Greyface's h3wmaped.exe, version 3.3), you will see that a Derelict Ship can only be placed on water terrain.  What will happen then, I wondered, so I made a test map and tested the commands (another good way to understand ERM).  What happens is, the battle takes place on the deck of ship (as when a Hero in a ship does battle).  If you can live with this rare possibility, there is no need to change the script to the second version.

And there might be an advantage (not tested), because I think some battle properties, such as the location of obstacles and whether there are upgraded as well as unupgraded creatures to fight, are determined based on the x/y coordinates of the battle - but I don't know (didn't test) whether the BA:P command changes this (ERM Help does not mention it).  That is, changing from v998/v999/0 to 0/0/0 might mean the battles always have obstacles in the same places (although the type of obstacle should vary with the terrain type).

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2012 07:39 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 07:41, 20 Jul 2012.

Or get back at my first suggestion, which will work on every map.Check map size, loop surface for first battle, find first solid tile, assign vars to this tile coordinates then use those for every underground battle. The remark about battle obstacles is wise, he will have same configuration, which may turn very well or very bad in a few cases.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 20, 2012 07:56 AM
Edited by JimV at 09:30, 20 Jul 2012.

Another possibility which occurred to me is to do a random search for an empty surface square, similar to the one done in the Dragon Peaks mod (defaulting to 0/0/0 after, say 200 unsuccessful trials).  In this way the obstacle placement would not be the same for each battle.  However, each battle starts with the same random seed, I think, so a time-based re-seeding would have to be done, in which case re-loading and re-fighting the same battle would produce different obstacles, which some people might object to.

As usual, there are many different ways to do the script, with advantages and disadvantages.

Note in case there is some confusion:  I did not have a problem with the first script when the underground battle was below water (water tiles can be changed to land and changed back - in most cases), just when the tile above has an object on it which can not be placed on the terrain type of the underground battle.  In the latter case it appears that the surface terrain type will not be changed, and the battle will be fought on the surface terrain type.

P.S. Or one could edit all the water objects with the Object Text Editor so they could be placed on all terrain types ... then the first script should always work in the desired way.  Just a wild thought.  Probably not practical.

P.P.S. I have verified that always using the same surface location (such as 0/0/0) always gives the same obstacle locations.  Here is a random search version which gives different obstacle locations in different battles (or in the same battle, fought after re-loading):

ZVSE

* TestUGbattle2, JHV, July 20,2012 - Random Search Method

* uses v985-v986, v995-v996, FU996

!?BA0&v1000=1; start of underground battle
!!VRy1:T2048; generate time-based random seed
!!VRy2:R1/y1; set random sequence (seed)
!!VRv985:C0/0; set default surface location
!!UN:X?y3/?y4; get map size, no. of levels
!!VRy3:-1;
!!DO996/1/200/1:Py3; search for empty surface square randomly 200 times
!!TRv998/v999/1:T?v995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get terrain type
!!TRv985/v986/0:T?v996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; get surface terrain type
!!TRv985/v986/0:Tv995/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; change surface terrain type temporarily
!!BA:Pv985/v986/0; reset battle position to surface

!?FU996; x16= 1-200, x1=map size -1 (x,y=0 to x1)
!!VRy1:S0 Rx1; random x
!!VRy2:S0 Rx1; random y
!!UN:Ey1/y2/0; sets f1=1 if square occupied
!!FU&1:E; in which case we try again
* found a place
!!VRv985:Cy1/y2;
!!VRx16:S999; end DO-loop

!?BA1&v1000=1; end of UG battle
!!TRv985/v986/0:Tv996/d/d/d/d/d/d/d; restore surface terrain type

P.P.P.S. If this script is only intended to be used to "fix" a SOD feature in a custom map, then it could be used in a Timed Event instead of via wogification, and additional instructions could be added to eliminate all other WoG features (no creature experience, no Commanders, etc.).  Let me know here if that is what you want and I will explain further.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 20, 2012 01:37 PM

Sorry for all the long posts, but my ideas evolve slowly.  Here is a final (?) version:

ZVSE

* TestUGbattle2, JHV, July 20,2012 - Random Search Method
* basic idea by Salamandre
* uses v982-v986, v995-v996, FU996

* SoD version setup:

!#UN:P5/0; [Map isn't wogified]
!#UN:P4/1; [Players can not demolish towns]
!#UN:J4/32768; standard SoD AI Thinking Radius
!#UN:P1/1; [(Arrow) Tower Experience: 0-WoG, 1-SoD]
!#UN:P3/1; [Commanders are not enabled]
!#UN:P900/0; [Stack experience is not enabled]

