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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Muslims Causing Trouble?
Thread: Muslims Causing Trouble? This thread is 47 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 40 ... 43 44 45 46 47 · «PREV / NEXT»
Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 13, 2012 12:28 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 00:31, 13 Sep 2012.

Quote:


Who said they were superior? I don't think anyone should be claiming superiority. <imo> the OP was a "focus on the problems of muslim immigration".



My bad. I misread you.  


Quote:

What I read was your taking a specific topic and making it larger, by using your "I hate religion card" and making this thread about all religion in general.


Which is why these people are behaving in abnormal way. You can either:
A: Blame Islam
B: Blame the imported immigrant Muslims.
C: Both
In my opinion, there can be no "Coexsitence" with Islam and Chdristianity. I am sorry that did not mention EACH explicitely.
I said earlier that religion-dogma is by definition non tolerant.
You cant have TWO major religions in a coutnry when one of them says "KILL ALL INFIDELS" and the other, in this case christianity, is just as dogmatic and has a broad way to interpret its "HOLY BOOK".
The rest is history, WW2 for example.

Quote:

As far as there being peaceful segments in non-islamic countries; I know this, we have this in the U.S. as well. But one thing should be clear, changes have been underway.


Those peaceful segments exist because those people dont go 100% what their "Holy" book says.

Quote:

I think there is a reason to be alarmed about changes. What I have seen in recent years reminds me of pre-WWII Germany and Japan when they began teaching their little children the art of war. Now, seeing a 5 year-old boy in Iran, repeating "Death to the great Satan" while holding a machine-gun?



True that. Iran is in full sanctions already. A war with it is already being discussed, maybe even likely.


Quote:

 They don't give a hoot about becoming an American, many "want the country to conform to them" and are still devoted to be whatever they were upon entry. So this problem is very far reaching. I once thought it was just here but have since been educated that it is a global problem for many countries.

The real question is: Why should they integrate? Is there any benefit?
Imo, lowly immigrants care only about income. Others want to keep their "Identity" and some dont simply care.

Whats the advantage or the incentive to "Become ONE" with american culture, american friends?
I am just against the idea that the only thing that is wrong with western society are the immigrants. That is far from being true.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 13, 2012 03:03 AM

Quote:
In my opinion, there can be no "Coexsitence" with Islam and Chdristianity. I am sorry that did not mention EACH explicitely.
I said earlier that religion-dogma is by definition non tolerant.
You cant have TWO major religions in a coutnry when one of them says "KILL ALL INFIDELS" and the other, in this case christianity, is just as dogmatic and has a broad way to interpret its "HOLY BOOK".
The rest is history, WW2 for example.


and what was the 2nd religion in WW2?
I thought it was about a psychopath trying to exterminate 99% of the planet.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 13, 2012 03:20 AM

Did you know that at the end of World War One, Ferdinand Foch, a French marshal said "This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years." WW2 is industrialized nations' fight over distribution and ownership of resources. Almost every major war is about that. The ideology/religion is put out in front to convince masses to war. Nobody likes to say to themselves "my son just died in Africa so i can buy cheaper gas."

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 13, 2012 06:24 AM
Edited by artu at 06:25, 13 Sep 2012.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8YcEmKleJk

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 13, 2012 06:44 AM
Edited by angelito at 10:42, 13 Sep 2012.

Quote:

Which is why these people are behaving in abnormal way.


I don't understand what you mean.

Quote:
In my opinion, there can be no "Coexsitence" with Islam and Chdristianity.


There can be and there has been. Jerusalem set a very good example of it when the crusaders came in the late 11th century and killed everyone...including the Jews & Christians.

Quote:
I said earlier that religion-dogma is by definition non tolerant.
You cant have TWO major religions in a coutnry when one of them says "KILL ALL INFIDELS"


But that means "all non-muslims", every outisder is in the same boat.

Quote:
Those peaceful segments exist because those people dont go 100% what their "Holy" book says.


Well, there's debate about the killing so I doubt that's true...100% of the time

Quote:
True that. Iran is in full sanctions already. A war with it is already being discussed, maybe even likely.


I'm against war. But when the goal in life is to kill blindly, then it has to be met head-on.


Quote:
Whats the advantage or the incentive to "Become ONE" with american culture, american friends?


