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gnomes2169
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Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted September 18, 2012 06:25 PM |
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@ Seraphim:
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The west does not need to do anything. It is not the west that screams "Behead those who insult islam" but those muslims.
The only one who should start to understand first are Muslims. I am sick of people telling me "I should understand" them.
When you are raised in a militant society, then you will be militant for the reasons they tell you to be. It does not matter what context you present something or how you reason it out, the brainwashed civilian-soldiers will attempt to stamp out any "Heretical" imagery or icons. The people that act this way are actually specifically taught to not listen to or learn from or understand people that speak anything even slightly contrary to what they learn. Can you reasonably expect (note, I'm asking about the Logical Reasonableness here) such a person to understand you? Of course not!
What I think you fail to understand is, the majority of Muslims actually do not act like this or they are not absolutely brainwashed. Most can be reasoned with, and those that can't are often those who abuse their faith for personal power or individuals that are the lapdogs of those individuals. People (of all backgrounds, creeds and moral codes) are actually much more reasonable than one would think...
Oh, and most western advertising is (imho) insulting to more than just the Muslim faith. I would also be insulted if I came from a country where women and men go around in public fully clothed and then every damn channel I turned to had basically porn that advertised some trinket or toy that I wasn't going to buy anyway. Oh wait... We do wear clothing here (usually)... and basically every commercial is soft porn... So yeah, like Markur said, I'm insulted that the advertising companies put out this garbage. I'm insulted enough to actually punch the designer in the face... and I'm from one of the least militant backgrounds ever (Minnesota suburbs... basically Canada). And so, with this thing called "Empathy", I can understand why someone would act like that. True, I still don't think it's a correct or proper response, but I can understand them.
Edit: I see that some people responded, including my intended victim. Thus, the edit is moved to an actual post.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 18, 2012 06:33 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:45, 18 Sep 2012.
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You know there are some muslims denying evolution based on a fantasyland they created, they'll say to you "evolution has been proved wrong man, nobody supports it anymore, how can you believe in it in the 21st century?" If you listen to it closely you'll realize they took the "how can you deny evolution in the 21st century" objection and reversed it. It's kind of a defense mechanism based purely on wishful thinking.
When i read Elodin i see that's exactly what he does too. He's taking objections against religion and modifying them to atheism. He treats it as a religion because that's all his mind-set is capable of.
I agree with Seraphim on this. It's only a waste of time to discuss with people whose relationship with reality is what they want it to be. Best you can do is ignore them.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 18, 2012 06:40 PM |
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I am sick of people telling me "I should understand" them.
I can understand that but in diplomacy its a must-have.
@All
Again, I'm not defending bombers but one thing I casually observed waay back when was reading the news everyday was this; the west sent a diplomat to a group of countries with no regard for their beliefs.
i.e. If Dawkins was a country I would not send ambassador holy-roller to attempt peace.
Iirc, the West sent a Jewish woman to the Mid-East to do just that. Now, on the surface...does that make good sense? Btw, at the time I was raging against the militants but yet this fact still caught my attention.
<imo> You cannot negotiate with "anyone about anything" if the first move you make is to inform them...what they believe is mere hogwash...let's proceed
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 18, 2012 07:25 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:03, 18 Sep 2012.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyE4y2HRjyc&feature=related
Look at this video. It is a very good video which I think describes the issues at hand.
Source: 750 no go zones in France.
Ideas about it people?
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Oh, and most western advertising is (imho) insulting to more than just the Muslim faith.
Thats how advertising works. It is made to appeal to a specific type of people. I for example cant stand commercials about "Shampoos".
If it insults people for showing too much skin, goodluck in a lawsuit against them.
Personally, I have never had a problem with that. Its simply freedom of expression, that insults, slanders or disgraces nobody by name.
If you feel insulted by too much "Open" skin, then that is your problem.
I find it unreasonable to "Ban" or "Censor" such a thing because somebody got insulted. Censoring anything in the name of religions is the even worse than censoring the internet.
At least the campaigns against the INternet are done on cooperate interests and as such make sense on their behalf.
Censoring freedom of expression because of what? Some people feel insulted? Not a good reason.
You can always "ignore" or get along with it instead of paying attention or like some muslims do, starting a "Jihad" against it.
