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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted February 17, 2015 11:20 AM |
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Didn't mean to sound harsh, it was this bit that made me respond:
emilsn91 said:
To me the most important thing to me is to remain faith and still believe in [...] the good in muslims.
I found it was emphasizing too much on his religious beliefs, after all if we want to put him in this box, then clearly what he does isn't representative for the billion large muslim population anyway.
@Sal
I read shortly about the flower thing, to me it's somewhat insignificant. I think there's this controversy because there has been no case and no verdict yet, currently everything is based on assumptions and speculation from what I understood.
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Living time backwards
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted February 18, 2015 05:35 AM |
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted February 18, 2015 11:50 AM |
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Hans Teeuwen <3 His statement that any power structure has to be subject of ridicule otherwise it would be totally consumed by itself, is both rationql and succinct, and definitely the best answer i've heard anyone give to such a question.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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emilsn91
Supreme Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 01:05 PM |
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The flower thing was all about it not being very islamic to put flowers on graves..
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2015 01:37 PM |
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Lexxan said:
Hans Teeuwen <3 His statement that any power structure has to be subject of ridicule otherwise it would be totally consumed by itself, is both rationql and succinct, and definitely the best answer i've heard anyone give to such a question.
Not that I didnt like the guy, he was cool and witty in a very uncomfortable situation. But his reply is like THE most classical reply to that question, it's not like he came up with it himself.
emilsn91 said:
The flower thing was all about it not being very islamic to put flowers on graves..
It's not anti-Islamic either. Actually, I don't know since when (probably 20th century) but it's a tradition to send flowers to funerals here, also. I never heard of an Imam objecting to it. I dont know about Arabic tradition(s) though, especially the wahabi sect can be very literal about sticking to 7th century way of life and even gravestones or mousoleums are considered paganic and therefore forbidden to them.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted February 18, 2015 01:53 PM |
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The three veiled harpies were pathetic though, then barbarosa guy scared me.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2015 02:40 PM |
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Sal said:
The three veiled harpies...
"Fair is foul, and foul is fair:
Hover through the fog and filthy air." 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted February 18, 2015 03:27 PM |
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Zenofex
Responsible
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 18, 2015 07:41 PM |
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In case you don't follow the developments, one of the sites of recent democratic bombardments which is now half-overrun by jihadists threatens to become ISIS gateway to Europe, using refugee disguise. Apparently Italy in particular takes this quite seriously. Gaddafi probably laughs from the grave.
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Salamandre
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posted February 18, 2015 07:48 PM |
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Shut, Iraq war brought freedom and democracy. Only coincidences.
Cosmology and aviation explained by islamic scholar. 
Click
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Era II mods and utilities
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 08:47 PM |
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Logic too good
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Neraus
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Pain relief cream seller
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posted February 18, 2015 10:43 PM |
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Zenofex said:
In case you don't follow the developments, one of the sites of recent democratic bombardments which is now half-overrun by jihadists threatens to become ISIS gateway to Europe, using refugee disguise. Apparently Italy in particular takes this quite seriously. Gaddafi probably laughs from the grave.
From their words we are a Crusader state...
Where is our Deus Vult?
But really, this thing scares me incredibly, especially considering that immigrants have to pass from Sicily...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted February 21, 2015 03:27 PM |
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Salamandre said:
OhforfSake said:
Just because he's a bad muslim doesn't mean muslim's are bad.
You know, just because Hitler was bad, doesn't mean germans are bad. yet they followed him and we know what happened next.
You are right. The germans and japanese during WW2 were not necessarily bad but look at what they did when they followed their leaders. America should have finished them off with the same cruelty and mercilessness they themselves had for their victims. Instead, America wasted taxpayer money on those barbarians and befriended them and look what we got now! Two humanitarian economic superpowers... If not killed off, they could have been stripped of their wealth like germany after WW1 or at the very least been generalized and bullied under a negative stereotype. Good thing we have learned our lesson now and know that Islam and muslims are hopeless and must be destroyed or converted to our way of life...
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Chelsea Fans Kick Black Man Off Of Paris Train
According to islamophobic law(logic), all Chelsea fans are now racist and the Chelsea team must be banned from playing football in all civilized non-racist countries...
Kareem Abdul Jabbars KKK Analogy Sums Up ISIS Perfectly
Some good points...
