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| Thread: Israeli tourists killed in a bus explosion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Geny
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posted August 19, 2012 08:09 PM |
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Question: how many condemn resolutions by UN targeting Palestine organizations like Hamas are there?
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smithey
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posted August 19, 2012 08:15 PM |
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Quote:
@Smithey, if you actually read the topic, you'll see some suggestions for a resolution. Of course nobody here is going to resolve the problem with a magic wand but like I said previously - everybody who just cries "it's not that simple" and says nothing essential is just as useless as the people who are discussing the thing for the sake of discussion. If you just want to pose, you already did it.
Zenofex, with all due respect Im not gonna read 6 pages however if you wanna talk efficiency instead of wanting "to pose" as you call it, dont waste our time but instead simply copy paste what you think is a logical and a viable solution, that would be productive and that I can actually address...
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Salamandre
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posted August 19, 2012 08:21 PM |
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The meaning one or another gives to "terrorism" may be very different. Hamas is fighting against occupation. If you agree that Israel is occupying illegally Gaza (how could be that legal) then any action against occupation forces is triggered by freedom desire.
As I said I consider Hamas actions stupid because they have no chances to succeed by their feudal behavior. I guess this is the deep problem with all muslim societies, they don't see farther than their nose and go berserk in a second. The whole area around is burning nowadays and will probably cause the worst decline of all arabs world.
The solutions are different for both actors IMHO: arabs should become subtle, jews generous. One can dream.
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Ghost
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posted August 19, 2012 08:28 PM |
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I'm agreed with Salamandre. Defended the independence of Palestine for themselves.
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smithey
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posted August 19, 2012 08:38 PM |
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Smithey, frankly I don't get what you are trying to say. All we know is that since 1955 there are 65+ condemn resolutions by UN targeting Israel, each one implying Israel is opposed to peace process. UN represents a lot of independent countries, thus everyone who will give the anti-semitic (again) argument is laughable. It may sound to you dumb to give back territories but this is how peace works. You can 't grab someone's house then genuinely ask "can we be friends".
My personal belief is that Israel does not want peace. It manipulates the retarded arabs, getting them at the point where they offer constantly more pretexts to grab even more land. Within belief that Allah will solve everything, they simply do not get in their buried brain that they have to rally politically other countries to their cause instead of launching home made rockets against Israel bushes.
Im not saying its dumb to give back territories, Im saying its not viable, if you give back those territories you're left with 3.5mil jews with no homes, Israel is not France or Russia, you cant just move them to another city, there is no other place for those people, its a small country with too many people and nothing to do with them... If you say this is what you do but dont provide an actual way to implement your solution then its not really a solution, is it ?
If you really believe that Israel doesnt want peace, whats the motive behind it in your opinion ? Israelis prefer to have their families live in fear of suicide bombers and rockets over having them live in peace ? No such society man, do some politicians have hidden agendas ? probably on both sides but Israelis and palestinians as people, all they want is to live in peace, just to live and watch their kids grow up.... nothing special about Israelis/Palestinians as opposed to anyone else on this planet...
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Ghost
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posted August 19, 2012 08:43 PM |
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Murder is murder! A misdemeanor is a misdemeanor. Last U.S. can now say back off, but when?
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Midas
Hired Hero
Touching things...
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posted August 20, 2012 02:15 AM |
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I get the negotiation offers from the Israelis, but towards who exactly? a whole side of a hard-headed and determined political party?
The thing with the current condition in splitting territory is that by that logic, Israel could just keep on claiming the necessity of more land due to higher population. So they destroy homes that aren't theirs. You might say that's collateral damage but there has also been a conspicuous shift of territory through out the years (proven through the picture) which proves it not.
I respect both sides of the bulwark, and a mutual state of understanding is needed (in which we will hardly get, in my opinion). The line between a "reasonable disproportionate amount of retaliation" and "unreasonable violent retaliation" is blurred. One could just do the latter while claiming the former.
What I mean is no, a wholesale shift of territory cannot be used since we're in a state of time in which it just wouldn't work smoothly (if at all) I just agree that over-provocation and arrogance on one side and unnecessarily line-crossing reactions (some people say opportunistic? I wouldn't call it as that) is the source of the problem.
Now that we have started to identify the problem (which traces far back, more so than the current situation in which we are discussing)...
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Elodin
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posted August 20, 2012 02:43 AM |
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Israel has made concession after concession, all the while being promised peace. But the other side is a group of liars, terrorists, murderers, and so the peace was never achieved. It is hard to live in peace when the other side simply wants you dead.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted August 20, 2012 02:56 AM |
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It is hard to live in peace when the other side simply wants you dead
EXACTLY! The root of the problem must be found, I fear that military action or forcing Palestines to sue for peace is not the way, repression will only sweep the problem under the table, a solution must be devised that will benefit both sides. There were jews living in the Israel reason before, hell Israel didn't just appear out of thin air with a jewish majority. So what changed? What aspect of Israel provocated the Palestinians so much that they felt threatened or/and the need to attack?
