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Heroes Community > Turban Tribunal > Thread: A survey and a lament
Thread: A survey and a lament This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 23, 2012 10:37 AM

JJ, Ohfor got a warning in feedback thread, any attempt to continue on that subject will be considered spam and he will be silenced. Usually if I get a warning in a forum, I don't see what I gain to overcome it and provoke the mods.

IMO the entire thread was considered spam because of the warning, then deleted. I think there is no sense to discuss mods powers, they have it and that's it. Up to us to take the wise decisions if we want to stay in a forum. Forums are about sharing, not questioning who is right or solve personal issues, at least this is how I see it.

Will be a pity that you leave on such weird issue, you contributed a lot to H3 forums and gained our respect. If you feel you have nothing anymore to share with us, then good luck.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 23, 2012 10:43 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:06, 23 Aug 2012.

Good luck guys.
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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted August 23, 2012 10:56 AM
Edited by master_learn at 11:01, 23 Aug 2012.

Thank you

Corribus,thank you for your hour given to write your thoroughful and reasonable explanation of the matters here!

@Salamandre,thank you!
Quote:
Forums are about sharing, not questioning who is right or solve personal issues


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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 23, 2012 11:09 AM
Edited by OhforfSake at 14:13, 23 Aug 2012.

I think it'd be nice to focus on one subject at a time. This thread is about the survey, i.e. the moderator action, not the subject of Xerox, which I hope can be continued in the feedback thread.

Survey
I do not believe having discussions at heroescommunity makes much sense, when on-topic, rules abiding, discussions can be shut down, simply because a mod says so.


People who've participated in the thread: (Sorry if anyone is left out, or falsely included in any of these)
JollyJoker, Lexxan, Master_Learn, Adrius, Tsar_Ivor, William, Elvin, Doomforge, Clay, Smithey, Mvass, Angelito, Meroe, Geny, Dimis, Xerox, Salamandre, Zenofex, Vindicator, Gnomes, Corribus, Miru, OhforfSake.

People who've replied to the survey:
JollyJoker, Lexxan, Adrius, Tsar_Ivor, William, Elvin, Doomforge, Clay, Smithey, Mvass, Angelito, Meroe, Dimis, Xerox, Salamandre, Zenofex, Vindicator, Gnomes, Corribus, Miru, OhforfSake.

People who've responded no:
JollyJoker, Lexxan, Tsar_Ivor, William, Smithey, Mvass, Meroe, Xerox, Gnomes, Miru, OhforfSake.

Total: 11/21 = ~50% of the participants in this thread does not approve of the moderator action.

Looking at the mod squads and Angelito's activity, it seems obvious that the following happened:

Feedback thread is active

Angelito logs on, forbids the feedback and logs off, without consulting other mods

Complaint about Angelito is posted, Corribus shows mods are a unified front by deleting said complaint in the feedback thread

Complaint in the Turban about both mods is formed. Only Angelito can moderate here, but he logged off after forbidding the feedback and won't be on for ~24-hours.

Angelito logs on, silences the thread maker and deletes the thread

Did Angelito consult with other moderators before deleting said thread? He was online for a few minutes, no other mods were online at the time and Elvin admitted the deletion was drastic. It's unlikely that Angelito, at any point, went over this with the other moderators, which is evident from his Posting History.
As Corribus have made clear, moderators stand together even when making an error, therefore I find it reasonable to remove the survey reply from all moderators, except for Angelito, as they have no chance of expressing their own opinion, but are forced to follow Angelito's.

People who've replied to the survey:
JollyJoker, Lexxan, Adrius, Tsar_Ivor, William, Clay, Smithey, Mvass, Angelito, Meroe, Dimis, Xerox, Salamandre, Zenofex, Vindicator, Gnomes, Miru, OhforfSake.

People who've responded no:
JollyJoker, Lexxan, Tsar_Ivor, William, Smithey, Mvass, Meroe, Xerox, Gnomes, Miru, OhforfSake.

Total: 11/18 = ~2/3 of the participants in this thread does not approve of the moderator action.

Considering the low amount of active users outside the heroes boards on HC, 18 members is quite a lot, even if mods were included. All in all, I think it'd be appropiate for the compromise Meroe talked about.

