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| Thread: Israeli tourists killed in a bus explosion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 01, 2012 08:30 PM |
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Israel is no more a guest here than Palestinians. In times of the British mandate, way before the WW2 and the Holocaust, there was a very steady and gradually increasing Jewish community in Palestine. Saying that Jewish people are guests or invaders to the land of Palestine in general is just wrong historically.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 02, 2012 03:59 PM |
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Quote:
Now my question: if you kill 10 times more civilians than you lost, if you destroy all their homes and put them all behind living prison, how the hell you expect they don't want to wipe you? I would.
I've not said what I think about any of this other than, I think more "neutral" stances are needed. Because, if the outsiders have the same one-sided opinions as the insiders (as in the "other side" must do something) then there is not much hope is there?
I've already said I don't have the answer and asked for the solution.
As Geny said this tragedy goes waay back. The U.S. is mostly blamed nowadays but it was England that was there first. <imo> We swaggered into a difficult situation in the Mid-East much like we did in Vietnam when France left that region.
<imo> The issue at hand (for the world to deal with) is that the very nature of war has been re-defined and it sure as hell did not start in the Middle-East, it started on a global scale and all the powers began taking part.
Before the World Wars, dead-civilains were an accident; killing woman and children, cowardly and detestable. The Total-War was introduced by a Hero named Sherman "cough-puke-cough".
I am not interested in who "originated making war on the population, a strategic nessesity" just the fact that over time "it was accepted as a means of fighting war".
To keep this short; from Napoleon and the pagentry of war (a French general still displayed it in WW1, attacking with banners and music)the world is now at a result; where a combatant will stand in the middle of civilians and attack.
I'm on no side in this. I know enough history to realize this lunacy has been "accepted" by most of the world at one time or another.
The question to me is; how to stop it?
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Seraphim
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posted August 04, 2012 05:19 PM |
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 06, 2012 07:37 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 25 Aug 2012. |
Edited by Zenofex at 19:41, 06 Aug 2012.
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Quote:
The question to me is; how to stop it?
Well, let's see what are the obstacles then, because there's absolutely no chance to stop it if the things continue to follow the current trend.
On one side we have Israel, which is trying to survive in a pretty hostile environment. Fair enough, but the problem is that it behaves like a local version of the US, i.e. a bully which answers with a disproportional amount of violence to most threats, has an unofficial nuclear arsenal while publically whining against the nuclear program of Iran on every occasion and seems pretty eager to start a war against every potential or not-so-potential threat to its security.
On the other side we have the Palestinians, which are also trying to survive in a hostile environment, and the Arabs (and Iranians) in general, most of which don't have good feelings for Israel. Their problem is the ad hoc approach to the situation with their unofficall or not-so-unofficiall support for paramilitary groups like Hezbollah, Hamas and their kin which lead an unconventional and pretty unpopular type of warfare against everyone and everything on the other side of the barricade. In the past, some of the Arabic states have openly attacked Israel so they are hardly good neighbours.
At the moment the two sides are just fighting each other and that's that. Israel seems to feel secure, knowing that the US has strong military presence in the region and enforcing its usual policy of "do what we say or we'll drop some democracy on your heads", partially (but that's quite a serious part) because the US have its own serious interests in the Middle East. The anti-Israel group on the other hand relies on indirect approaches - because an all-out war would mean a war against the US and that's not smart - and could drag the whole thing to the end of the world if necessary. You could say that the two sides are at a constant, self-fueling stalemate which can be broken either by the destruction of one of the sides, or by forcing either of them or both of them to give up, or by addressing the reasons for the fight. At the moment nobody seems to care about the third option and the focus is on the first two and that is why the war will never end if the approach remains the same. A long ceasefire is needed to make the third option even potentially applicable though.
So, in short:
- the war will not stop if either side keeps being attacked one way or another because this is not a conventional war with clear battlefields. Israel has very strong financial back, at least at the moment, and the assistance of the world's most advanced miltary. Iran and the anti-Israel Arabic states and organizations have an effectively infinite supply of people which can be used against Israel if necessary. That said, the currently ongoing process of preparing a war against Iran only worsens the situation and hell knows what will happen if this war actually starts.