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Seraphim
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posted August 20, 2012 03:01 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 03:14, 20 Aug 2012.
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Israel has made concession after concession, all the while being promised peace. But the other side is a group of liars, terrorists, murderers, and so the peace was never achieved. It is hard to live in peace when the other side simply wants you dead.
Yeah, concessions...
Invades country for terrorists
Creates an apartheid for civilians in Gaza.
Uses mossad to kill even innocent people.
Uses white phosphorus,clusterbombs...
Has Nuclear weapons.
Hamas is just a freedom force framed as terrorists. If hamas is a terrorist organization then every action Israel undertook against the state of Lebanon is terrorism and the killing of people in gaza as civil war.
Israel does not want peace because war is profitable. I find really guillible and naive to think that Israel just wants the best for its cizizens.
I have yet to see a country or state that does that.
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What aspect of Israel provocated the Palestinians so much that they felt threatened or/and the need to attack?
I can tell you that. Firstly, those palestinians or Muslims in general want all Jews dead. Apparantly, Jews are evil from the core and thus must die. Thats what they believe in, at least the indoctrinated fanatics.
You must really know how it is to believe in something irrational inorder to feel it. I know this from first hand. Balkans has its fareshare of demonizations.
They simply demonize Jews. On the other hand, I know how fanatical Rabi people can be. I actually could say that Jews are extremely nationalistic and think that the world owes them something.
In essence,we have a war with indoctrinated religious extremists and fascists.
They are equal. Its just that we are pumped with lies from the US that Israel is a democratic society or state. In fact it is a racist state because there are clearly discriminatory laws that only benefit Jews. That is very similar to islamic Dhimmis.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 20, 2012 08:32 PM |
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You're very good at throwing around accusations and labeling everyone as one thing or another, but if you take that out of your post, I don't see any real explanation or proof of what you're saying.
For example, what discriminatory laws are you talking about? Considering Israel is a Jewish state, there actually might be some (I can think of one of the top of my head), but I wonder which ones you are talking about?
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Salamandre
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posted August 20, 2012 09:25 PM |
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And you are very good to dodge by asking again same thing 
Maybe you should read the (long) list of UN targeting Israel resolutions, you will have your answer for every question. If you don't find them valid or don't recognize them any right to judge, then there is no argument on earth which can en-light you, arguing is useless. The fact is that Israel uses the self defense pretext for a hidden agenda, which contains deportation, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
History repeats.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 20, 2012 09:39 PM |
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Deportation, ethnic cleansing and genocide... pretty big accusations there. I'm not exactly sure where does deportation fit in with what's happening. Separation, yes, but if Palestine wants to be a country it will come anyway, no?
Ethnic cleansing and genocide... According to wiki there's a 2% population growth in the West Bank and 3.4% in Gaza. For comparison, Israel growth rate is 1.9% (also from wiki). If Israel has been trying to wipe out all Palestinians for the last half a century, it's really not doing so well, is it?
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smithey
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posted August 20, 2012 09:45 PM |
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If anything, this thread should teach you all one thing, dont ride the bus 
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Salamandre
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posted August 20, 2012 09:58 PM |
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The genocide of palestinians, compared to Rwanda for example, is of course out of comparison. However, in the sense that the Jews want to annihilate a nation, it is one. It’s not only the deaths that cause genocide. It is the will to destroy a nation too.
The Jews are ready to annihilate the Palestinians nation to get the Palestinian land. It is as simple as that and nobody cares.
Try to demolish homes in Florida and tell the Americans to get out! We the Chinese people want the land! See what happens…
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 20, 2012 10:08 PM |
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Oh well, if it's the thought that counts then why isn't anyone accusing Iran of genocide? It's leaders just recently announced that Israel is an offense to humanity and should be wiped out off the face of the Earth.
By the way, all that business about demolishing houses. You do know that Israel's government is demolishing Jewish houses too, right? Granted it doesn't demolish as much as the UN would like, but it still does that in places it knows it will not get in any arrangement.
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Salamandre
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posted August 20, 2012 10:16 PM |
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I think Ahmadinejad is talking big because that's how arabs leaders gain their reputation and get reelected. But seriously I doubt he will ever consider using a nuclear weapon, we know what will ensure. I don't believe he is of any threat but the problem with islamic countries is that you never know who will be next leader and if he is mind sane. On this matter I understand Israel (next) actions.
Of course, every nation is condemning what he said. However, there is no point to discuss with that guy or his fellows, they are in stone age. While Israel is a democracy.
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Zenofex
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posted August 20, 2012 10:36 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:37, 20 Aug 2012.
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Quote:
Oh well, if it's the thought that counts then why isn't anyone accusing Iran of genocide? It's leaders just recently announced that Israel is an offense to humanity and should be wiped out off the face of the Earth.