!#VRv984:T2048; initialize random seed for first battle

!?BA0&v1000=1; start of underground battle
!!VRy2:R1/v984; set random sequence (seed)
!!VRv984:T2048; set new random seed for next battle
!!VRv985:C0/0; set default surface location
!!UN:X?y3/?y4; get map size, no. of levels
!!VRy3:-1;
!!DO996/1/200/1:Py3; search for empty surface square randomly 200 times
!!TRv998/v999/1:T?v995/?v996/d/d/d/d/d/d; get terrain type & subtype (in case of shore)
!!TRv985/v986/0:T?v982/?v983/d/d/d/d/d/d; get surface terrain type
!!TRv985/v986/0:Tv995/v996/d/d/d/d/d/d; change surface terrain type temporarily
!!BA:Pv985/v986/0; reset battle position to surface

!?FU996; x16= 1-200, x1=map size -1 (x,y=0 to x1)
!!VRy1:S0 Rx1; random x
!!VRy2:S0 Rx1; random y
!!UN:Ey1/y2/0; sets f1=1 if square occupied
!!FU&1:E; in which case we try again
* found a place
!!VRv985:Cy1/y2;
!!VRx16:S999; end DO-loop

!?BA1&v1000=1; end of UG battle
!!TRv985/v986/0:Tv982/v983/d/d/d/d/d/d; restore surface terrain type

Changes:
1) added a necessary comment.
2) added instructions (!#UN:P and !#UN:J) so that a map with this script will play like a SoD map (although it must be played under WoG in order for the script to work).  (These instructions should be removed if a WoG-style game is desired.)
3) added another variable, v984, so that if you save the game, fight an underground battle, then re-load the saved game and re-fight the same battle, you will get the same battlefield arrangement (which is what happens normally in Heroes battles).
4) added new variables, v982-v983, so that the terrain subtype as well as type is changed and restored.  It occurred to me that in battles on a shore line, I might see a shore line in the battlefield picture, and that if so, this is probably determined by the terrain subtype.

To run this script under WoG but otherwise have SoD conditions, in a custom map, copy and paste the script (ZVSE through final !!TRv985...) into a Timed Event in the custom map, as shown below:



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OrganizedChaos
OrganizedChaos


Hired Hero
posted July 20, 2012 02:40 PM
Edited by OrganizedChaos at 14:43, 20 Jul 2012.

Dudes, you are amazing. But. I have a lake which is not passable on top layer and a volcano which is the same on the lower layer upper left squares. Tested the first script, all battles use their respective underfoot terrains, battles at sea are at sea and I mean why modify anything if it works properly from the first time?

So if the first version of the script works well can you guys just add the combat obstacle randomization and pasta it in here?

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 20, 2012 03:12 PM
Edited by JimV at 15:29, 20 Jul 2012.

In any given map, the first version might work for all battles, and if it is only going to be used in a single custom map and the script always works in that map's battles, there is no reason to change.  However, the first version will not work as intended in all possible maps, for testable reasons explained above, and can be improved so that it will.  Since I would feel bad if someone tried the script in another map and got a bad result, which I could have prevented, I felt obliged to present the better version.

When the Heroes III programmers were told to add an underground level to Heroes II, they wrote code which worked fine in all the test cases they were given, with little tunnels and caves. But one of the programmers thought and thought, and asked, "Shouldn't we also consider the case of grass and snow?"  The boss said, "Are you crazy?  It took us long enough to get what we have working.  Who in their right mind is going to put grass and snow underground?  What we have works in our test maps.  Why should we change it?"

(Okay, I made that up, but it might well have happened.)

P.S. I wrote that before the edit to the above comment which added the sentence about combat obstacle randomization - however, I don't know what that sentence means.  The first version, when it works, should work exactly as a SoD surface battle works:  different combats in different locations have different obstacles, but the same combat re-fought (from a saved game) will have the same obstacles each time it is fought.  The final version should also work that way.  In between, there was a version in which all UG combats had the same obstacle locations, and a version in which the same combat re-fought could have different obstacle locations.  I don't know which of these is desired.

P.P.S. Darn, I didn't think of terrain overlays (e.g., Evil Fog) - I wonder if those are based on v998-v1000 or on the BA:P location - probably the latter.  I will have to test and add that to the script if necessary.

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OrganizedChaos
OrganizedChaos


Hired Hero
posted July 20, 2012 04:22 PM
Edited by OrganizedChaos at 16:35, 20 Jul 2012.

Okay I took your final(?) version and tested with some overlays.

Sometimes they work, sometimes they dont, strange. I think it recognized the center of the overlay(cursed grounds in this case) but a little bit to side it didn't recognize the overlay.