- the war will not stop while both sides openly make threats against each other. Israel has no friends in the region and relying on the US is a dangerous strategy in the long run. The Arabic paramilitary and "terrorist" organizations, particularly their methods, on the other hand are very unpopular in the west, especially in countries which have problems with their Muslim population so they are not likely to receive any serious international support for their actions any time soon. To stop the threats though, each side will probably have to give up some of its goals.
- the war will not stop until Palestine is fully recognized and granted territory, this is a must even if it's just because of its current weird transitory condition which can't last forever. If this happens, it is very likely all further steps to become easier to execute. The western diplomacy has no problems recognising small regions in the Balkans for sovereign nations when it suits it so it won't have problems with Palestine as well if the conditions are considered acceptable. Problem here is that this seems very unacceptable for Israel and the US doesn't seem to consider it an option either - so it's obvious where it should be started.
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xerox
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posted August 06, 2012 08:17 PM |
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I don't get why a two-state solution is so hard to accept. Is Palestine super rich on resources or something? Or is Israel afraid that it would become a haven for terrorists?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 06, 2012 08:30 PM |
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That was a bit simplistic, but pretty close to the truth (the way I see it) explanation. Until it got to the last part.
You mentioned 3 things that prevent peace getting any closer. The first two can be summed in - both sides should get their heads out of their @sses and chill. I agree with that, but that's not really an answer. Many have tried to make this happen and all failed miserably for different reasons.
The third thing was recognizing Palestine as a state. Again, I agree that this would help immensely, if done right maybe even end the whole thing. And you ended it all by saying that Israel and U.S. just don't feel like doing it. And while as simplistic as the rest of your post, this claim is too far from the truth for me to accept or agree with.
Do you think it's so easy to recognize Palestine as a state? Who would supply it with energy? It doesn't have power plants. Who would supply it with resources and supplies needed to survive? It can't produce enough by itself and isn't ready economically to buy everything. Alright, alright, I admit that this is all solvable. It needs serious consideration, but it's solvable if some other countries pitch in to help. But then tell me, what will it borders be? Will it include Jerusalem? If so, will it include part of Jerusalem or all of it? And what will come of Israel? Will Palestine be willing to recognize it as a Jewish state and leave aside all claims to lands within it?
I'm not blaming any side here right now. I'm just pointing out that it isn't as easy as saying "Well, congratulations Palestine, you are now an independent state. Let's have peace!".
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xerox
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posted August 06, 2012 08:34 PM |
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Jerusalem should become an indepedant country, like the Vatican state.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 06, 2012 08:37 PM |
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Thank you, xerox, for solving all our problems using a solution that neither side will accept.
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xerox
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posted August 06, 2012 08:41 PM |
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Israel is never going to accept that an indepedant Palestine gets a single piece of Jerusalem. The palestinians are not going to accept that Israel keeps it. So why not make it so that NEITHER of them yet BOTH control it?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 06, 2012 08:50 PM |
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Because the problem is not so much that both sides don't want to see the other get Jerusalem, more like - both want to have it. All of it if possible.
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xerox
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posted August 06, 2012 08:53 PM |
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But if nobody gets it, but everybody is allowed inside it, then in practic that kinda makes both get it. Since the city would be open to all jews, muslims, christians, buddhists, ateists etc.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 06, 2012 08:59 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 20:59, 06 Aug 2012.
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Many Jews, especially the religiously inclined ones, see Jerusalem as an important part of Israel. The place around which Israel was built. The reason their fathers came to this land in the first place. Passing something like through the people is a nearly impossible task. I'm not sure what exactly is the Palestinian stance on the subjects, but from what I've heard and considering that it is one of their most holy places, wouldn't be surprised if it is pretty similar.
And all that is before we even get into the subject of who will be willing to come and govern Jerusalem in willingly place himself in this vortex of hatred and bloodshed, and how will he do it exactly.
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xerox
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posted August 06, 2012 09:05 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:07, 06 Aug 2012.
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Doesn't Jerusalem already have ruling politicans?
But I guess those politicans like Israel.
Well, the situation is complex. But it won't get better when people keep provoking each other. Israel keeps expanding on palestinian land and outside of the conflict, communists provoke Israel and makes the situation worse with "Ship to Gaza".
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 06, 2012 09:06 PM |
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It does. They're called the Israeli government.
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Zenofex
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posted August 06, 2012 09:37 PM |
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Quote:
And you ended it all by saying that Israel and U.S. just don't feel like doing it. And while as simplistic as the rest of your post, this claim is too far from the truth for me to accept or agree with.
