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| Thread: A survey and a lament |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV |
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 23, 2012 10:52 PM |
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I think those that are just here for trolling and lulz, like Geny, should get out if they have nothing to contribute to. Just a suggestion.
Hey, I take offense to that! Considering that most of people here repeat the same arguments over and over again or just plain scream at each other, I'd say I contribute to the solution of this problem as much as the rest of you. I just do it with more style.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2012 10:54 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:56, 23 Aug 2012.
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I think those that are just here for trolling and lulz, like Geny, should get out if they have nothing to contribute with. Just a suggestion.
Lexxan;
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but I came to accept them and mewved awn ~ (and in retrospect, yeah I deserved them) I'd suggest Xerox to do the same.
I've also had penalities that at the time, pissd me of but that in retrospect, I deserved. This isn't one of those penalities. Do you know the hollow feeling of getting a penalty that was unjustified and uncalled for?
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I'm sure Xerox was warned in another threa
Nope.
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1) Xerox was a known spammer at the time and posted his fantasy fanfics EVERYWHERE.
That wasn't spam. I even made a specific thread for it in the end, specifically because I realized that some people might get annoyed (though nobody ever gave me that hint) and received a QP for it. My literature projects are very real and have evolved a lot since then.
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But it doesn't change that Xerox was seen as a nuissance and broke the Coc. (and nitpicking about the EXACT definition of spam won't change that)
Where did I break the CoC in that specific post?
Let's discuss, what is spam anyway? Where do you draw the line? There are a number of recent posts in this thread that I would count as off-topic spam and that according to the CoC, should not be tolerated.
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The penality isn't the issue. It's the MODERATORS DISMISSING THE ISSUE.
Mods, own up to the fact you handled this issue unprofessionally and poorly. You REALLY aren't helping your case here. Own up to your BS, don't *try* to mute the people who have LEGIT points towards your misbehaviour.
Stop trying to patronize us like we are a bunch of five-year olds who just stole a cookie from your cookie jar. Stop patronizing us from your high horse, stop clitting together like a thicket of thieves.
You made errors. Own up to them. Don't try to cover stuff up by deleting thread, by replying condescendingly, diverting issues, mocking us...
This. The penalty is merely the catalyst. There needs to be a deeper discussion about how moderators use their powers and react the CoC. Is it acceptable that mods make up their own rules based on personal bias? Is it acceptable for mods to shut down discussions and debates when there is a demand for them? With great power comes great responsibility and I see many reasons for adding a new section to the CoC that deals with these type of issues.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 24, 2012 12:58 AM |
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Sorry, this should have been here, not the other thread.
Just as a NB to JJ's post about tone:
I try really hard to be fair and imparial in my dealings with members. I am not on a power trip or anything - I volunteer for this job and would step down easily if I no longer had the desire to do it, or if there was overwhelming opinion that I was not doing it well. Therefore arrogance can't really be a manifestation of my style. My powers are a way to make HC a better place, not to harm people or make me feel better about myself.
Sure, I lose my temper and get irritated from time to time, and my patience does have its limits - and I'm sure that occasionally shows in how I apply moderation decisions. I am human, after all. But on the whole I do try to be reasonable and polite to people who aren't maliciously trying to cause trouble. I try to issue warnings when I can, and I silence before issuing -QPs. I have tried my hardest to make the OSM a place where people can discuss whatever topics they wish without fear of reprisal, and I hope you'll excuse a bit of hubris when I say I think I've done a good job. The only place I enforce any kind of strict posting guidelines is the feedback thread. It's also the only place where I'm likely to delete things that aren't overtly spam.
This is not to say I don't make mistakes. But I do disagree when I am told that my tone is a problem.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2012 07:25 AM |
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Since you are not angelito, I'm going to give an explanation.
The fact that you are a moderator doesn't make you or your points in any discussion any different from Corribus, member of HC. It just gives you the means and the authority in all purposes connected with the forums you moderate to enact what you CONSIDER right.
That, however, doesn't mean you ARE right. Not more than before. If you would discuss the things you have the power to moderate, you'd simply have to respect different opinions. I, for example, think that the feedback thread is a thread like any other where discussion is possible and shouldn't be discouraged. Right/wrong - who knows?
My opinion is, for example, that there is nothing whatsoever that would speak against a discussion of moderation style, moderators, penalties and so on - in the feedback thread - and until doomsday. It's not that it would have any consequences just because of that. You see that in the current Tribunal threads. As a member of HC you may take part in the discussion or not, at your own discretion, as a moderator you may moderate anything inappropriate, and you even have the power to stop it altogether - although this would then be a "house rule".
