|
| Thread: Equilibris MP - balance? | |
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
posted July 05, 2012 07:16 PM |
|
|
Equilibris MP - balance?
We did host a LAN party for an equilibris-based HoMM IV tournament. Even though we were mostly noobs in H4, things that came to my mind after the games were played:
1. Honestly, is there any way to keep a hero alive on a XL map? Every PvP we played ended up with "who kills the hero first wins" type of game. And we tried various stuff. Different formations, potions of immortality, angels, GM combat. Honestly, nothing works, especially vs. nature. 10 phoenixes will breath-attack through formations, and if you use the most loose one, your heroes will be sniped in the first turn by either griffins, phoenixes, or ice elementals (led by a hero with GM tactics for max speed). Most of the time, heroes get killed before even being able to quaff potions. Tight formations work well except against either Phoenixes or Black Dragons, because they kill heroes through other creatures...
2. I don't get why necropolis was nerfed so hard. Summoning now gives (at max level) 1 griffin per day. Necromancy, it's hard to raise 1 vampire per battle. it ended up with 65 vamps versus 130 Griffins, ridiculous! Idk where "necro imba" stuff comes from, too. Lack of morale = enemy fliers are likely to act first due to morale = dead heroes every time. it's not even a lottery, because they can't get positive morale themselves... Necropolis ended up with 0% winrate! Also their early creeping sucks unless there's some cheesy Order spell (but on the other hand, order hero gets negative morale often in a necropolis army).
3. Spells seem useful mostly for creeping. Player vs. player battles (after getting a few weeks' of growth of monsters) were solved without them. because the heroes were dead in 1st turn. Sure, hypnosis is awesome, but the problem is in casting it, because heroes are made of paper...
4. Combat (tree) is incredibly useless... GM combat still dies to a couple phoenixes or griffins in first strike. And damage with GM melee/ranged is pathetic..
5. Nature had 100% win rate (7 games won out of 7 played). Mostly due to speed of phoenixes and gryphons, but also due to extra dwelling through summoning portal. Water elementals were picked most of the time, and they are almost as much of a menace as genies. Okay, their spellcasting is a bit worse, but still, nature has 1 extra stack of units capable of sniping your hero in first turn...
I'm surprised nobody from Equilibris team buffed heroes' survivability (so they get a chance of using their spells instead of dying in 1st turn no matter what you do). Also, I'm surprised nobody buffed the useless combat tree.
Those thoughts may be a bit skewed due to the fact we played XL maps (and had weeks of development before clashes, with multiple heroes at levels 15-20 - we used one tactician and two mages per army, usually), but honestly, no matter how hard people tried, they just couldn't stop Nature from murdering their heroes in 1st turn. Breath attack is such a *****. Two uberpowered fliers with enough speed to reach your backline in 1st turn + a nasty magic shooter is also a *****.
(and yeah, Nature beats Chaos, the other town with breath attack. Mostly because, even if you trade heroes via breath attacks, Phoenixes murder black dragons afterwards, even without buffs. Now if your hero lives long enough to cast Dragon's strength, cat reflexes or even slayer on Phoenixes... lol)
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 07:29 PM |
|
|
I got 2 questions:
1.If NATURE is so good,why dont you choose nature for you at the very start of the game?
2.How much time passes before clash with the enemy heroes?
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 07:30 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I got 2 questions:
1.If NATURE is so good,why dont you choose nature for you at the very start of the game?
We played random towns.
Quote:
2.How much time passes before clash with the enemy heroes?
on the huge maps we played? 2-3 months, I think 
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 07:39 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Summoning now gives (at max level) 1 griffin per day.
I never take summoning,if I have the chance to not take it.
Useless ability for me.
Also there are artefacts that gives your army the fire resistance ability-so your troops become immune to the fire damage if second target.
Its true Nature has two spells that can be advantage for them in many battles-quick sand and terrain walk.
Dont you learn nature with one of your heroes to use these awesome spells for your advantage?
Should I mention Divine Intervention and Sanctuary or Hypnotize?
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 07:47 PM |
|
|
Umm, as I said, there was no way to cast spells. Because heroes were being killed in 1st turn. We saved before battle and re-played it 20 times trying to find a way to avoid 1st turn massacre. Different formations, etc. Nothing worked. There was always a way to kill all three heroes for Nature army in 1st turn.
We never found the artifact you mention, sadly. It would probably be of great help indeed. or wait, maybe we did, but it was a game without Nature/Chaos towns
I disagree summoning is useless in Equilibris. 50 extra griffins were rather hot 
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 08:32 PM |
|
|
did the heroes drink immo potions before the fight?