@Markur
I dont think regular people, like me, care about "Diplomacy" with foreigners.
In a state to state relationship, diplomacy plays a role.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 18, 2012 07:46 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 20 Sep 2012. |
Edited by Zenofex at 22:17, 18 Sep 2012.
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I know they're out there, I've been one of them but you know what?; too many non-believers don't cut your muster either. I constantly read "Jesus_xxxxx etc. etc. or God freakin-fill in the blank. Wth? If you ever became a Christian soon you would understand what is enraging the Muslims. I look past all of that crap and write it off as youth and ignorance but regardless, the West is disrepectful and is ever in the face with anything they damn well please. And the West wants to stroll in everywhere and make everyone like us and has since the 1500s. Bah!
So? Defend your beliefs then, nobody is objecting against that (except, of course, you become medieval in their defense). I'm talking about western religions' built-in urge to spread and the conflict that may arise when this urge encounters minds which are not exactly susceptible to conversion. However, it's very likely that you'll misunderstand me so I'll add some side notes:
First, I greatly respect the cultural and the philosophical contribution to the human civilization of pretty much all major religions, including the Eastern ones. Their core is usually both very complex and very simple, depending on how you view it, but it's always related to fundamental human issues. Some of these religions' followers are great minds and have expressed original and deep thoughts throughout the ages - thoughts that have meanings even well outside the respective religion's framework (if we accept of course that one religion does not depict the whole world on its own). I may not agree with the direction of their reasoning, i.e. the narrow context that they are put into, but that doesn't lower the value of these individual thoughts when inserted in the broader context of the respective civilization or even the entire humanity. However...
Second, to become successful among the masses, any religion has to be made both comprehensible and appealing to them. Apparently that can't happen by explaining the philosophical aparatus behind the respective teachings to people who can differ greatly and, more importantly, who in their majority don't care about it. So the religion of the masses is not the same thing as the religion of the philosophers and usually even its creators - it's a greatly simplified (or, as it's now more badass to say - streamlined) version of its original self. One can argue which is the genuine one but that's not relevant - the millions are important (by the way Lenin has one very similar thought). And speaking of this...
Third - I greatly dislike the organised or also the political religions. This is the border from where the ideas of the religion begin to infiltrate the material world not only of its followers, but also of the people in their vicinity. These ideas, no matter their original purpose, become a tool and as with every tool, it has no control over its user so all kinds of people can manipulate it for all kinds of persuits. If one religion has a power structure which can rally the followers of the said religion for whatever material purpose, then it's not any different than any secular organization, including the state, which could do the same. If the state itself has become one with this power structure, then the organized religion has both de facto and de jure control over the subjects in a given territory and is a complete substitute for a similar secular institution (some Muslim states) - but otherwise it does not differ from it very much. So you have... totalitarism. Call it theocracy if you want, it's the same thing. And the problem with the totalitarism is that it does not tolerate "incompatible" thoughts. So, if it's not clear already, for me the organised religion is just a mean to gain and hold power and dispose of the opposition when necessary.
That said, the things that you read about Jesus_xxxxx, putting aside the intellectual level of their authors, are in most cases a reaction to the centuries-long dictate of the organised religions, in this case particularly the Christianity, over the human mind. I strongly doubt that the people who write it have something against peace, love, tolerance and all other things Jesus_xxxxx preached (assuming that he's a real historical figure of course). It is also a reaction against the narrow-minded or stubbornly ignorant followers of the said religion - I mean you can't expect to claim that the world is less than 7000 years old the science is lying about pretty much everything and not to attract some negative attention towards your group (religion), including all the cool stuff like generalization and so on. If you choose to become part of a particular denomination, you choose to share its history and be associated with all the morons that belong to it too, like it or not. That's how it is and not only when the religions are concerned.
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Fyi, a few years ago, a major altercation happened in Pakistan when a company put up a large billboard-poster displaying a half-naked woman pushing some product. I'm not defending radicals by any stretch but I do try to see their stances and it seems very arrogant & foolish to keep shoving greed and disrepect across a land that actually "cares about what they believe". Honestly, I am sick of the soft-porn promotions here in the U.S. as if everyone living just grew their first pubes and zits and can't get a date. "Boy, you just know that water is good"
I don't quite understand your point here.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 18, 2012 08:19 PM |
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I doubt most muslims actually care about a movie on youtube... islamists, on the other end...
it was the 11 september not long ago, coincidence? maybe they are just using that movie as a justification? it has been released a few months ago already, and they only hear about it now? actually it's not even the full movie but just an excerpt. possibly taken out of context on purpose?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted September 18, 2012 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:25, 18 Sep 2012.
