|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
posted September 10, 2012 07:10 PM |
|
|
Forfy, I think that this statement tells us rather clearly why Gnu didn't want to discuss anymore...
Quote:
This is a subject where every person have their own opinions and experiences. And also, there is a big difference between countries too.
Maybe this thread was a stupid idea anyway. It doesn't belong on sites where all kinds of people from every culture can have a profile.
 It suggests (rather strongly) that he wanted more people to agree with him and felt that he didn't get the support he wanted... so he left the discussion. While I agree that the subject went way off topic entirely too quickly (Thank you certain posters (The one who initiated and everyone that basically supported the off-topic shift)), that does not seem to be a reason that matters to him.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
oHfOrfSakE
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 07:19 PM |
|
|
Don't you recognize empty rhetoric when you see it?
If there's one thing I've taught myself regarding certain posters, it is that you sometimes shouldn't look at the detail of what they write, but more into what the conclusion is. Gnu is obviously frustrated about this topic. However, he wasn't so after the first few posts, which more or less already disagreed with him.
I may be wrong, when I guess it's simply the thread not developing in the direction he wanted, but that's the most likely reason, as I see it.
____________
Living time backwards
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 07:56 PM |
|
Edited by Seraphim at 19:58, 10 Sep 2012.
|
So, why not keep this thread alive?
Personally, I believe that people of different religions are unable to live together socially.
Lets take a look.
Islam does not tolerate other religions.
Its followers are staunch and not open to discussion because saying "Your beliefs are against human rights" somehow damages their ego.
The devoted ones disrespect local laws.
.... and so on and on.
In essence, they defend their beliefs because of their ego. Ego=God.
They believe their god is above all. Replace god with ego:
They believe their ego is above all. See the problem?
That said, as seen with gnu, religion also acts as a "We are in this toghether" feeling. He did not want to discuss because of "Opinions" he did not agree with.
People with similar faith are more ready to help each other.
Ego agreeing people...
Now, if we took a simmilar analysis on christians or jews, we would idnetify most if not all the same conflicts.
The simple fact that ones beliefs are to consider non believers or infidels as a threat and enemy, makes a community separate.
Also, biologically, we are instinctively prone to consider others who are different as a threat but that is not something that cannot be overcome.
How can you make a community not separated? Maybe HC should answer this.
I would start by removing the factors that separate such as the fact the one should respect religious beliefs.
Not abiding to secular laws becusue of ones religion is the main problem here, at least that is my opinion.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 02:25 AM |
|
|
Quote:
So, why not keep this thread alive?
Personally, I believe that people of different religions are unable to live together socially.
I beg to differ. I have friends who are of different faiths. 
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 01:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
So, why not keep this thread alive?
Personally, I believe that people of different religions are unable to live together socially.
I beg to differ. I have friends who are of different faiths.
That is great and I admire people who do their best to get along with different kinds of people.
But will you not be sad when you are in paradise and your friends are eternally tortured?
|
|
disturbed-Gnu
Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 02:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It suggests (rather strongly) that he wanted more people to agree with him and felt that he didn't get the support he wanted... so he left the discussion. While I agree that the subject went way off topic entirely too quickly (Thank you certain posters (The one who initiated and everyone that basically supported the off-topic shift)), that does not seem to be a reason that matters to him.
Well, i don't know any one of you, so i didn't know your thoughts on this. So no, thats not why. Its simply because this thread only leads to an unsolveable discussions between opinions.
You cant prove whats right and whats wrong on religion and culture.
EDIT# i created this thread because i was angry with the muslims. And i still am. So i will always be on the Mohammed drawings side.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 02:54 PM |
|
|
That's a rather clumsy way to say that you don't like people disagreeing with you on the matter. As for:
Quote:
i created this thread because i was angry with the muslims. And i still am.
This clearly states that you don't want discussion, you want to vent some anger against a certain group of people. An international forum is the wrong the place to do that though, for various reasons.
|
|
OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 03:42 PM |
|
|
|
Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 04:01 PM |
|
|
If a mad crowd is killing innocent people with granade launcher, are they even still 'human'? Any culture or tradition can't explain brutal murder.
Also, from what I read elsewhere, they were not connected to al Qaeda. All this al Qaeda hype sounds more like yet another zombie outbreak than actual threat. All the killers were people in first place and not some mysterious evil force.
____________
The future of Heroes 3 is here!
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 04:06 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 16:18, 12 Sep 2012.
|
Quote:
U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in Benghazi attack
Remember how all the US news channels had one giant, collective orgasm when Mubarak was toppled? Egypt was going to become instantly some kind of utopia.
Now they think this attack might have been caused by some Egyptians who were pissed because of a movie that depicted "The Prophet" negatively.