I suggest that moderators reflect upon and respond unified to why it's okay to stop two different on-topic, rule abiding discussion, which were, and still is, generating interest by:
1) deleting posts
2) deleting a thread
3) give out warnings

If such a response can't be given reasonably, I suggest lifting the ban of discussing Xerox penalty. Especially considering Xerox is still showing interest in this topic, despite what Angelito wrote.

I also suggest that Angelito in the future will be a better team player for his colleagues, as to avoid dragging them into similar incidents.



Since the mods answer in one front, I would prefer if Angelito would write his own reasoning, because it was his doing solely.

A moderator obviously has to apply common sense and not follow the CoC blindly, but applying common sense means you have a meaningful reason. It's not just a word you can use whenever you want to ignore the CoC. Moderators should be seen as equal, common members, who make an extra effort for a better community.
I believe the whole idea of being a moderator is to create a good community. A good community is where discussion prosper and people enjoy spending time. This requires maintaining order, but applying moderator powers without the need is also disturbing the order.
Therefore, applying moderator power is a fine balance of only doing it when necessary and only to the degree necessary.

Considering the complaints which would obviously follow, when applying moderator power despite no obvious rule violation, was it really the better choice to force shut the feedback of two different topics and deleting an entire thread?
Angelito wrote my two questions were replied to, and that's correct, but they weren't answered.
Please answer how it was not the wiser decision to not simply answer the questions, or if it bugs you so much, to ignore it altogether? I honestly can't see how it was a necessity to apply moderation in this instance, and I think the moderators could have acted in a smarter way, where no moderating was required at all.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 23, 2012 12:36 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 12:42, 23 Aug 2012.

christalmighty forf who the *FCK* CAYURZ.

This was THREE YEARS AGO. I've gotten penalties I would like to have reversed, that I -at the time- saw as undeserved, but I came to accept them and mewved awn ~ (and in retrospect, yeah I deserved them) I'd suggest Xerox to do the same.

Considering the mods' behaviour: Yes, it's a bit icky imo. More than just a bit, in fact. It's just VERY patronizing, from every mod involved.

Do I disapprove of the behaviour? I do. But I get where they're coming from. It's  an OLD, no, ANCIENT penality and honestly, there was just a MINOR error from angelito by penalizing Xerox without warning him first, in that thread.. I'm sure Xerox was warned in another thread, somewhere, but I cannot be bothered about spending hours sleuthing in the damp archives of this place.

What we know for certain is this:

1) Xerox was a known spammer at the time and posted his fantasy fanfics EVERYWHERE.

2) Everyone was *annoyed* by Xerox/Xerdux at that time and therefore, no one cared. Is that an excuse? No. But it doesn't change that Xerox was seen as a nuissance and broke the Coc. (and nitpicking about the EXACT definition of spam won't change that)

3) It's only ONE QP, who cares about *one* QP, rly? It's not like it's impossible for Xerox to start contributing again and get another one. OSM and the games' fora hand out QPs regularly, and Other Games is moderated actively too by DoomForge who hands out QPs for good, passionate posts. Shyranis appreciates a story, so why not write one and post it in the Tavern?  PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES RIGHT HERE, mayhap not to reverse the QP, but at least to recompensate it without all this *bad* drama and making the forum a better place.

4) WHY DO YOU CARE. Honestly, Forf whether you are a pedantic nag, an attention-seeker or justice crusader, you are taking the argument way too far, again. You are like a lawyer of a PROVEN CRIMINAL who finds one iffy detail in the juristical procedure that doesn't feel 100% right and use it as a means to "prove" the entire process was INJUST. This is an enormous exaggeration, true, but that is what you are attempting here and I'm having ~none of it~

I'm *done* talking to you ~ Kelly Cutrone

The penality isn't the issue. It's the MODERATORS DISMISSING THE ISSUE.

Mods, own up to the fact you handled this issue unprofessionally and poorly. You REALLY aren't helping your case here. Own up to your BS, don't *try* to mute the people who have LEGIT points towards your misbehaviour.  