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Elodin, please stop bashing Atheism for the sake of this thread at least. If you have comments, please take them to the "Questions about Religion" thread, or make/ find a thread about Atheism. As of right now, your posts (and every post responding to you) are excessively off topic and continually derail the thread. If you have a comment about Muslims or the conversation that Markur, Xenofex and Artu are having then please, by all means respond to it or them, but please leave your personal crusade against atheists out of it. Please?
I responded to atheist posts bashing religion. When the atheists stop making false posts about relgion I'll stop responding to the falsehoods. Reasonable, eh? Or are you saying atheists have a right to bash anything and everything and yet not have their statements questioned? 
Atheists are on the crusade, not me. I am defending against their assaults. As always.
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Hypocrisy is one thing your bible never taught you apparently.
Personal insults. As always. I am not a hypocrite. I do my best to live my beliefs though certainly I am not perfect.
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Just ignore me from now on. I dont care what you think and I see no point in discussing anything with you.
Derailing a thread 5 times because you need to defend the "Unholy" sanctity of your religion is a good sign of militant-ism.
My religion is not unholy and I doubt you could tell me much at all about what I believe based on your previous comments.
If you don't want your comments responded to, don't post them. If you can't defend your comments that is not my fault. Rethink your positions and think about their consistency and logic. If you make statements I disagree with I'll certainly feel free to rebut them. I you wish to hold a private back-slapping conversation with someone you can PM them. Otherwise when you post your thoughts in the OSM you should expect the possibility that what you have written will be challenged.
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You believe that the lack of belief in god makes people bloodthursty, manaical evil monsters and that lack of belief means no morals.
Continual false statements. I've said most followers of religions, including of atheism, are reasonable people who want to live at peace with others. Militant Islamists, militant atheists, ect, are the problem, not the "average Joe" of religions.
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When i read Elodin i see that's exactly what he does too. He's taking objections against religion and modifying them to atheism. He treats it as a religion because that's all his mind-set is capable of.
Ah yes, more personal comments. No, you have no way of knowing what my mind is capable of. Certainly my mind is capable of considering things not to be a religion if they are not religions. Basket-weaving is not a religion, drinking a milkshake is not a religion, entomology is not a religion. 
But saying "God does not exist" can't be considered anything other than a statement of faith since there is NO evidence at all that God does not exist. I do not care if you cling to your religion or do not want to think of your religion as a religion. You have the right to believe anything you want to believe. However you chose to classify it, your idea that God does not exist is not a scientific idea, has no science to back it up, no evidence at all, and is an idea that has nothing but emotion and faith behind it.
Yes, I do show how many statements atheists make about theistic religions can be applied to atheism. Yes. And I find it amusing when atheists make many of the statements they make about theistic religion when their statements about theism are at least equally true when applied to atheism.
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It's only a waste of time to discuss with people whose relationship with reality is what they want it to be.
The thing is you are declaring that your viewpoint that God does not exist is a reality and saying those who don't share your viewpoint are delusional. Why exactly should I accept your viewpoint as "reality" when I do have evidence God is real and you have no evidence that God is not real? Your declaration that God does not exist does not make that the basis of reality.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 18, 2012 08:44 PM |
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wikipedia gives some interesting information, the film director fooled everyone it seems. I wonder if those death threats against him are serious? or if he received money from those same people who now threaten him?
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 18, 2012 09:23 PM |
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I doubt most muslims actually care about a movie on youtube... islamists, on the other end...
it was the 11 september not long ago, coincidence? maybe they are just using that movie as a justification? it has been released a few months ago already, and they only hear about it now? actually it's not even the full movie but just an excerpt. possibly taken out of context on purpose?
Hmm, it may not be coincidence. I guess to most guillible host, this is just more emotional fuel to hate America. Most if not all muslims consider the 911 to be an inside job. If anything this did, it was to make matters worse for the US relationship with the Middle east Islam.