Utopia indeed.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 04:29 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 16:33, 12 Sep 2012.
|
Last night I was listening to an audio-book about 7 major events that gave us our current notion of "freedom" that most of us are able to enjoy. (Freedom, meaning we are not living under a tyrant and can live mostly as we choose)
I remembered this thread, because I was struck by one single stated fact, for the entire history of Islam's forceful-spread across the globe; "there is no law but Sharia law"
Wiki= Quote:
Sharia (Arabic: شريعة‎ šarīʿah, IPA: ʃaˈriːʕa], "legislation"; sp. shariah, sharīʿah;[1] also
قانون إسلامي qānūn ʾIslāmī is the moral code and religious law of Islam. Sharia deals with many topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, and fasting. Though interpretations of sharia vary between cultures, in its strictest definition it is considered the infallible law of God—as opposed to the human interpretation of the laws (fiqh).
There are two primary sources of sharia law: the precepts set forth in the Quran, and the example set by the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the Sunnah. Where it has official status, sharia is interpreted by
Islamic judges (qadis) with varying responsibilities for the religious leaders (imams).
Here is the problem in a nutshell,
Immigrating Muslims cannot abide any nations laws if they cross secular law boundaries as defined above. A nations secular laws were written to apply to all members of a given society no matter their
beliefs. Islam does not allow the Sharia law to be usurped by any secular codes. To some of them, that is just like saying; "man knows better than Allah"
<imo> Secular nations cannot expect immigrants claiming to be Muslims to enter the country and desire to conform to that nations laws etc. Seems to me (by the above definition); it is oil and water and they will never mix.
It is worth noting that nearly all Islam-conquered lands throughout history are still Muslim-theocracies. Unlike nearly all empires of history, i.e Persian, Greco, Roman, the Muslim empire (most recent Ottoman/Turkish) has completely dominated it peoples and there is no chance of the modern notion of change, freedom etc.. The treatment of women is a good indicator.
Also, I keep reading posts saying that all religions are the same; this is said in total ignorance. Christianity and Muslims do share a few beliefs that much is true but they differ vastly when it comes
to tolerance and living under secular laws.
And to make this point clear...on women and their place in society; in many Christian churches,woman not only participate...they lead, by organizing and teaching and are not under any code of dress. And the plain truth is; if not for the roles that women have played "in recent decades" there are a lot of Christian churches that would have closed their doors after the loss of male leadership. You'll not find this happening in Muslim theocracies.
So my question is; What nation wants folks inside their borders, that by their confessed faith must follow leaders (Imams)sitting back home in the old country and have no intent to follow secular laws, or identifying with a new nation?
I don't know this answer, I've no doubt that some Muslims do not adhere to the extremes, so I will stick to my "judge not" but how is a neutral-nation to deal with Islam's internal civil war, especially when the extreme-types are dominating in various lands?
|
|
Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 04:52 PM |
|
|
Thank you for your ost, Makkur. I may add something:
Christians believe that the Bible is a work of human. It was inspired by God, but in fact you can see it's authors wrote it only as they could. Some parts, for example Book of Numbers (?), are even quite a crap to read. So it's open to interpretation and has always been an interpretation by its original authors.
Muslims, however, believe that Quran itself IS divine. It was created by God as it is and can't be altered at all, will stay like that forever.
This doesn't explain by any means Muslim attacks.
Catholics can often protest against abortion or other burning issues, but do not tend to blow themselves up. Neither religion glorifies violence, but somehow Muslims threat terror and murder as a common area of public activity. It's more a cultural influence than religion as such.
____________
The future of Heroes 3 is here!
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 04:56 PM |
|
|
There are Muslims in the western "secular" states for quite some time and they had no problem with the local laws all this time. My own country has a very large Muslim minority for about a century and a half (i.e. since its liberation from the Ottoman Empire, a Muslim state) and I can't really recall a case from history where the Muslims have caused any trouble just because they are Muslims - frankly they haven't caused any serious problem at all*. How is this possible in your opinion? And what about the other such countries?
*There's one certain episode in the recent history where the Turkish minority is in the centre of some unpleasant events but that has nothing to do with its religion.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 05:19 PM |
|
|
What means a very large minority in Bulgaria? When I came in France, 15 years ago, there was a minority of muslims and I did not notice them. 15 years later, there are 8 millions muslims and problems constantly multiplied every day. My guess is that muslim population tend to integrate with time if immigration is controlled and a certain ratio is respected, but if more come every day than integrate, then it is a dead way.
@Edit, I googled it, looks like 12% of bulgarians are muslims, nice if it works. Lucky you.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 05:31 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 17:37, 12 Sep 2012.
|
Large compared to the total population of the country - i.e. about 9% according to the latest census. This means about 550 - 650 000 people (depending on how you count them - ethnicity, language, etc.), the majority of which are Muslims. Their number had only briefly been under 500 000 people just before the Balkan Wars - for obvious reasons - and since the fall of the socialist regime it's declining. The long-term trend however is towards a number of about 550 - 600 000 local Turks. That's quite a lot.
Edit:
Quote:
Edit, I googled it, looks like 12% of bulgarians are muslims, nice if it works. Lucky you.
