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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Muslims Causing Trouble?
Thread: Muslims Causing Trouble? This thread is 47 pages long: 1 10 20 30 ... 36 37 38 39 40 ... 47 · «PREV / NEXT»
kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted January 10, 2015 04:08 PM

artu said:


Well, you said it yourself, any difference has the potential of causing discrimination (not as a necessity though), what's your solution then, cloning?


I don't have any "solution" for this. I just said "personally, I prefer ..." in the sense that it is my personal point of view, never intending to apply my personal view as a global wide solution. If people want to take more risks and mix with others that are different, they can.

A solution for the opening poster though, would have been to allow less Muslims in his country.

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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted January 10, 2015 04:18 PM
Edited by meroe at 16:32, 10 Jan 2015.

xerox said:


Except France is one of the most racist countries in Europe. And just now we've seen the results of that hate.


If that is what you believe, then you really are wearing rose tinted spectacles.  Radicalized muslim converts care nothing about the country they are living in/their families or loved ones.  They are warped and fanatic.  And capitulating won't save you either.

You understand that those guys in France did what they did, not because of Islam, but because of their own warped views and their own racism and their own hatred.  They are raised westerners who achieve little to nothing in the real world and boy are they snowed off about it.  It can't be their fault, its society's surely  And they are ripe for brainwashing and they know precious little about Islam.

Out of control immigration and large influxes of immigrants into an area will always cause ghetto's and produce people like this.  Easily susceptible to a hate preacher or radical iman who offers them the promise of power over others, hero status, infamy and paradise - something they don't have in reality.

Too many people putting too much pressure on schools and services equals lesser educated people, rampant unemployment and poverty .... and BAM you have got yourself a horde of disenfranchised youths with a chip on their shoulder, wanting to know why he can't have a rolex or lots of women.  And then we end up with guys who commit atrocities like the murder of Lee Rigby and Charlie Hedbo staff.

Open your eyes.  


____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 10, 2015 04:28 PM

I think your young mind has yet some difficulties to perceive the world. You spew your discontent overall against Russia because its gays discrimination. Then you spew your discontent against France because its racism against Muslims, which at their roots, ANYWHERE they live, are way more intolerant or criminal against gays or against any concept of freedom, than Russia and France altogether.

You know that 250k legal immigrants are, every year, coming and installing in France. Which is a bit strange if indeed we were soooo racist. I can tell you that me + some other 50 millions French citizens are working hard in order to offer these people human conditions: a roof, wealth care, access to free education and so on. But when we ask for payback -be it in the simple form of respect at least-, we are told we are racist. And when they start to do what they do best -violence, then again, is our fault.

Ah I forgot, you want to be a politician. This explains some things...

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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted January 10, 2015 04:36 PM

Salamandre hit on something there that I missed.

Remember Xerox, in a muslim society you would be hanged for your sexuality.  

What chance do you think you would have against the likes of ISS or a radical sect that had been allowed to go unchallenged in your liberal world?
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 10, 2015 04:42 PM

xerox said:
but since people get unemployed and addicted to welfare checks, many never leave.


I doubt people get addicted to welfare as much as to a particular life style. Once you get out of the job environment, getting back in gets more and more difficult the longer time that pass.

But I've thought recently, what exactly would the negative consequences of the majority of a population being on welfare be?

Before money we traded goods, we'd to create something so we could trade for the things we needed. Basic needs such as shelter, food, etc. So if you were producing food or building shelters you'd something everyone for sure would need.

However with money, everything that has a value can now be traded even if the person with the food doesn't need the specific product you create. That also means larger and larger groups can focus on single brands, such as e.g. cars or other things that used to be luxury items. A whole country can run on oil in desert with little water.. something I can't imagine possible without money and the internet.

However with time comes modernization and some countries lose their traditional work, but keep on their output. E.g. my country is a farmer country, which used to have tons and tons of farms all over.. but now there are few huge farms and most of it is automated, requiring very little personal. Which I think is a good thing, but it does also mean less traditional work and here we have to keep up.

Which is what led to me wondering what would actually happen if the majority was on welfare? Agriculture today can almost take care of itself, the money invested compared to the food we get out is very little and it's mainly expensive due to lack of free marked forces and bureaucratic government rules.. e.g. we're self supported with oil as well, but the price for it here is just as high as every other wealthy nation.