But it is a good thing imo. I dont think there can be peace or tolerance with these "islamic fanatics, who sadly run the muslim world".
May I go and say that Obama's administration was too soft with these people.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 18, 2012 09:46 PM |
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I doubt this video is a new development rather than just a trigger to let off steam over per-existing anger. The Islamic world hasn't liked the U.S. for a long time and 2001-2003 turned simmer into boil. Social media has become a 6th sense for people to become far more organized, hence the new wave of stuff like the Occupy Movement or these embassy protests in the M.E., all happening nearly simultaneously across multiple countries. Or with the mass protests going on right now throughout China over anti-Japo sentiment. Japanese-run businesses & plants are closing down all over China right now because the protests are flaring up throughout the country rather than just in Beijing. The territorial dispute over the islands off the coast was a trigger event to set off pre-existing rage. Not that it affects China much, but unemployment will also amplify the level of protests/riots because the # of people that have nothing better to do with their life, so places such as Spain will naturally be more viable for mass protests compared to other places. And guess what? There was major drought in the central U.S. this year, which possesses 1/3rd of the world's grain production, the overwhelming majority of which is exported. There were droughts in grain-producing regions elsewhere also. That means food prices are going to explode in the upcoming off-season. I.E. - get ready for more organized protests and/or riots that very well might dwarf the current ones. Unemployed or ideologically charged people are one thing; hungry people is even worse because it doesn't discriminate based on character. Nobody likes being hungry. Just wait for it. 2013 is going to be a party, and not the fun kind. American embassies should probably start setting up heavy chain guns on their roofs while they're ahead of themselves. They gonna need 'em.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted September 18, 2012 10:02 PM |
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Elodin, the fact remains that you are still off topic. I don't care about the justification, but every post you have made in this thread either ignores the original topic entirely or pats it lightly and then goes on another rant about "Atheist mass murderers" and "Ignorant atheists not knowing that they are part of a religion". I am being as blunt and to-the-point as possible, hoping to show you that this is not the place for this discussion. Jeesh.
@Sepharim: You're right, I don't have the right to demand that such commercials stop being showed here. They also don't have the right to demand that I change my feelings about such commercials. But just because I don't have the right to force them to change because it "Disgusts" me, they (out of common decency) should not shove my head into the muck that is their advertising and stomp on it a few times for good measure. The best comparison I can come up with is that it would be like taking someone to this fun room that they have heard so much about, but only after you have isolated the one smell that they cannot stand or get used to no matter what. Then, you fill said room with only that smell and put them in it. All of the fun and good things things are still there, yes, but over all of it is that sickening, noxious smell and it taints everything. The simple solution is to stop breathing, but see you sort of have to do that...
It is much the same with the West. There are many good things here, but every time someone from an islamic country turns around there is some kind of advertising or other culture shock that assaults their senses in an incredibly negative way. You cannot (reasonably) expect that these people will want to integrate into a culture that, to them, idolizes sin and lust. You can, however, expect them to try and change the culture in various ways so that transitioning into their new home will come easier than it obviously would normally. Because it's hard to integrate into a society that you find disgusting and without morals, aye?
Oh, and in before "The only morals Islamic people's practice are violent/ holy book/ etc," if given ample time to justify their transition or acclimate to a different culture, Islamic peoples will adopt the more "Christian" or "Judaic" approach of following society's laws and norms as their laws and norms, and use their holy book as a kind of reference for their moral code. It is a societal pattern that repeats if the subjects are, here is the key part, treated like knowledgeable human beings, and given time and space.
Edit after seeing Blizz's post:
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Nobody likes being hungry. Just wait for it. 2013 is going to be a party, and not the fun kind. American embassies should probably start setting up heavy chain guns on their roofs while they're ahead of themselves. They gonna need 'em.
Sooner rather than later, one would think...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 18, 2012 10:08 PM |
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And remember that the average American household spends not even 10% of their income on food, including eating out, which they are very fond of doing. But in the Middle East, India, or China, they can literally spend almost half of their income just buying groceries. Increased food prices is a huge deal for the majority of the world. Probably over a billion people's budgets will be ****ed over, and everybody else still isn't going to be happy. Hunger is a revolution's favored predecessor.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted September 18, 2012 10:51 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:05, 18 Sep 2012.