Quote:
Lack of morale = enemy fliers are likely to act first due to morale = dead heroes every time. it's not even a lottery, because they can't get positive morale themselves...
you can pick devils
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 08:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
heroes get killed before even being able to quaff potions
what
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 08:48 PM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 21:02, 05 Jul 2012.
|
Quote:
Nature beats Chaos
Your Fireguard ought to survive the first round versus Phoenixes. Meanwhile, the Thief should provide a quick start and wreak havoc behind the enemy lines later on. Another Thief should provide Pathfinding to your main army, which should contain Medusas - Phoenix killers. Also go for Efreeti.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 08:52 PM |
|
|
tehre's an option to drink them before combat? Wait, that changes things... 8 people and we haven't figured it out
still, it's just 1 extra life. Not sure if it's enough seeing how 10 phoenixes oneshot level20 barbarian with 70 defense.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 08:55 PM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 21:52, 05 Jul 2012.
|
Quote:
tehre's an option to drink them before combat? Wait, that changes things... 8 people and we haven't figured it out
still, it's just 1 extra life. Not sure if it's enough seeing how 10 phoenixes oneshot level20 barbarian with 70 defense.
There are potions you can drink before the battle (Immortality, Strength, Toughness, Mana, Cold), during the battle (all the others) and on the adventure map for extra movement (Endurance). Finally, you can drink the Health potion during and after the battle.
|
|
fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 08:57 PM |
|
|
well, the phoenix will have to attack him twice.
a level 20 barbarian can not beat 10 phoenix? you don't have any good artifacts?
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 09:03 PM |
|
|
Just the regular stuff. +10 attack, slayer sling, a bit of +morale/luck items, etc.
Well, it makes things different if you can drink potions on adventure maps, haha
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 09:04 PM |
|
|
|
maybe you can try an assassin (combat + death) the hero starts with a haste spell cast on himself. but I don't know if it is enough to play before phoenix...
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 09:26 PM |
|
|
GM tactics phoenix with morale, I don't think so 
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
murderdock
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted July 05, 2012 11:38 PM |
|
|
chaos vs nature
getting black dragons against a nature player who went pheonix was a huge mistake. black dragons breath attack counts as fire, which pheonix are highly resistant to. hydras, on the other hand, with extreamly useful abilities such as no retal and multi attack and the ability to buff them with stuff like cat reflex, first strike, and slayer, they can trade effectively with pheonix and griffins. plus you get twice the growth rate. meanwhile, speed your nightmares and rush up on his water elementals and try to score a couple stone gazes on his pheonix with you medusa horde
____________
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted July 06, 2012 01:34 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 13:36, 06 Jul 2012.
|
Quote:
Idk where "necro imba" stuff comes from, too.
Don't know how it is after the changes but in the original Heroes IV you just needed to get Grandmaster Necromancy to win against anything. Infernopolis has a terrible start but becomes really unfair later. Also try to play with Academy vs. fully undead army - most of your spells don't do s***. And then there are the Devils, who are - by far - the best hero killers in the game.
Quote:
Combat (tree) is incredibly useless... GM combat still dies to a couple phoenixes or griffins in first strike. And damage with GM melee/ranged is pathetic..
Maybe the tree got nerfed at some point but it was pretty useful initially. After these 2-3 months your hero should be able to survive the attack of 5 Black Dragons and still be able to put up a fight. Phoenixes? Bah!
Quote:
5. Nature had 100% win rate (7 games won out of 7 played). Mostly due to speed of phoenixes and gryphons, but also due to extra dwelling through summoning portal. Water elementals were picked most of the time, and they are almost as much of a menace as genies. Okay, their spellcasting is a bit worse, but still, nature has 1 extra stack of units capable of sniping your hero in first turn...
That's where Magic Resistance from the useless Combat tree comes into play.
If I were you, I'd try with one grunt hero developed for Combat + Immortality potion before the battle and maybe some Tactics staying in the front line and a secondary mage behind him (with crowd control spells, if available).
I agree that the Water Elementals are too great a pest though, as are most of the offensive spell-casters in the game.
|
|
fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 06, 2012 01:59 PM |
|
|
|
they deal even more damage than genies, due to growth. but in that case, maybe you are lucky he didn't pick fairy dragons... fireball...
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 06, 2012 04:04 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Don't know how it is after the changes but in the original Heroes IV you just needed to get Grandmaster Necromancy to win against anything. Infernopolis has a terrible start but becomes really unfair later. Also try to play with Academy vs. fully undead army - most of your spells don't do s***. And then there are the Devils, who are - by far - the best hero killers in the game.
Equilibris nerfs necromancy to a point where you get maximum of 1 vampire per stack of tier 3 and tier 4 creatures. You get ghosts, mummies and other stuff from lesser creatures. Over the course of the game, you may get a few extra vamps, but that's really all - you mostly get garbage units. In comparison, Summoning was buffed to a point where you get 1 griffin per day. It translates to +7 weekly growth of griffins, and it's free. Iirc griffins have +4 weekly growth, so it's almost +150% each week for free.