In your function as "landlord" you have a certain control over the "house rules", and you can also enforce them. I think that most of the time you are simply doing what is necessary, but I generally do not like a threatening tone. Something like "One more word and I'll send you to muteland" is inappropriate in my opinion.
I mean, everyone knows the score, and a consistent and formal style helps:
WARNING TO MR. OHFORFSAKE: PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE FEEDBACK THREAD! THANK YOU.
Of course that's only MY opinion. There is nothing wrong with giving witty warnings, but things that sound ominously like, "Dare to make another noise, and I'll kill you here and now", just suck, especially when compared with what is actually happening. 24 hours posting-lock isn't, like, deadly or something.
Anyway - it should be said, that deleting a thread for the sole purpose of preventing a discussion of a moderational discussion cannot be part of the house rules, provided the thread is formally ok - that is, no things like abusive and offensive language.
Consequently, BACKING a moderational colleague doing something beyond any reasonable rule is the same thing than doing it yourself, discipline and coherence of the company or not.
Has this whole thing been blown completely out of proportion?
Yes and no. Yes, because the incident seems fairly minor. No, because it's real for everyone. As opposed to, say, whether Iran wants to nuke Israel or not.
Will I stop posting in the OSM because of that?
Yes.
Does it have any consequence?
No.
So why am I doing it?
Because talk is cheap. Sometimes you have to sacrifice something to give meaning to an opinion, and be it only for yourself.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted August 24, 2012 08:10 AM |
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Regarding the deletion of the thread.
I don't know, if the thread violated some rule, whereby it got deleted, but I've accepted we can't really test this, because the thread is gone.
Let's just say for a moment the deletion was within the rules. Then what I think is most problematic is that it was the person the complaint was about, who ended up doing all the judging.
I'd not have minded at all, if Angelito at least had consulted the other mods about the issue, but it's easy to see from his posting history that he acted on his own behalf eventhough the complaint was about him.
Regarding repeating the same stuff over and over again in the feedback thread. It must be partly my fault for not being very easy understandable, but the feedback was not the repitition of the same stuff again and again. If I didn't think it was possible to test the validity of the penalty I'd never have continued and I'd stop the moment it was either confirmed to be a decision within the rules or if there was no way of testing its validity.
As I see it, it went like this:
Ohforf: It doesn't qualify as spam.
Corribus: The information is lost.
Ohforf: Didn't you discuss it in the moderator forum?
Angelito: It's our opinion the penalty stays.
Ohforf: You didn't answer my question.
Angelito: Warning.
I'm sure the posts of mine could have been formulated better, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that I recieved new information as an answer to the old question. This new information meant we could actually maybe test if the penalty was valid or not.
Edit: Since Xerox seems to still be interested in this subject, I'd like to point out that Angelito's reasoning for shutting down the topic in the feedback thread has become invalid.
Hopefully it's alright that I suggest the topic will be allowed to continue, given Angelito apparently misunderstood Xerox' silence.
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Living time backwards
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 27, 2012 06:52 PM |
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So are we done now and can move on? Hopefully. 
Will angelito act similar in the future? Yes.
Has a member no right to complain about something he/she dislikes? Of course he/she does!!
If you take a serious look, I have done nothing to the 2 threads started by JJ and OFFS here in the tribunal. Why? Because it is completely ok for the members to question things here on HC, no matter what. If I would be such a power abusing monster as some of the members described me the last days, those threads would have been deleted by me pretty fast.
My english is by far worse than Corribus', so my explanations won't sound that professional as if I would write them in german.
But I will try to give you some thoughts about how a moderator here on HC after nearly 10 (!!) years learned to act.
- dramas will come and go every year, no big deal
- in every drama, members who aren't involved in the main issue will jump in and give their opinion (just take a bit of time and read back some dramas and you will se...), just to make the drama continue.
- in early days, I have spent a lot of time trying to respond to every post of those dramas to make clear why the squad or myself act like this or like that. You hardly can convince others, especially not those who are NOT in charge. That is what I have learned the last 9 years.
- If you make decisions, there will ALWAYS be people who disagree, because you can NOT satisfy all. You will find tons of examples in politics or even in your own company. If the government says "red is good", you can be sure, the opposition will soon say "blue is better", just to have a different opinion than the government and bring some people on THEIR side.