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Muslims are not the problem. Militant Muslims are.
Clicky
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American Muslim leaders and organizations rushed on Wednesday to condemn the attacks on American diplomatic outposts in Libya and Egypt, issuing news releases and giving interviews that seemed aimed as much at an American audience as at Muslims overseas.
Referring to the anti-Muslim video at the center of the attacks that is believed to be American-made, they said that no matter how offensive the film, violence was unjustified and even un-Islamic. They stressed repeatedly that the film did not represent Americans’ attitudes toward Islam and Muslims. And they said they were appalled that a film that they said was so clearly intended to incite hatred and anger toward the United States had succeeded in doing so.
Imam Mohamed Magid, president of the Islamic Society of North America, an umbrella group of American mosques, denounced the violence at a news conference in Washington, appearing alongside a rabbi, a Baptist minister and the Libyan ambassador to the United States, Ali Aujali.
Mr. Magid said in a telephone interview that he and other American Muslim leaders had been contacting Muslim scholars in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and Mauritania to tell them that those who made the film “do not represent the American people.”
He said, “Those who did this act of violence fall into the trap of the people who want them to act that way.”
Representative Keith Ellison, a Democrat from Minnesota and the first Muslim to be elected to Congress, said in a statement that the video at the center of the attacks was “amateurish and stupid” and “deeply offensive” — not just to Muslims, but to “anyone who respects the faith of others.”
However, he said: “People need to understand that the United States government had no role in creating this film. In fact, the government has condemned it and the American people have rejected it; it violates the American value of religious tolerance.”
He added: “Responding with violence is never justified. And those who think they are doing so in the name of Islam are wrong and ill informed.”
Salam al-Marayati, president of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, an advocacy group based in Los Angeles, said in a statement: “America is our home and is home to Islam, like so many other religions. Anyone who attempts to promote the misconception that Muslims are not integrated into America is fomenting more fear and destructive behavior.”
Video of condemnations
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Revelation
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 19, 2012 12:20 AM |
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{quote]If you choose to become part of a particular denomination, you choose to share its history and be associated with all the morons that belong to it too, like it or not. That's how it is and not only when the religions are concerned.
I agree (mostly) with all you typed Zenofex but that's not new.
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I don't quite understand your point here.
It's hardly worth quoting again. It was a stab at the ad-man that sits on a glorious throne in the U.S. But that's a whole nother topic and I'll leave it alone and move on.
Peace your way.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted September 19, 2012 01:12 AM |
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So, if it's not clear already, for me the organised religion is just a mean to gain and hold power and dispose of the opposition when necessary.
For me, the "new atheism" movement is just "new racism." For those unfamiliar, "new atheism" is the anti-theism movement lead by atheist evangelists such as Dawkins and the late Hitchens. Dawkins and other "new atheists" think of themselves as elites who hold the truth and look down with disdain on the 99% of all people who have ever lived who believe in a divine being.
There is no justification for your claim that organized religion is just a means to gain and hold power and dispose of the opposition. What power is the United Pentecostal denomination exercising over you? Where are their hit squads knocking off members of other denominations. How about Assembly of God? Methodists? Southern Baptists? Nah, your claim lacks a basis in fact.
People who hold similar religious views come together to worship God, to minister to others, to be ministered to, and for other reasons. Organization helps in that regard. It is nice to have buildings to meet in and of course there are bills to pay associated with the buildings and coordination of ministries to the homeless, hungry, ect. Your view of organized religion is somewhat jaded and not reflective of reality.
Theistic religions have accomplished far more good in the world than organized atheism.
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That said, the things that you read about Jesus_xxxxx, putting aside the intellectual level of their authors, are in most cases a reaction to the centuries-long dictate of the organised religions, in this case particularly the Christianity, over the human mind.
Much of the Old Testament is poetry and is of quite good quality. Even if one does not believe in the inspiration of the Bible the scholar must admit the quality of the literature. The New Testament is more prose is is certainly considered high quality literature. Luke is considered one of the premiere ancient historians. People besmirching the intellectual levels of the human authors of the books of the Bible really have not done much (if any) research.