If talking was genocide, this planet would've been cleaned out of life long ago. You're grasping at straws with statements like this. What Ahmadinejad says hardly makes me like him more but here on Earth weapons are preferred to words if you want to actually kill someone - and guess who has more and better weapons and even uses them.
Iran behaves like the regional power that it wants to be but do you think - and be honest - that it will start anything of what its president is parading about with half the US fleet next to its shores and Israel on its other side with weapons no less advanced than the American ones? And that in pretty unpleasant international environment without even one unquestionable ally? With the Sunni Saudi Arabia south of it? What are they going to rely on, Allah's mercy?
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Seraphim
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posted August 21, 2012 03:45 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 03:52, 21 Aug 2012.
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Oh well, if it's the thought that counts then why isn't anyone accusing Iran of genocide? It's leaders just recently announced that Israel is an offense to humanity and should be wiped out off the face of the Earth.
Typical misinformation.
Since when is "Zionist" regime == Israel. Since when is it wrong to call a state "Insult to humankind"? Freespeech? WTF?
Oh and, he never said anything about wiping Israel from the face of the planet. Thats just BS from media.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/did-ahmadinejad-really-say-israel-should-be-wiped-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html
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Quote:
You're very good at throwing around accusations and labeling everyone as one thing or another, but if you take that out of your post, I don't see any real explanation or proof of what you're saying.
Ok, Link
Link 2
Dont mind the anti israeli sentiment there though.
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For example, what discriminatory laws are you talking about? Considering Israel is a Jewish state, there actually might be some (I can think of one of the top of my head), but I wonder which ones you are talking about?
I thought israel was a democratic"Multi-ethnic" state, not only jewish. Surprize, surprize!. Being a jewish only state makes you racist,no?
Imagine if Germany was to call it self as a German only state...
The laws I was minding where rights where jews get special treatment in Israel.
They are allowed to get an easy visa permit there just because they are jews.
They get "Special" social help from the government.
and so on... I never really cared because I have no desire to ever visit israel or become, somehow, one of its citizens.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 21, 2012 10:29 PM |
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Ok, so words are not the reason to define someone's actions as genocide. Then it must be actions. Salamandre said that what happens in Israel is not as bad as what happens in Rwanda. Can you give me an example of a genocide that is "on the same level" as what's happening in Israel?
@Zenofex
You want my honest opinion? No, I don't think Iran will nuke Israel. Although, I must add to it that it does worry me exactly because of what Salamandre said - you never know when Ahmadinejad or one of his successors will snap and push the button. You want another one of my honest opinions? I don't think that Israel will use military force to stop Iran's nuclear project. I believe that such a plan exists, but it won't be used and Israel just uses the possibility to put pressure on U.S. and the rest of the Western world to put pressure on Iran.
@Seraphim
Israel has declared itself since day 1 as a Jewish and Democratic state. It's written in both links you provided. I don't see it much different than the French Democracy (in France) or the American Democracy (in the USA). It doesn't mean that Israel is for Jews only, it means that Israel is based on Jewish tradition and the rest should get with the program or look for another home. Every country in the world does that. Or maybe where you come from Arabic is an official language as well? And Hebrew too?
The migration law is the one that came to my head as well. Yes, it's not democratic in that that it does not treat everyone equally. But there are many countries that give citizenship to people who never lived there, but whose parents have said citizenship. This is based on nationality. That is the basic idea behind Israeli migration and citizenship laws as well - Jews get it easier because it is a Jewish country.
Now about your links. I didn't really read the first one, because I saw that it tried to compare between Jews and Palestinian-Arabs. That has no meaning. Palestinian Arabs are just that - Palestinians. They are not citizens of Israel, so naturally they do not get the same right or duties as Jews or Israeli Arabs.
I'm reading the second one as I'm writing this reply. I see the definition of apartheid and so far can't see any connection with Israel, considering that it talks about population of the country, which again does not include Palestinian Arabs.
Ok, the land laws. The fact that a government agency owns most the land is not nationalistic. It's more socialistic really - the land is in the hands of the government rather than private hands. There was some saying there about Arabs living in ghettos... WHAT?!? Most of the north of Israel is filled with Arab villages and some of the major cities in Israel (Acre, Haifa, Tel-Aviv Yaffo) are mixed cities - have both Jews and Arabs living in them.
The ABSENTEES’ PROPERTY LAW is one of the problems in the negotiations between Israel and Palestine. Basically, it says that anyone who during the Independence War got cold feet and decided to wait it out in one of Israel's enemy countries until the Arab countries win screwed himself over big time. Because the Arabs didn't win, and people who basically tried to fight Israel lost the belongings they had in it. Not the nicest way to deal with people, I agree, but since when enemies are treated nicely? And at that time they were definitely enemies because they went to enemy countries. Those who decided to stay and just lay low, held all their property after the war.
It's getting late, so I'll have to stop here. If you want I'll continue this post on a later occasion.
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