- That's why I have stopped explaining every single of my decisions, it is just a waste of time. People will find weaknesses in ALL things you do or what you are NOT doing.
- Fairness is still one of the main things following my actions. You may believe it or not, but it is exactly like that, because this is also a main thing you need to consider when leading people in real life, and that is what I do for many years now.
- I am pretty sure I won't reverse any penalty which is 3 years old in the future, because it just makes no sense.
- I am pretty sure I will reverse a penalty in the futre which is given shortly and questioned immediately, if it was handed out without reasoning.
- I am pretty sure I will still stick to my words in future, because this also is an important thing of leadership. People need to bank on you, need to know how you act when you say this or that. You can't say this and then act the other way. So if I will say: "Stop it, or you will regret it", you can be sure it will come that way. On the other hand, when I say "Go on like that, and you will be rewarded soon", it will happen also. Reliability is very important.
- I am still no friend (and will never become I guess) of members who think they have to jump in for others in personal issues where there is no need of. Most of the members here are mature enough to give us their point if view to certain things and we can then talk about that and decide. In this certain case, NOT A SINGLE MEMBER complained about that penalty 3 years ago. You either didn't notice, or you didn't care. The reciever himself even didn't care.
- We Mods do not get payed for our work. We do that in our free time, everybody with his/her own reason. The last thing I want is ruining my freetime with bad mouthing of people which I have never met in real life and which are only "strong" because of the anonymity of the internet. That's why I often say "Don't take this internet soo damn serious". This should only be a very small part of your life. But if you put that much energy in such an "unimportant" part of your life, you may lack energy for the bigger parts (family, job,...). That's why I have learned to not respond to every single post anymore, but to let the heat cool down and let all get back on track again.
- I am still online every single day. I read to all the necessary posts without loggin in, so you won't see me in the active line. I just logg in to post or to visit the squad. I am glad we have a native speaking Mod in the OSM for a while now, because I can tell you, it is very exhausting to read through all these posts every day, and most important, to get all the sense behind it as a non native speaker.
- if people want to leave because of all this torture and harrassement of the mods here, feel free to do so. You shouldn't stay in a place you feel uncomfortable. Yes it is true, without members, a forum would be nothing. But on the other hands, a forum would maybe a better place without members who are mainly present for drama seeking instead of making it a better place. Of course the OSM and the Tavern are part of this community. But still, the main idea of this site is the Heroes of Might and Magic series. Some of you might forget this every now and then.
- This post has ended now
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 28, 2012 12:05 AM |
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If you take a serious look, I have done nothing to the 2 threads started by JJ and OFFS here in the tribunal. Why? Because it is completely ok for the members to question things here on HC, no matter what. If I would be such a power abusing monster as some of the members described me the last days, those threads would have been deleted by me pretty fast.
..didn't you delete OFFs first thread in the tribunal? There was a third thread which disappeared, which is why this one was made -- the subject of the master post.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2012 12:24 AM |
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Yup.
Ton of words - nothing to the point.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 28, 2012 11:52 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If you take a serious look, I have done nothing to the 2 threads started by JJ and OFFS here in the tribunal. Why? Because it is completely ok for the members to question things here on HC, no matter what. If I would be such a power abusing monster as some of the members described me the last days, those threads would have been deleted by me pretty fast.
..didn't you delete OFFs first thread in the tribunal? There was a third thread which disappeared, which is why this one was made -- the subject of the master post.
As already stated a few times, the first thread was deleted, because OhforFsake just changed the place (OSM feedback --> tribunal) but still wanted to discuss the reverse of the penalty. I told him, the decision was made and there is nothing more to say about that issue. Any further posts to that issue are considered spam (trolling, blabla...call it as you like it). And spam in the wrong place (outside VW) will be deleted.
The second thread he opened and the third one opened here in the tribunal are about Mod actions in general. This is completely ok and in the right place. No need to delete or do anything else.
Hope this made it clear for most of you
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted August 28, 2012 01:14 PM |
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As already stated a few times, the first thread was deleted, because OhforFsake just changed the place (OSM feedback --> tribunal) but still wanted to discuss the reverse of the penalty.
Both the deleted post in the OSM feedback and the deleted thread in the tribunal was about mod actions in general.
This is really strange, because what you write here is completely different from how I understood Corribus over HCM's.
Btw. I'd write this to you over HCM, but as you merely deleted my last one without reply, I decided to do it here, no drama or hostility intended.