It is false to say Christianity seeks to dictate what anyone thinks. However, officially atheist states certainly have engaged in brainwashing and mind control. Christianity encourages one to love his neighbor and seek his neighbor's well-being. No one can be brainwashed into being a Christian, as becoming a Christian is becoming a student-follower of Jesus Christ and requires an ongoing spiritual transformation resulting from a desire to change and follow Christ. Christianity can't be dictated to the masses.
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It is also a reaction against the narrow-minded or stubbornly ignorant followers of the said religion - I mean you can't expect to claim that the world is less than 7000 years old the science is lying about pretty much everything and not to attract some negative attention towards your group (religion), including all the cool stuff like generalization and so on. If you choose to become part of a particular denomination, you choose to share its history and be associated with all the morons that belong to it too, like it or not. That's how it is and not only when the religions are concerned.
Of course Christianity does not teach the Earth is less than 7000 years old though certain groups may teach that. And I am unfamiliar with any denomination that says science is lying about everything. In fact Christianity is pretty much responsible for modern science.
Since you claim all members of a religion should be associated with whatever members of their religion did, I assume you also mean all atheists share the responsibility to some degree for the murders committed by Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, ect and with other such morons who were atheists who committed similar atrocities.
Personally I find it illogical that if a religion teaches one to love everyone and do good to everyone and to murder no one that you would want to hold the religion accountable for someone who claimed to be a member of the religion but who did not follow the teachings of the religion. A wolf who claims to be a sheep is still a wolf.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 19, 2012 02:42 AM |
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the video is quite hilarious btw. I guess many of those demonstrators didn't even see it. not sure they would find it funny, but it's really not worth all that violence. it's like starting a crusade because a guy who was drunk insulted your god
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 19, 2012 03:57 AM |
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I think we've had enough of atheism vs. religion in this thread. Some people are trying to discuss the topic of Islam and this is just getting in the way. Move it where it belongs, please.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 19, 2012 06:42 AM |
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That was a very nice post of Zenofex, I am surprised it did not get more attention except Elodin's answer.
From mods, that's it 
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Era II mods and utilities
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted September 19, 2012 02:07 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 14:11, 19 Sep 2012.
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Many people fear the the rise of Islam and for a good reason. Islam is dangerous and religious/ideological freedom must have boundries. But when some fear the rise of Islam, I fear the rise of racism. Frankly it angers and disgusts me to see these counter-Islam/foreigners corrupt my beloved country. What has Islam done to my country? Sure, I have heard of their evils but in my entire life I have never witnessed muslim extremists while the rascists spread their corruption all over media and politics with their messages of fear and intolerance. And the only muslim terrorist attempt I know of to ever take place in Sweden was a suicide bomber who only took himself to the afterlife. While among the Islam haters you got Breivik in our neighbour country of Norway. The real threat of europe is quite clear to me.
To Elodin: No, christianity is not responsible for modern science. The decline of it maybe. If I remember correct, knowledge and technology from the antique was kept alive by other cultures such as the arabic during the middleages and later reintroduced to europeans who were busy being zealous and spreading their religion. During the renaissans, something happened to european cultures that made exploring in general more acceptable wether it be geographically, philosophically or scientifically. The chuch certainly resisted but was in the end more or less able to adapt to the cultural changes. This is also the reason why Europe got so much ahead of the rest of the world and pretty much put the world under european control while cultures like the arabic are still stuck in the middleages.
Also, you need to stop listing those atheist dictators and blame atheism for their crimes. Just like theism can not be blamed for the crusades or withhunts. Ideologies like Christianity, Islam, Communism, Capitialism or simple human evil can be blamed for crimes. Theism or atheism can never be blamed.
And about atheism being a religion: Christianity and Communism are both ideologies but only christianity is a religion because it is a theistic ideology. Communism is without the theism part and therefore just a simple ideology. If theism was existance then atheism would be void.
Ideology + theism = Religion
Ideology + atheism = Ideology
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 19, 2012 04:00 PM |
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Gunfred, I've already asked nicely to stick to the topic. This isn't the thread to discuss how horrible atheists are, or to refute the arguments of people who claim as much. I even put it in red ink so it couldn't be missed. Do I have to start playing "bad cop" now?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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