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Zenofex
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posted February 21, 2015 03:57 PM |
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That's a really poor analogy. Radical Islam that breeds terrorism is largely a result exactly of the colonial policy in the Middle East - first from Europe, then from the US. Radical Islamists are not a country or a nation, you can't find them on the map, you can't apply international sanctions against them or even identify them among the general Muslim population in many cases (which is why they blacken the reputation of all Muslims). They are not defeated so they can be "redeemed", nor there is any sign that they can be defeated as long as the root cause for their existence - the vastly irresponsible, short-sighted and uneducated policy of the Western countries in the Middle East - is in place.
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Salamandre
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posted February 21, 2015 04:49 PM |
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GunFred said:
look what we got now! Two humanitarian economic superpowers...
The flaw is that Germans were already humanitarians, and germans were already a economic superpower, this is not the result of the war. Hitler was a parenthesis, although very evil one we agree, but the germans sensibility, culture and moral values were always similar if not stronger to European neighborhood.
While Islam shares none of those values, it is a conqueror and aggressive religion where the apostasy is punished by death in the Islamic law, I hope you are aware. Concerning human rights, Islam wins the first prise of the hypocrisy: when Islam is in minority, it talks and whines a lot about minorities and universal human rights, then when Islam becomes the majority, those rights are not only ignored but even the basics one-the equality of women- are violated.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 21, 2015 05:10 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:15, 21 Feb 2015.
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If our standards are post-enlightenment standards involving modern law, that is so indeed. Before that, there is no civilizational gap, actually, there are many situations where the East is much more tolerant in such matters, Jews escaping from Catholic Spain to Muslim Istanbul during 16th Century seems awkward to many now, but before 1948, there wasnt such a conflict between Muslims and Jews. Another example would be the Orthodox Christians prefering the very invasion of Istanbul by Mehmed, to a Catholic invasion (since Muslims let you be if you paid an extra tax while Catholics killed the heretics.)
Even the most intolerant and violant Wahabi sect is founded in 19th century. Cultures tend to get more aggressive if they are slowly decaying or they are surrounded by change they cant catch up with and dont know what to do about it. There is a series I linked in the doc thread, History of the World by Andrew Marr, I recommend the episode on 19th century where it explains how industalization led by Europe caused havoc and war synchronically in Russia, America and Japan.
Actually, while at it, I recommend the whole series once again here. The guy is incredibly good at proposing perspectives. It has softcore English subtitles on the net, too, to catch up with the names and stuff.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted February 22, 2015 08:43 AM |
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Zenofex said:
That's a really poor analogy. Radical Islam that breeds terrorism is largely a result exactly of the colonial policy in the Middle East - first from Europe, then from the US. Radical Islamists are not a country or a nation, you can't find them on the map, you can't apply international sanctions against them or even identify them among the general Muslim population in many cases (which is why they blacken the reputation of all Muslims). They are not defeated so they can be "redeemed", nor there is any sign that they can be defeated as long as the root cause for their existence - the vastly irresponsible, short-sighted and uneducated policy of the Western countries in the Middle East - is in place.
It is possible that you misunderstood my intentions with my text so I am unsure of what to reply. My text may have been confusing but I was trying to point out the idiocy in the current handling of Islam while and comparing it to peaceful and historical success stories. (hopefully I am not even further confusing)
Salamandre said:
GunFred said:
look what we got now! Two humanitarian economic superpowers...
The flaw is that Germans were already humanitarians, and germans were already a economic superpower, this is not the result of the war. Hitler was a parenthesis, although very evil one we agree, but the germans sensibility, culture and moral values were always similar if not stronger to European neighborhood.
While Islam shares none of those values, it is a conqueror and aggressive religion where the apostasy is punished by death in the Islamic law, I hope you are aware. Concerning human rights, Islam wins the first prise of the hypocrisy: when Islam is in minority, it talks and whines a lot about minorities and universal human rights, then when Islam becomes the majority, those rights are not only ignored but even the basics one-the equality of women- are violated.
I have heard that the Nazis were good on animal rights but I doubt you could call Germany and its people humanitarian at the time. I got the impression that the whole of Europe was on fire with nationalism and according to yourself, not standing up against the elite few makes you responsible as well. And tell the post WW1 germans that they were an economic superpower. Sure, the germans were close to the western victors at the time but how close was Japan? How close was Vietnam after fighting a bloody war with the USA? I am telling you, McDonald's is a many times cheaper/profitable, humanitarian and stronger weapon that bombs and segregation will ever be.