Stop trying to patronize us like we are a bunch of five-year olds who just stole a cookie from your cookie jar. Stop patronizing us from your high horse, stop clitting together like a thicket of thieves.

You made errors. Own up to them. Don't try to cover stuff up by deleting thread, by replying condescendingly, diverting issues, mocking us or lumping us in with LUNATICS like OhForFsake. Had angelito just owned up to making that error while penalizing Xerox and no tried to shup everyone up about it, everyone except ForF would've DROPPED the issue.

Srsly.


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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted August 23, 2012 01:59 PM

Quote:
People who've replied to the survey:
JollyJoker, Lexxan, Adrius, Tsar_Ivor, William, Elvin, Doomforge, Clay, Smithey, Mvass, Angelito, Meroe, Xerox, Salamandre, Zenofex, Vindicator, Gnomes, Corribus, Miru, OhforfSake.
Please revise this and add my name. What you did was wrong and the mods are right.
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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted August 23, 2012 02:31 PM

Just to set the record straight...I don't think Xerox should have ever got the penalty nor do I think Forf's posts get deleted but I think he should have got penalised for what he was doing, that would have been a far better way to handle things. I also do think the mods have a power trip at times, one in particular more than most.

So with that said, Forf, I think you should really drop the issue now. I think everybody has said what they wanted. Same goes to you, JJ.
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Miru
Miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted August 23, 2012 05:47 PM
Edited by Miru at 17:47, 23 Aug 2012.

OForf I have a question for you. Is there any way you will feel satisfied or willing to drop this, other than an apology from the mods and a removal of the -QP (not likely to happen IMO)?
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 23, 2012 06:04 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 18:08, 23 Aug 2012.

Quote:
OForf I have a question for you. Is there any way you will feel satisfied or willing to drop this, other than an apology from the mods and a removal of the -QP (not likely to happen IMO)?


I don't require, or demand any of those two things, or anything at all. I really hope it'll be allowed to discuss the banned topic in the feedback thread again, but I know that's most likely not going to happen, and I accept that.

What I do think is maybe a 30% chance is a response to my suggestion in my previous post, and maybe a 5% chance of any of it getting a positive response.
Quoting the suggestion:
Quote:
I suggest that moderators reflect upon and respond unified to why it's okay to stop two different on-topic, rule abiding discussion, which were, and still is, generating interest by:
1) deleting posts
2) deleting a thread
3) give out warnings

If such a response can't be given reasonably, I suggest lifting the ban of discussing Xerox penalty. Especially considering Xerox is still showing interest in this topic, despite what Angelito wrote.

I also suggest that Angelito in the future will be a better team player for his colleagues, as to avoid dragging them into similar incidents.


Btw. I don't understand what people mean by "drop it". I don't think I've any leverage and I'll only keep responding as long as someone gives me something I think is worthwhile to respond to, like your recent post. No offense intended.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 23, 2012 08:20 PM

From the OP:
Quote:
Does it make sense to post in a community forum that has an uncanny tendency to swallow up posts and even whole threads? What does everyone think about this?


From Xerox's post on page 4:
Quote:
No. It is still not resolved and explained, and the main debate isn't even about the penalty if you haven't noticed.

To sum up, there is still an active discussion about all these issues. Killing the discussion would be like closing the Presidental Election thread a year before the actual election.


The latter post was followed by more xerox's posts about the same subject.


I vote that xerox's should be penalized for continually trying to derail a Tribunal thread off topic.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted August 23, 2012 08:28 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 13:26, 24 Aug 2012.

Edit: I was going to finish and perfect this, but duty called and I was required to jump through flaming hoops, so I'm sorry if you couldn't understand my previous version, hope this clarifies a few things:

Quote:
I vote that xerox's should be penalized for continually trying to derail a Tribunal thread off topic


I've got an issue with people complicating an already fragile situation, if you truly think that the mods are in the right, then they are more then adept at dealing with the situation, what they do not need is someone making things worse. Seriously, did you think your post was going to have a positive impact?

Or yours Master_Learner?

Quote:
Doomforge,I think there are people who have nothing better to do,instead of seeking and destroying forums.


Quote:
A whole family of trolls now!
Some penalties are in order,IMO.