Besides being my next-door neighbor...not much<L> Oneness is mostly a thing of the past. American is one big divided place now and most are only interested in their own slice of the pie. i.e. a scad of special interest groups with "special laws" to boot. But that garbage veers off-topic, so I'll leave that alone

I'ts not hard to imagine that many muslims are fleeing the hopeless middle-east and the endless wars. Wouldn't about anywhere be better than there? Watching a DVD called "Checkpoint" (I think was the name) was really depressing, and that's just watching and not living.

Quote:
I am just against the idea that the only thing that is wrong with western society are the immigrants. That is far from being true.



I'm not sure who said that immigration is the only problem in the West but I agree that the West is full of problems beyond the folks crossing borders.

@Artu
Quote:
Did you know that at the end of World War One, Ferdinand Foch, a French marshal said "This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years."


My fav quote was also by a French leader that said; "War is too serious a matter to be left in the handds of the military"
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 13, 2012 10:43 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 10:44, 13 Sep 2012.

Quote:
I'm against war. But when the goal in life is to kill blindly, then it has to be met head-on.
Here we go again... Who kills blindly? You sound like a trivial politician saying something like "it is very regrettable that we have to resort to such actions but we have no other choice" which is just a transparent mask for hypocrisy.
Quote:
But that means "all non-muslims", every outisder is in the same boat.
No, there are nuances, quite important ones. There are the people who are, bluntly put, misinterpreting or not fully understanding (because they don't recognize the last Prophet - Muhammad) God's message but have heard of it - the Ahl-Al-Kitab in Arabic, "people of the Book", or in short the followers of the other Abrahamic religions. They are considered misguided but still worthy of some respect. Unlike them, those who don't recognize or doubt existence of the one God (including polytheists) in one way or another and mostly the atheists, are Devil's breed. So in the global Caliphate that the western media is using a bogeyman, you won't be treated very badly, don't worry.
Quote:
I'ts not hard to imagine that many muslims are fleeing the hopeless middle-east and the endless wars. Wouldn't about anywhere be better than there?
Hopeless... I guess you'll willingly "flee" your own home and move abroad, among a culture which differs significantly from yours when the situation becomes "hopeless" too. The vast majority of the wars in the Middle East during the last century (except the Iran-Iraq war and the Iraq-Kuwait war prior to "Desert Storm") are staged either around Israel, or are western invasions/coups or anti-colonial fights of the local people. You however make it sound like it's the latter's fault that the region can't see a lasting peace.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 13, 2012 11:48 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 11:49, 13 Sep 2012.

Just read the news this morning, a muslim student violently beat a teacher during a class on Islam religion because he disagreed with teacher's views.

french link

What is interesting is that only 1 of 10 most important news papers actually specified that was about Islam. All other just say "religion", without further comments.

Second news was about Yemen USA embassy being attacked right now. Oh well... it is easy to stay on topic in this thread.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted September 13, 2012 02:57 PM

Artu, watch the spam, please.  If you have a link to post that's relevant, in the future briefly describe what it is in the body of your text.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 13, 2012 03:16 PM

Sorry, i got drunk.

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 13, 2012 04:55 PM
Edited by markkur at 16:59, 13 Sep 2012.

Quote:
Quote:
I'm against war. But when the goal in life is to kill blindly, then it has to be met head-on.



Quote:
Here we go again... Who kills blindly? You sound like a trivial politician saying something like "it is very regrettable that we have to resort to such actions but we have no other choice" which is just a transparent mask for hypocrisy.


<imo>Anyone that walks into a crowd of strangers and blows himself up does not see life very well. And being brainwashed into thinking they are going to get a wonderful blissful life for dealing mass death? well, blind is too kind a word.

Btw, you can disagree and even cuss me out but please never, never use that terrible word, politician on me again. Have you no compassion?

Quote:
Quote:
But that means "all non-muslims", every outisder is in the same boat.



Quote:
No, there are nuances, quite important ones. There are the people who are, bluntly put, misinterpreting or not fully understanding (because they don't recognize the last Prophet - Muhammad) God's message but have heard of it - the Ahl-Al-Kitab in Arabic, "people of the Book", or in short the followers of the other Abrahamic religions. They are considered misguided but still worthy of some respect. Unlike them, those who don't recognize or doubt existence of the one God (including polytheists) in one way or another and mostly the atheists, are Devil's breed. So in the global Caliphate that the western media is using a bogeyman, you won't be treated very badly, don't worry.