Yes, the non-Turk Muslims are the so-called Pomaks, descendants of the forcefully islamised Slavic population after the Ottoman conquest in the late Medieval times and they make up for the rest of these about 12%. In fact, they are more devoted Muslims than the Turks but have never caused any trouble based on religion.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 05:41 PM |
|
|
To say the truth, the troubles in France has almost nothing to do with Islam religion (except a few brawls about burka and such) but with their every day behavior.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
disturbed-Gnu
Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 05:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That's a rather clumsy way to say that you don't like people disagreeing with you on the matter. As for:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i created this thread because i was angry with the muslims. And i still am.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This clearly states that you don't want discussion, you want to vent some anger against a certain group of people. An international forum is the wrong the place to do that though, for various reasons.
-.-* "sigh" People can disagree with me all they want. And i can disagree with other people all i want.
And that clearly meant, that i hate muslims yes, and also to prove my point: You can disguss all you want, people cannot convert ones opinion on the matter.
You can state your opinion on muslims, but if i tell you to reconsider, you wouldnt do it. Ergo is the point of this thread useless. Its not a discussion we have.
--
If we did have a discussion, it would end up being.
Racists, neutrals and erh the opposite of racists.
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 07:20 PM |
|
|
|
I kind of like muslims. They are nice and cuddly.
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 09:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Here is the problem in a nutshell,
Quote:
Immigrating Muslims cannot abide any nations laws if they cross secular law boundaries as defined above. A nations secular laws were written to apply to all members of a given society no matter their
beliefs. Islam does not allow the Sharia law to be usurped by any secular codes. To some of them, that is just like saying; "man knows better than Allah"
Which is why religious freedom should not be so "Free". Sharia courts should be outlawed in europe. A person should not have the right to practice religion, when said religion infringes upon basic human rights of its members.
Europe rather seems to have a problem with immigrants, and not religion in general. And some countries love to blame its minorites for its own failures.
Quote:
It is worth noting that nearly all Islam-conquered lands throughout history are still Muslim-theocracies.
Which is wrong. There are muslim countries which are not theocracies, such as Turkey(Even though the current party is extremely Religious), Albania (Former communist country), Kosovo, Kazakhstan ,Bangladesh,Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, "Cough" Syria,Abkhazia etc.
Quote:
Also, I keep reading posts saying that all religions are the same; this is said in total ignorance. Christianity and Muslims do share a few beliefs that much is true but they differ vastly when it comes
to tolerance and living under secular laws.
I find this tasteless and ignorant of what really has been said.
Nobody ever said every religion is the same, at least I did not.
What I said is that every religion is not tolerant towards others.
Christianity is not tolerant. The more "Real" versions of christianity are already causing havoc in africa. They are following the bible, transgressions are punished.
Lets just say this,Christians in europe are not more tolerant because christianity is superior, they are more tolerant because of their culture and education.
I highly doubt christians in, lets say jerusalem, are tolerant of Jews or Muslims.
And I can provide testimony on how tolerant Christians are in Kosovo...
Quote:
And the plain truth is; if not for the roles that women have played "in recent decades" there are a lot of Christian churches that would have closed their doors after the loss of male leadership. You'll not find this happening in Muslim theocracies.
The same wont happen in africa, asia and south america. Lets take the USA as an example. More than 60% of the people would not vote for a president if he is not christian. This might not be the point, but please dont talk about how tolerant christians are.
Christianity is a religion, a dogma. No matter how you wrap it, there will be a guy, the loudest, who will take every word from the bible and make it law.
Faith is non tolerant by definition.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 11:43 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Lets just say this,Christians in europe are not more tolerant because christianity is superior, they are more tolerant because of their culture and education.
Who said they were superior? I don't think anyone should be claiming superiority. <imo> the OP was a "focus on the problems of muslim immigration". What I read was your taking a specific topic and making it larger, by using your "I hate religion card" and making this thread about all religion in general.
Since Islam is driven by what I quoted earlier,<imo>we need to keep the focus on Islamic law and what problems may or may not be caused by that creed. The mentioned problems may have nothing to do with Islam in general.
As far as there being peaceful segments in non-islamic countries; I know this, we have this in the U.S. as well. But one thing should be clear, changes have been underway.
Many countries in the Middle-East are experiencing the civil war between Shia and Sunni. Then add the West "Crusading into the region yet again"(how muslims see the West's interventions and have been telling crusader stories since...well...the crusades) and that has bolstered the strength of the radicals.
I think there is a reason to be alarmed about changes. What I have seen in recent years reminds me of pre-WWII Germany and Japan when they began teaching their little children the art of war. Now, seeing a 5 year-old boy in Iran, repeating "Death to the great Satan" while holding a machine-gun?
The bottom line is how do you know what is really crossing your borders now and in the future?
Btw, I should state something important: we have many immigrants coming into the U.S that are here for the hand-outs only. They don't give a hoot about becoming an American, many "want the country to conform to them" and are still devoted to be whatever they were upon entry. So this problem is very far reaching. I once thought it was just here but have since been educated that it is a global problem for many countries.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