Also, Artu and Kareem make some good points about how it is wrong to completely judge a religion like Islam, based on the actions of its worst few. ISIS today use basically the same Koran as the ottomans used in the past when saving those jews from catholic spain. And spain of the past probably used the same Bible back then as today when they hunted jews. Almost any group can turn to intolerance when given the chance. Not even Buddhist monks or progressive atheists are spared from this truth.
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Salamandre
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posted February 22, 2015 09:06 AM |
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But I don't judge Islam on Isis base, I never talk about Isis. Isis is fighting muslims as well. I talk about the 70% muslims from every Islamic nation who vote for Islamic sharia: apostasy punished by death, adultery punished by stoning to death, women denied of any rights and so on. 70% from 1 billion and half, thats quite noticeable. Then it is same people who vote for such caveman laws that is immigrating in Europe, importing all the problems and contributing to our newspapers wealth.
Then each time something chilling happens "in the name of Islam", I don't hear enough strong voices from Islams officials countering and condemning it. Take the Danish: several hundreds of muslims went to testimony their respect for the killer, praying on his grave. Where was the imam, all the imams, to denounce this?
Nowhere.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 22, 2015 10:28 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:29, 22 Feb 2015.
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Yes, that is a problem and if you're not blindly "politically correct" you can see that the issue isn't just a few extremists. It's also a vicious circle, where as in developed countries average people can find many things to have meaning and achievement in life; art, science, a successful business and wealth, travel the world etc.. an average Middle Eastern person in a war zone or most of the poor immigrants in the ghettos have nothing but religion to hold onto and nothing corrupts judgement like religion. It's a psychological process of emotional attachment and a bond of identification that makes the person perceive every reasonable counter argument or eye-opening event as a "test of faith." Religious people keep believing for no logical reason and they act upon horrible things for that faith and the worst part is, they are under the terrible delusion that this is a NOBLE thing.(For example, in the Bible, when Thomas wants to see the nail holes in his hands to believe the resurrection, what does Jesus say: "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.") And that mindset combined with poverty and politics leads to organized reproduction of ignorance.
Anyway, I got too theological, bottom line is, yes, there are Muslim crowds whose values greatly conflict with a liberal democracy and mutual respect, the problem wont go away by bombing a few ISIS militants, I think it will keep on being an issue for at least another 50-70 years. By then, we can hope not only the Muslim mayor but also the Muslim doorman will start to think more like this.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted February 25, 2015 10:52 PM |
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Salamandre said:
But I don't judge Islam on Isis base, I never talk about Isis. Isis is fighting muslims as well. I talk about the 70% muslims from every Islamic nation who vote for Islamic sharia: apostasy punished by death, adultery punished by stoning to death, women denied of any rights and so on. 70% from 1 billion and half, thats quite noticeable. Then it is same people who vote for such caveman laws that is immigrating in Europe, importing all the problems and contributing to our newspapers wealth.
Then each time something chilling happens "in the name of Islam", I don't hear enough strong voices from Islams officials countering and condemning it. Take the Danish: several hundreds of muslims went to testimony their respect for the killer, praying on his grave. Where was the imam, all the imams, to denounce this?
Nowhere.
I made a more detailed response the same day but Explorer decided to stop working when I was almost finished so I got pissed and only got motivated again now...
You talk about the danish muslims who glorified the murderer but what about the norwegian muslims who in response made a symbolic protection circle around a synagog? What about your very own french muslims who denounced the killings in Paris or the muslim groups which denounced 9/11 only to hear "Where are the muslims denouncing this?". Your kind is always like this. Whining about how muslims are not condemning the actions of fanatics and lone wolves enough or at all. Despite the fact that major muslim organisations and groups does it all the time but you people do not care to listen anyway since you are morally lazy and convenient. Xenophobic activists/politicians will keep it up until muslims screams disgust for their own religion and people into their ears.
Did you notice that I generalized you as a xenophobic/islamophobic right-winger? Was it unfair and perhaps even insulting? Well, I am just following the same rules that the despicable people I am talking about do.
About those unlikely 70%. It is strange that considering the supposedly generous immigration policies in nordic countries, more people have been killed in tiny Norway by a self-proclaimed crusader than by muslim terrorists in all of the nordics combined(perhaps including France as well). Yet Breivik (who is clearly just a crazy lone wolf and not a product of society at all) gets the PlayStation treatment while the entire muslim community gets the evil eye.
Why Dont Moderate Muslims Condemn Terrorism? They Do.
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This thread is pages long: 