Sorry, you're correct about the details but what I meant; is that if if you're not a muslim than you are an outsider. As far as safety, wouldn't you think that depends on who you're with? After all, folks can exist under "any" label and yet be vastly different in what they believe is right and wrong.

Btw, are the taxing differences still in place in the world today? I've read that the "better than total infidels" you mentioned were taxed heavily in earlier centuries. "This provided an important incentive to convert", along with getting secondary citizen status removed.

Quote:
Hopeless... I guess you'll willingly "flee" your own home and move abroad, among a culture which differs significantly from yours when the situation becomes "hopeless" too.


If I had young children, without hesistation. I would try to find a place where I could raise them in peace. If I were a single man, I would stay and preach peace.


Quote:
You however make it sound like it's the latter's fault that the region can't see a lasting peace.


Really? Well that was not intended. I was talking about how an immigrant "could" see things and not targetting the middle-east politics etc.in any depth.

I try to do that old american indian proverb of putting on another's leather footwear and walking a bit.  Some situations are difficult though and I would guess immigration is one.

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 13, 2012 05:12 PM

Quote:
What is interesting is that only 1 of 10 most important news papers actually specified that was about Islam. All other just say "religion", without further comments.


@ Salamandre

I forgot to reply to your keen observation.

This is what I call the blanket-label-bit and its used by the politically-correct crowd. What's silly about it; is they are trying to protect some segment but are blind that they're slam-dunking far more people in the process.

This is a good example of what we all should bear in mind when reading about immigrants and anything else for that matter.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 13, 2012 06:26 PM

Quote:
Just read the news this morning, a muslim student violently beat a teacher during a class on Islam religion because he disagreed with teacher's views.


the teacher may be prejudiced against islam as it seems to often be the case here. still, the student overreacted it seems.

I read that indoctrinated people will cling to their beliefs like you may cling to a loved one, and we know what people can do when you threaten their loved ones.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 13, 2012 08:40 PM

Yes, maybe he thought Islam is not very peaceful then the student raised the appropriate argument...sure you are right.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 13, 2012 08:42 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 20:50, 13 Sep 2012.

Quote:

the teacher may be prejudiced against islam as it seems to often be the case here. still, the student overreacted it seems.


Thats hardly a reason to go into a brawl. I dont believe that the teacher was prejudiced.
You actually have to meet this type of "Students" in order to percieve how much lunatic they are. Trust me on that, that guy deserves prison time, for life.

Quote:

I read that indoctrinated people will cling to their beliefs like you may cling to a loved one, and we know what people can do when you threaten their loved ones.


In my experience, they will consider "Insults" to their religion as a very grave personal insult. Their god is nothing but their ego.
In this case, we have an islamic bully who felt "Insulted" by its teacher.




I would actually send that little snow back to where it came from.


Evolution,too insulting for islamic kidds.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 13, 2012 09:23 PM

Quote:
In my experience, they will consider "Insults" to their religion as a very grave personal insult. Their god is nothing but their ego.


Insulting your mother will also hurt nothing but your ego. And still, people won't do it, excluding immature kids over the internet. You know why? it's because empathy, which you claimed is so important. People don't want you to feel bad by insulting someone or something you love.

Guess you have a long way to actually learn empathy you proclaim to be necessary in life. It's easy to be tolerant towards something you consider "just different", but it's a bit harder for things you consider "stupid", eh?
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 13, 2012 09:50 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 21:59, 13 Sep 2012.

Quote:

Insulting your mother will also hurt nothing but your ego. And still, people won't do it, excluding immature kids over the internet.


People wont do it? You have not met many lowly people then. I have met people, "Adults" who did that. Unlike in Europe, in Kosovo,Albania,Macedonia you can easily get away with public insults.
Those insults are met with violence but that depends from person to person.

Quote:

You know why? it's because empathy, which you claimed is so important. People don't want you to feel bad by insulting someone or something you love.


You dont insult people just because you emphasize with them, you dont insult them because of fear of retaliation, breaking a law, it being contraproductive to your agenda and respect.
Empathy does not work very well when you get angry.
If I did something terribly bad, I would not expect any empathy from anybody nor any respect. Tell me how much these people expect?
They even go as far as to be prideful. Its mind blowing.

As grown ups, our ego may be "Attacked" but we still uphold our "Cold" because we are experienced and grown, most of the time.
I would not, at least, go into a brawl because somebody insulted me,criticized me, etc.