Do you think it's so easy to recognize Palestine as a state? Who would supply it with energy? It doesn't have power plants. Who would supply it with resources and supplies needed to survive? It can't produce enough by itself and isn't ready economically to buy everything. Alright, alright, I admit that this is all solvable. It needs serious consideration, but it's solvable if some other countries pitch in to help. But then tell me, what will it borders be? Will it include Jerusalem? If so, will it include part of Jerusalem or all of it? And what will come of Israel? Will Palestine be willing to recognize it as a Jewish state and leave aside all claims to lands within it?
Apart from calling my post simplistic and saying that the things are not simple, I don't really see you saying something. What is your opinion anyway. Do you have any?
You claim to know history, then I guess you know about Bosnia. The situation there can be considered even s*****er because the nationalities are 3, not 2, but you can put that aside. For some, probably simplistic reason the western countries decided to intervene there and divide the former state into 2 sub-states with 3 nationalities which were in very bad relations after the war. The result has many flaws (quite many actually) but for 17 years now, there's peace - something which the Palestinian region badly needs. So it's achievable, someone has to have the will to do it though. Putting the contested region under international supervision and control until the borders are decided is one way to do it but frankly I don't see Israel agreening on such a move, especially with the US on its back. I guess you see where I'm going.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 06, 2012 09:48 PM |
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My opinion? My honest opinion is that I know enough to understand that I don't know enough. This is a very complicated matter and I don't claim to have any real solutions to it. I just don't like people oversimplifying it and pointing an accusing finger towards Israel as if its the only barrier standing between this place and eternal peace.
I hope that diplomacy will resolve that. Yes, somehow I still managed to remain optimistic enough to hope that one day two strong-willed leaders will come forth and manage to make a breakthrough, just like Begin with Sadat and Rabin with Hussein I did in their time. I find it hard to believe that a forceful intervention from outside will work properly. The Palestinians views Israel as a foreign conqueror and they fight like crazy so they could live as they want. Controlling this place until it stabilizes will be nearly impossible imo.
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Zenofex
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posted August 06, 2012 10:08 PM |
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You hope but don't seem to believe that diplomacy will help but you don't believe that a forceful seperation of the sides will help either. Then what?
You see, it's pretty safe but also pretty cowardly to constantly claim that the situation in the Middle East is so complicated that nobody can handle it adequately. I hear it from pretty much everywhere, it sounds almost like a propaganda (and maybe it is). I guess that it means that people unofficially agree with the status quo - because if it really bothered them, they would have thought of something. So how does it help you or anybody at all to "know" these things but can't even make up your mind what should be done about them? Multiply yourself by a few billions and you get the global picture and one of the main reasons why there's no progress on the matter.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 06, 2012 10:23 PM |
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There are things that should be done, no doubt. For starters the attacks from both sides should stop, just like you said. This will build trust and enable talks to start. Then, all conditions should probably be forgotten, so that both sides can start negotiating without feeling like they are already in a losing position. Also, the indoctrination on both sides should stop, then at least the next generation will have a good chance to get something right without prejudice.
The problem is that all of this requires "bold" steps from both sides. Which means that it requires two strong leaders/governments at the same time. And that's not something that happens too often.
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xerox
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posted August 06, 2012 11:30 PM |
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The cat said to the fish.
"Let me climb on your back so that I can cross the river."
"But surely", answered the fish, "you will eat me."
"If I kill you, then I will drown." said the cat with confidence.
"Fine," said the fish, "jump on my back and I will take you across the river."
The cat jumped on the fish's back and mangled it, killing the fish and drowning himself. For the cat could not escape his nature.
I think the main problem here is that we're dealing with humans on both sides. It's very hard to prevent frustrated individuals from doing bad things.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
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posted August 07, 2012 08:34 AM |
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Quote:
There are things that should be done, no doubt. For starters the attacks from both sides should stop, just like you said. This will build trust and enable talks to start. Then, all conditions should probably be forgotten, so that both sides can start negotiating without feeling like they are already in a losing position. Also, the indoctrination on both sides should stop, then at least the next generation will have a good chance to get something right without prejudice.
OK, now we agree on something. But how to do it? Just waiting for the right people to pop up on both sides? And what if another, more devastating war starts in the meantime?
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