Hope this is useful, since you are doing all the work here

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 20, 2012 06:34 PM

Overlays are semi-tough.  Here is what I have so far:

ZVSE

* TestUGbattle2, JHV, July 20,2012 - Random Search Method
* basic idea by Salamandre
* uses v982-v986, v995-v996, FU996

* SoD version setup:

!#UN:P5/0; [Map isn't wogified]
!#UN:P4/1; [Players can not demolish towns]
!#UN:J4/32768; standard SoD AI Thinking Radius
!#UN:P1/1; [(Arrow) Tower Experience: 0-WoG, 1-SoD]
!#UN:P3/1; [Commanders are not enabled]
!#UN:P900/0; [Stack experience is not enabled]

!#VRv984:T2048; initialize random seed for first battle

!?BA0&v1000=1; start of underground battle
!!VRy2:R1/v984; set random sequence (seed)
!!VRv984:T2048; set new random seed for next battle
!!VRv985:C0/0; set default surface location
!!UN:X?y3/?y4; get map size, no. of levels
!!VRy3:-1;
!!DO996/1/200/1:Py3; search for empty surface square randomly 200 times
!!TRv998/v999/1:T?v995/?v996/d/d/d/d/d/d; get terrain type & subtype (in case of shore)
!!TRv985/v986/0:T?v982/?v983/d/d/d/d/d/d; get surface terrain type
!!TRv985/v986/0:Tv995/v996/d/d/d/d/d/d; change surface terrain type temporarily
!!BA:Pv985/v986/0; reset battle position to surface

!?FU996; x16= 1-200, x1=map size -1 (x,y=0 to x1)
!!VRy1:S0 Rx1; random x
!!VRy2:S0 Rx1; random y
!!UN:Ey1/y2/0; sets f1=1 if square occupied
!!FU&1:E; in which case we try again
!!TRy1/y2/0:G?y5; check for overlay
!!FU&y5<>0:E; try again if overlain
* found a place
!!VRv985:Cy1/y2;
!!VRx16:S999; end DO-loop

!?BF&1000/v1000=1; can't use BF for AI-AI battles
!!TRv998/v999/1:G?y5; get overlay
!!FU|y5=0/y5=225:E; exit if no overlay or winds
!!BU&y5=21:G2;         cursed
!!BU&y5=46:G1;         magic
!!BU&y5=227:G3;        holy
!!BU&y5=224:G4;        evil
!!BU&y5=222:G5;        clover
!!BU&y5=228:G6;        lucid
!!BU&y5=226:G7;        fiery
!!BU&y5=231:G8;        rocklands
!!BU&y5=229:G9;        clouds

!?BA1&v1000=1; end of UG battle
!!TRv985/v986/0:Tv982/v983/d/d/d/d/d/d; restore surface terrain type

The BU:G command changes the effect of an overlay, but not the appearance, because BU can only be used after the first BR trigger (which occurs prior to BF), and by that time the appearance has been set.  The above script sets the appearance to that of the underground terrain type, but not its overlay (if any).  However, the effect of the overlay is set by the BU:G command.  That is, if the underground terrain has a Cursed Ground overlay, only level 1 spells can be cast, but the ground will not look  cursed.

Also, in AI-AI battles, the effect of the overlay will be lost, because the BR and BF triggers do not apply to such battles.

An overlay could be added to the surface square with UN:I, but in my experience, objects which have no red or yellow squares, such as overlays, cannot be deleted afterwards with UN:O.  I will do some more experimentation on this issue, but don't hold your breath.

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OrganizedChaos
OrganizedChaos


Hired Hero
posted July 20, 2012 09:51 PM
Edited by OrganizedChaos at 03:32, 21 Jul 2012.

After some more testing I see that some random battles get me cursed grounds even when overlay is not present. This is strange ;D

Since I have your attention here and you know this stuff - there are some artifacts that make no sense to me, ill describe what I think is wrong with them and how I want them to work, and you tell me if that can be done with ERM.

Power of the dragon father - gives immunity to spells level 1-4. All is cool but can it be made so I can cast spells on my creatures, and the immunity be applied to when enemy tries to cast malicious stuff including dispell?

Orb of Vulnerability - I want it to brake natural immunities of the creatures but in smarter manner: make gold dragons susceptible to beneficial spells cast by self while keeping the immunity to malicious enemy casts?

About dispell - can it be smart and destroy enemy buffs while keeping the debuffs and vice versa with your own?

Spell Scroll - can you make hero automatically learn the spell on it if there is sufficient wisdom and a spell book owned when hero picks it up or receives it after battle or trades with another hero? Maybe same with books but I imagine that is too much hard work.

In other words I want to remove the down-sides of these artifacts. They bug me.

Cheers

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