Muslims behave like bullies when any RATIONAL critic is thrown at them. Also, since when is a valid critic an insult?
They neither deserved respect or empathy imo.



Quote:

Guess you have a long way to actually learn empathy you proclaim to be necessary in life.


That is your opinion.
Quote:

It's easy to be tolerant towards something you consider "just different", but it's a bit harder for things you consider "stupid", eh?

Tolerance goes only when two both agree to be tolerent. I dont see any muslims agreeing to be tolerant towards human rights, secular laws and science.
Of course, it is fundamental to religion to oppose things that contradict it.
How can there be tolerance when their belief is to be NON-Tolerant to "Infidels"? Hey, calling somebody an infidel is an insult? How come they are not prohibited to use that word in public?
Their belief is so ego connected and they are so immature, they burst out very fast.

The most common synonym to Islam is "Death threat".



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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 13, 2012 10:17 PM

A thing I have learned from this discussion is that unlike us westerners, muslims aren't individuals. They are just this homogenous mass of rage and violence. Yay.

I am off to have coffee with a colleague now, who is a muslim. Adios!
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 13, 2012 10:26 PM

Quote:
You dont insult people just because you emphasize with them, you dont insult them because of fear of retaliation, breaking a law, it being contraproductive to your agenda and respect.


You are speaking about hypocrites here - being nice out of the fear of getting punched in the face doesn't really have anything to do with empathy indeed. And has nothing to do with my point either.

I'm not talking about cowards, or hotheads - I'm talking about people who will simply not target anything considered "sacred" by others in discussion with the intend to ridicule it, simply because they respect the feeling of treasuring something. No offense, but you seem to be lacking such a quality.


Quote:
If I did something terribly bad, I would not expect any empathy from anybody nor any respect. Tell me how much these people expect?
They even go as far as to be prideful. Its mind blowing.


I'm guessing you're talking about Muslims here? There's one thing that makes them somewhat explained: brain washing. In my opinion, it's really easy to sit on high moral horse and throw "Muslims suck" opinions around, but when you're practically raised, like a dog, to do things EXACTLY like that, it's not so easy anymore to distinguish right from wrong.

Quote:
As grown ups, our ego may be "Attacked" but we still uphold our "Cold" because we are experienced and grown, most of the time.
I would not, at least, go into a brawl because somebody insulted me,criticized me, etc.

Muslims behave like bullies when any RATIONAL critic is thrown at them. Also, since when is a valid critic an insult?
They neither deserved respect or empathy imo.


You shouldn't disregard that you're an intelligent person with lots of knowledge, with enough freedom, both social and legal, to actually live up to your thoughts.

Can you say the same about an average Muslim from a deeply theocratic country?

Different backgrounds are enough to make any comparisons between you and them invalid by default.



Quote:
That is your opinion.


Not really. See, no one really brainwashed you into going around the internet and typing stuff like "snow your God". You're doing it because it annoys you, don't you? it annoys you that people can be so stupid to believe in that ridiculous fairy tale. However, if you were truly emphatic, you would realize that this fairy tale holds a special place in the hearts of people you ridicule or criticize.
The mother comparison is a good one, I think. If I insulted deeply your mother (assuming you have a good connection with her), you would probably feel hurt, or bad, in some way. I could simply say "hey, it's not my mother, I don't care, she means nothing to me", It would be true. However, would truth mean I'm entitled to saying those harsh words?

I really think you should learn to respect the things people value, Seraphim.
Even if they feel utterly moronic to you.

Quote:

Tolerance goes only when two both agree to be tolerent. I dont see any muslims agreeing to be tolerant towards human rights, secular laws and science.


So, if I steal your cow, you're entitled to steal mine?

I'm sure you realize what catastrophe such reasoning leads to.

If not, think of it - what use is a society where members try to make themselves equal to worst elements of that society?

There's an important moral behind tolerating those who not tolerate us. It's the fact that we're not lowering ourselves to their level.

Quote:
How can there be tolerance when their belief is to be NON-Tolerant to "Infidels"? Hey, calling somebody an infidel is an insult? How come they are not prohibited to use that word in public?
Their belief is so ego connected and they are so immature, they burst out very fast.


I think nobody sane would disagree that radical Muslims are intolerant. But that's not the point. The point is that responding to intolerance with even more intolerance leads nowhere.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 14, 2012 12:21 AM
Edited by Fauch at 00:25, 14 Sep 2012.