Edit: After writing this, I got a suspicion. I had already left this behind me, and I think everyone had. It's only because you, angelito, posted here, that the subject re-emerged.
However what you posted was information contrary to what Corribus told me. Do you, angelito, know what that tells me? That you once again did the EXACT SAME mistake, which brought up this problem in the first place.
That mistake is, in stead of consulting fellow mods on a delicate subject, you write on your own behalf, which the other mods then are forced to support.
I checked your posting history, you've a single post in the Mod Squad from before you re-emerged this thread. However looking at web caches, it's obvious this post from the mod squad is from after you wrote in this thread back around ~22/8 and not shortly before you re-emerged this thread.
The mod squad tries to act as a single unit, so they'll always back you up whatever you seem to do, but you do not take their advice first, which makes them easily look bad. Like with the latest dilemma, where you acted on your own behalf, and then the mod squad had to defend your decision. Wasting days on a matter which could have been resolved with a single post, and no moderator actions required at all.
Val was here the other day, reading through this thread. I suppose it was because mvass wrote to him. I don't know if Val took any contact to you mods, but I'm glad he did not act. I think it's a real shame that you, angelito, do not consult your fellow moderators more often, which ultimately lead to wasting the sites owners time, the time of your fellow mods, and the time of the community, over a matter which could have been resolved in a matter of minutes. All you ever had to do, was either look through your own posting history, see what you wrote in the mod squad and either tell:
1) Thread does not exist, so the evidence is really lost.
2) Thread exists, but it either doesn't tell anything useable, or it verifies the reasoning.
Not only would it have put an end to the matter, with one post, using a few minutes, in stead of days without even ending the matter properly, no it'd also show the community that:
A) You care enough about what you do here, to verify your actions no matter how long ago
B) There was no injustice.
It saddens me that not only have you not learned from your mistake, but you repeat it right after the fuss from the previous mistake has ended. Are you now going to go offline for a couple of days once again, just to re-emerge after the fuss is over?
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Living time backwards
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 28, 2012 04:04 PM |
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted August 28, 2012 04:18 PM |
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You need sex.
Badly.
Has someone ever told you how incredibly funny you can be?
That's the best post in this entire thread!
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted August 28, 2012 04:26 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You need sex.
Badly.
Has someone ever told you how incredibly funny you can be?
That's the best post in this entire thread!
*Jumps into the thread*
I second this motion!
*Runs away*
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2012 04:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
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If you take a serious look, I have done nothing to the 2 threads started by JJ and OFFS here in the tribunal. Why? Because it is completely ok for the members to question things here on HC, no matter what. If I would be such a power abusing monster as some of the members described me the last days, those threads would have been deleted by me pretty fast.
..didn't you delete OFFs first thread in the tribunal? There was a third thread which disappeared, which is why this one was made -- the subject of the master post.
As already stated a few times, the first thread was deleted, because OhforFsake just changed the place (OSM feedback --> tribunal) but still wanted to discuss the reverse of the penalty. I told him, the decision was made and there is nothing more to say about that issue. Any further posts to that issue are considered spam (trolling, blabla...call it as you like it). And spam in the wrong place (outside VW) will be deleted.
The second thread he opened and the third one opened here in the tribunal are about Mod actions in general. This is completely ok and in the right place. No need to delete or do anything else.
Hope this made it clear for most of you
Yes, it made it clear, that you are indeed interpreting the rules in a completely arbitrary way.
You should not just declare something spam just because you don't like the things that are discussed. Obviously we can discuss whether WE think a penalty is correct or not until doomsday, as well as we can flog any other dead horse as long as we like.
Of course you don't have to care about these discussions at all, but DISCUSS we can things, whether you like it or not, as long as it's done in a civilized way and the topic isn't, well, obscene or whatever topics must be to be off limits - what would be the difference between, say, discussing the next president of the US or whether we think a + or -qp is valid?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2012 03:46 AM |
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Having given it some thought, I was mistaken to leave HC. It's still enjoyable even if it's mismanaged from time to time. When I registered at HC, I agreed to abide by its rules - the CoC - and I will continue to do so. If a mod enforces the CoC, I will support them. If a mod enforces their own will outside of the CoC, I will oppose them and not grant legitimacy to their actions.
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Eccentric Opinion
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted September 24, 2012 03:55 AM |
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Cool story bro. Welcome back~ We missed you~ Have a nice Vodka and spam discuss in our OSM for a while...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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