So I'm not entirely convinced people on welfare is a problem in itself anymore, because we're actually not as dependent on people working for society to function as we used to be. There won't be a shortage of food, or shelters, or other stuff we need, because we can now automate to a degree that it's almost self supported with very little input.
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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted January 10, 2015 04:57 PM

Welfare is an issue Forfy.  For example, during my work in Social Welfare we dealt mainly with immigrants in our catchment area.  I had a conversation with a Somalian woman who had fled Somalia with her family.  She was 28 years old with 11 children (I kid you not).  She actually shook my hands and thanked me for the generous welfare her family where given - housing, transport, baby clothes, food vouchers, schooling and a welfare check every week that gave them more money than they ever had in Somalia.  She could easily feed her family - after all her housing was paid for etc.  Her husband had no intention of getting work.  He was more happy spending the afternoon smoking with his Somalian buddies in a local Somalian cafe lol.

While I totally agree in helping asylum seekers fleeing violence.  Welfare should only be a temporary thing - a safety net.  European countries quite simply often pay out welfare for years and years.  Its a crime against hard working tax payers.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted January 10, 2015 05:09 PM

meroe said:
Its a crime against hard working tax payers.


Depends on the actual work. It is a mistake to believe that the money you make is equal to how useful to a society you are. Some people are paid twice as much for the same work than another. Also, most rich countries have regulations regarding basic needs ( food, clothing and a place to live ), and that cap gives less money for the really useful workers ( like farmers ) and more money for people working in the tertiary sector. This set up is to ensure that a city will be more beautiful, because I can assure you that a farmer making the equivalent of 20 $ an hour is worth a lot more than a waitress that does 25 $ an hour including tips just because she got a nice pair of tits.

Welfare people owe their gratitude to farmers, house builders, truckers and such ; certainly not to overpaid tertiary sector workers.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 10, 2015 05:11 PM

I understand it's annoying to pay taxes and see others get those money, but my question was more what is the consequence if the majority of society was on welfare?
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Living time backwards

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted January 10, 2015 05:14 PM

OhforfSake said:
I understand it's annoying to pay taxes and see others get those money, but my question was more what is the consequence if the majority of society was on welfare?


As long as the really important workers are still working? Your local city wouldn't be as pretty. Some buildings would be abandoned. You might not find a decent restaurant nearby and would have to cook your own supper. That's about it.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 10, 2015 05:18 PM

kayna said:
OhforfSake said:
I understand it's annoying to pay taxes and see others get those money, but my question was more what is the consequence if the majority of society was on welfare?


As long as the really important workers are still working?


Yes, it was supposed to be implied in the first post I made that essential stuff like maintenance, hospitals, supplies, etc. were still just as available.

Btw. thank you for considering and reflecting upon the imagined scenario.
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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted January 10, 2015 05:25 PM

This is how it is in rich countries. Most of us work in the tertiary sector. We're brainwashed into thinking we're important, but we're not. A place where most people was on welfare would be...

A very depressing town with nothing going on. No activities whatsoever. Restaurants and other fun but not important commerces would close. People would hang outside and talk with other people. More gangs would form. That, in turn, would increase the criminality I suppose.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 10, 2015 05:33 PM

I think one major issue with how the world works today is that either:
A) You're on welfare and have no motivation mentality.
B) You're working and if you don't work you can't support your family mentality.

E.g. in the case of B) if one were asked to stay home by ones loved one.. many would not do that. Perhaps they'd identify their own importance through their work or they'd be afraid of consequences such as getting fired.. while in a better world I imagine loved ones would always take priority and not only when it's an emergency.

They're two extremes, where one group has trouble getting back into an interesting life and the other group has trouble not to be dependent on their work to feel valuable.

That's not true for everyone of course.. but to a degree I think it'd be nice if what we did and how we lived would be more mergeable.
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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted January 10, 2015 05:46 PM

kayna said:
OhforfSake said:
I understand it's annoying to pay taxes and see others get those money, but my question was more what is the consequence if the majority of society was on welfare?


As long as the really important workers are still working? Your local city wouldn't be as pretty. Some buildings would be abandoned. You might not find a decent restaurant nearby and would have to cook your own supper. That's about it.


Seriously?? Is that all you think would happen?

How much tax do you think you would be paying to cover the deficit?  It would bankrupt the nation if the majority were out of work and on welfare. You would effectively be working for nothing.  Not to mention the state of the country.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted January 10, 2015 06:05 PM

It's hard to tell the actual deficit of a country. Most countries in the world are in a deficit, because we all borrow from each other. We are in deficit, but others also owe us money, and nobody in the news actually tell us our real current state of affair.

If our bankers stopped their shenaningans of borrowing with one hand, lending with another, and creating money out of thin air, maybe we could tell if we really owed another country something or not. If we did, then we could just export oil or some snow until the debt is paid and then go back to the welfare checks.