Quote:
Thats hardly a reason to go into a brawl. I dont believe that the teacher was prejudiced.


oh it's not uncommon that a teacher provocates a student (not saying it was the case here). of course it hardly justifies a brawl indeed.

Quote:
Yes, maybe he thought Islam is not very peaceful then the student raised the appropriate argument...sure you are right.

if you thought that, I think you would watch your words. I myself would avoid disagreeing with people if I viewed them as "not very peaceful"

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 14, 2012 12:25 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 00:43, 14 Sep 2012.

Quote:

I'm not talking about cowards, or hotheads - I'm talking about people who will simply not target anything considered "sacred" by others in discussion with the intend to ridicule it.


I have yet to see such people.
Quote:

In my opinion, it's really easy to sit on high moral horse and throw "Muslims suck" opinions around, but when you're practically raised, like a dog, to do things EXACTLY like that, it's not so easy anymore to distinguish right from wrong.


So what? I asking you, so what? Just because they have been brought up by dogma does not mean that they cant learn to overcome it.
But I agree, the power of dogma cannot be underestimated.
Quote:

Can you say the same about an average Muslim from a deeply theocratic country?


In a deeply theocratic country, words against islam are met with, probably, death penalty or imprisonment.
Quote:

Not really. See, no one really brainwashed you into going around the internet and typing stuff like "snow your God".


That problem with those words should not even be taken into consideration as I edited it.
Quote:

You're doing it because it annoys you.


Its not just annoyance, its hatred.
It annoys me most when some of them come up with "SCIENTIFIC FACT DISPROVES EVOLOTION" (Written in capitals) and, mostly some islamic dude, comes along as says the Quran is the truth or there is Science in the quran.......
But as always, saying "I hate religious people" is just an argument for the religious guys to make another baseless assumption.
Quote:

However, if you were truly emphatic, you would realize that this fairy tale holds a special place in the hearts of people you ridicule or criticize.


Not when you hate something. When you hate something or somebody, you dont feel any empathy. My actual response would be "I dont care about how special their beliefs are. They either respect secular laws and science based schools or they can go back to where they came."
Quote:

The mother comparison is a good one, I think.


Not really. A mother is not a completely fictional person.
Emotionally, religious people might consider their religion even more important than their parents.
Quote:

If I insulted deeply your mother (assuming you have a good connection with her), you would probably feel hurt, or bad, in some way. I could simply say "hey, it's not my mother, I don't care, she means nothing to me", It would be true. However, would truth mean I'm entitled to saying those harsh words?


If it was a baseless insult, no. Otherwise,yes.
Quote:

I really think you should learn to respect the things people value, Seraphim.
Even if they feel utterly moronic to you.


Respect is something that is earned.
Quote:

So, if I steal your cow, you're entitled to steal mine?


Actually, the word tolerance is not so suitable. Conform would be better. Conforming to secular laws, human rights and allowing the regular work of science teachers at schools.
Tolerance has a weird atribute. Tolerating the intolerant, intolerant towards tolerants and so on.. In effect, its impossible to please everybody.
Quote:

There's an important moral behind tolerating those who not tolerate us. It's the fact that we're not lowering ourselves to their level.


Thats beautiful and such but that does not contribute to a safe society. What is the point of bearing with such people then?
You will have to wait for generations untill such people can grasp what a secular society is.
Quote:

I think nobody sane would disagree that radical Muslims are intolerant. But that's not the point. The point is that responding to intolerance with even more intolerance leads nowhere.

If Islam was banned in europe, these people would have NO rights to scream about how awesome quran or their god is. They would scream "Injustice" and so on, but they would have to LIVE with the new reality.
At least, islam would disappear from public space. No more minaret BS, no more sharia courts, no more burqas.
Heck, I would give them free tickets to dubai if they did not want to live in Europe anymore.
Quote:

I think you would watch your words. I myself would avoid disagreeing with people if I viewed them as "not very peaceful"

Of course, thats the rational way to preserve oneself. But please, why the heck should one agree with a lunatic? Especially a petty student?
If that guy really got deeply insulted, why the hell did he come to live in France? He can happily emigrate back.
I would remove immigrants, especially from muslim countries, their right for a permanent citizenship up to 2 generations.
In effect, even the nephews of them should be able to get sent back.

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