I have no illusion that the mods will act or even consider these points, they have no other purpose than to distort, so please for the sake of civility, remove them.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 23, 2012 08:39 PM

Quote:
Well, in fact it's YOU (mods) who's making the fuss about something ridiculous because you are too bone-headed and self-righteous to simply take the completely unjustified penalty back in the name of justice (that doesn't care about time) - and on top of that you (mods) are deleting threads where the rabble dares to complain about that.

Yeah, no hostility whatsoever. In fact, we're one step away from a big hippy style 'we love each other' party.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 23, 2012 08:48 PM

I believe penalties have always been given either because the mod thought it necessary, or because of members hcm'ing the mod and the mod agreeing. Not by public discussion.

Therefore I'm convinced Geny is making a joke.

Thanks for trying to bring a little joy to this thread Geny.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 23, 2012 09:27 PM

Tsar, get a life, you lost all common sense.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 23, 2012 09:33 PM

I am puzzled myself. Tsar, you are not making much sense lately.
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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted August 23, 2012 09:40 PM
Edited by master_learn at 21:41, 23 Aug 2012.

A quote

Since this thread goes on and moderators keep responding,I will quote Val:
Quote:
So what do you do? Mostly stick with the crowd and do what they do. Everyone contributes, you contribute. Everyone leaves, you leave. Everyone complains, you complain. Nobody contributes, you keep quiet. So who is going to start then? Who is going to lead and be an example for others to follow? You can't make anyone do it. Only you can do it. Heroes Community depends on you.



The quote is taken from here-
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=5315
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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted August 23, 2012 09:49 PM

Tsar slept over it and is now posting in a mature and calm manner. Don't mess with him.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 23, 2012 09:54 PM

Back in the day I might have given you a peanut.
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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted August 23, 2012 10:06 PM

Just the thought of it Geny makes me thrilled! Thanks!

On the other hand, there's no feedback thread in Tribunal, so here we go: I propose Clay_Man's post in page 2 for a +QP.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 23, 2012 10:50 PM

Quote:

I also enjoy the hypocrisy, members trying to idiotically and aggressively to defend the mods (when there's no hostility?) by dictating what the mods should do. I believe that the hostile and provocative members should be penalized/warned, not only are they not striving for a quick and calm resolution, they're inciting hostility between the two sides. Not to mention all the off-topic nonsense that they spewed.


I'm gonna respond to this because I'm feeling you are talking about me, among others of course. And I have nothing else to do aaannnnnnnd.... I like to whine. So sue me.

This entire issue isn't black or white, Tsar. The Mods have made errors, but everyone screaming "MOD POWER ABUSE THIS IS BECOMING A HUGE DICTATORSHIP!!!1!" is blatantly blowing stuff out of proportion.

Defending the moderators isn't idiotic, nor is bluntly pointing out what they SHOULD have done. They made errors, yes. I am not denying that. None of us are, although *some* mods are trying to divert the subject by not owning up to their BS (which is *da ishu* regardless of what OhForF claims).

Nevertheless though, a lot of people are overreacting to such a minor DETAIL and immediately scream mod abuse. One tiny slip doesn't automatically mean a certain mod goes on a power trip.  Which is what you (and OhForF and Xerox and Mvass and others) have been implying.

Angelito sits on his high horse and I'm the first to admit that, since I openly and strongly dislike him. He is the one who made the errors of not warning Xerox first, trying to divert the argument and probably closed the first topic as well. What he needs to do -in my not so humble opinion- is own up to whatever errors, and at least apologize.

That *is* something that should concern the community, because such behaviour COULD lead to mods going on a power trip. However, unlike what a lot of people here claim, we aren't even CLOSE to reaching that point. I don't deny there are signs of what may happen, but I like and trust the current group of mods. Not *all* of them and I'm not foolish enough to just ignore their attempts to dismiss the issue.

I am ushering them to own up to their mistakes and not make those mistakes again, because that clears the beef between most people and takes away the issue. Also because I'm pious and self-entitled enough to annoint myself as a great mediator I guess.

ugh this is tedious so I'm not gonna drag this argument any further. (why can I not resist temptation?)

Off watching Survivor.

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