As for order vs death... I had academy vs. death game. I played academy. I simply got a life hero and was lucky to get mass death ward. It wasn't hard to win My genies lolspammed mirror image at my titans which trampled everything in return.
Quote:
Maybe the tree got nerfed at some point but it was pretty useful initially. After these 2-3 months your hero should be able to survive the attack of 5 Black Dragons and still be able to put up a fight. Phoenixes? Bah!
Well, not sure. Keep in mind that with GM offense and artifacts, things get a lot worse 
Quote:
If I were you, I'd try with one grunt hero developed for Combat + Immortality potion before the battle and maybe some Tactics staying in the front line and a secondary mage behind him (with crowd control spells, if available).
Tactics is the single best ability in this game imho, it gives you both speed and morale (in addition to huge attack/def boost), which in return makes your units act before the enemy and reach his heroes in 1st turn, which means dead heroes. of course things look a lot different when you actually use potions of immortality on the adventure map (and we were oblivious of that option), but still...
I prefer three heroes myself (on XL maps). Limiting yourself to one magic school is too counterable (exluding the fact that 10 phoenixes counters heroes quite well, ofc ) I like adding a life hero to order/nature factions. The fact he can ressurect stuff and guardian angel them shifts priority of targets from the Tactics guy to the Life guy... which takes A LOT of steam from your most valuable hero (GM tactics guy). Also, making life hero crusader ain't hard, and that makes him have guaranteed morale. And that means you're pretty sure to cast mass X ward in 1st turn
And yeah, Phoenixes take only 50% damage from black dragons by default. now if you cast chaos ward on them... 
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 06, 2012 04:08 PM |
|
|
robe of the guardian... 
|
|
MSG-1-1
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 25, 2012 01:54 AM |
|
Edited by MSG-1-1 at 15:29, 26 Jul 2012.
|
Since nobody in this thread really know what they're talking about/ know how to play this game on pro level let me enlighten the "equilibris" for you a bit and then talk some tactics::
equilibris was made by players for players for multiplayer games.
99.9% of the games played were / are on maps that are normal size.
Because you play xl maps that are months and months of playing before the final battles, your armies tend to get extremely big towards the end.
your questions and answered:
1: immortality potions (immos) before combat, also drink potions that give 25% hp before battle, cast hydra health, visit fountains before combat.
BUT MAINLY: concentrate always on getting everyone gm combat and dont be lazy on picking up sapphires of defence. Dont spread your defence but consentrate on the 1-2 heroes u want to have alive.
I would never play a l / xl / map with atleast 4 heroes. Heroes mean control. 1 hero alive can easily overpower any creature on the battlefield. All castles are good so its a real surprise why nature stands out. I can tell you it doesnt matter if you have 10-15 mantises more or 200 waters more or whatever. All that matters is how you play your fight and what your heroes can do.. BTW the fact that you didnt know about the immos is huuuuuge. immos change how the game is played.
2. I wouldnt touch any of summoning / necro. Necro gives vamps that suck, nobody uses them in final battle anyway.They have 0 morale and theyre slow and easy to kill. The time you waste on getting summoning/necro and wasting precious levels on it doenst cut it. 1 / day griffin is just so little advantage that I would use my skills on something like combat , resistances, making a hybrid of 2 magic classes to get demonology / pathfilding / diplomacy hero u name it..
3. Maybe u could try playing the game on expert for starters. Makes it much harder, and instead of waiting for the creatures to pop in your castle you might want to expand faster than your partner using your heroes Its not possible to win creature fights with just creatures without losing at least some..
4: I hope you know that before anything else you get your tactician maxed, its the most important hero in your group. If hes down in battle your screwed.
So lets assume your tacticians are both awesome and alive and youre in battle. Lets say his phoenixes attack your tactician that has about 150-200 defence on a decent l-xl map. I can promise you that he will need atleast 20-30 of them to take him down on one blow. XL maps have tons of arts that u can use. Robe ofcourse as pointed. But also rings of health, dragon shield armour, + shield etc...
5: Phoenix is ok because its fast but its far from overpowered.
I bet youve never had your ass kicked by a assasin with a lot of speed combo casting mass cancel, 2 black dragons stacks that come flying and killing everything in their path..
Or a order city with 2 priests that can divine your dead heroes.. 2 hypno heroes, and a badass "wait" with nagas until theyre teleported and get double strike on your opponents tight formation...
The game is super balanced. Every city can win...
if you want some deeper advice you can send your ingame saves and i can check how your games went. Maybe give you a few pointers how they can be more interesting in the future.
gl playing ))
Gregz
____________
|
| |
|
|