*shrug*

Welfare people doesn't consume much.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 10, 2015 06:10 PM

Quote:
She actually shook my hands and thanked me for the generous welfare her family where given - housing, transport, baby clothes, food vouchers, schooling and a welfare check every week that gave them more money than they ever had in Somalia.  She could easily feed her family - after all her housing was paid for etc.  Her husband had no intention of getting work.  He was more happy spending the afternoon smoking with his Somalian buddies in a local Somalian cafe lol.


and in the situation described by ohforf, how is it a bad thing?
we are always told that we need to work more, but do we know for what?
for more growth? for what is that growth needed?

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 10, 2015 06:14 PM

meroe said:

Seriously?? Is that all you think would happen?

How much tax do you think you would be paying to cover the deficit?  It would bankrupt the nation if the majority were out of work and on welfare.


From made up numbers, if 90% were out of work and got welfare, these 90% would at most pay taxes of the welfare they already got, which is taking away money you already gave, so this can be ignored.

Then if the tax is e.g. 20%, we've 10% of the population paying 20% of their salary to taxes. From these 20% a percentage becomes the welfare money.

In other word, if all income is from taxes, then the 10% who works would have to have a lot more money than the 90% who doesn't.

But that's not the point I try to make, because if we are dependent on money, then you're right, it'd be bankruptcy. The point is rather, are we really dependent on money? If our food sources are more or less self supplying, to say, once the essential jobs are covered, all we really need is a way to transport this product to every person. To say, I wonder, if we remove all the non-essential jobs, similar to that the majority being on welfare, does it really harm society if we can climb over own shoulders and defeat the demons of laziness and procrastination, to do what we really want?
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 10, 2015 06:30 PM
Edited by Fauch at 18:33, 10 Jan 2015.

one of the problem is how we interpret things about money.
the other day I read that coca cola is laying off like 1500 people, because their annual growth was only 4-5% instead of the expected 6-8%.

so the guys earned more money than the previous year, and use it as an excuse to lay off people.

and overall, that's just as much sense the economy does with the real world, this is totally disconnected from it. we are rich, economy tells us we are poor and our only hope is to sell ourselves to the guys who print the bills, because they own the only wealth...

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meroe
meroe


Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
posted January 10, 2015 06:50 PM

I love to know what country you guys think could be run with an unemployed population of about 90% to 10% working.  

What about schools, hospitals and medicine, policing, housing, street lighting etc.  Where does the funding for all that come from?  The 10%??  Well yes I guess it could if they were paying 100% of their wages in tax and if the populace rarely ate, just stayed inside.

What an amazingly altruistic nation that would be.  
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted January 10, 2015 07:09 PM
Edited by Warmonger at 19:11, 10 Jan 2015.

Fauch said:
Quote:
She actually shook my hands and thanked me for the generous welfare her family where given - housing, transport, baby clothes, food vouchers, schooling and a welfare check every week that gave them more money than they ever had in Somalia.  She could easily feed her family - after all her housing was paid for etc.  Her husband had no intention of getting work.  He was more happy spending the afternoon smoking with his Somalian buddies in a local Somalian cafe lol.


and in the situation described by ohforf, how is it a bad thing?
we are always told that we need to work more, but do we know for what?
for more growth? for what is that growth needed?

You can't blame people that if they are given money for life, they breed like rabits. I would probably do the same

The issue is the law which allows them to not work and still get benefits from the rest of citizens who do work hard. Restrict your welfare and problem will be solved.

The observation that people of West work more than they need is another problem. But they won't stop if you take money from them
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 10, 2015 07:53 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 19:56, 10 Jan 2015.

meroe said:
I love to know what country you guys think could be run with an unemployed population of about 90% to 10% working.

The question is what will happen.  

meroe said:
Well yes I guess it could if they were paying 100% of their wages in tax  


Well here's the problem. If e.g. hospitals earns money from patients which are used to pay wages to the staff, patients earn money from the state (90% welfare dudes) and the state get those money from the hospital staff in form of taxes, it won't add up.

But it never does, money is always lost in transition, yet the money we earn we use to buy goods, which means other earn those money, which in turn are only been moved around. In other words, if money wasn't created, the world could not work.

On the other hand, creating too much money will cause inflation, but it just means that money is created faster than goods and services. For every technological landmark, people may get several products they absolutely must have (e.g. cell phones), and that means there's room for more money in economy without there being inflation, as people have more goods to divide their money upon.

In other words, the total sum of money isn't very relevant, it's more the total amount of goods available and a well working system.

At least that's how I understood it.

Edit: To expand, if someone is making a service or good that's not essential, basically I am not convinced there's much difference between said person receiving his wages with or without performing his trade.
What I find interesting is to consider if said person actually does his trade because it's what he'd like to do and the cash is only an added bonus that he'd get no matter what for economy to prosper...

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