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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 26, 2015 03:25 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 03:32, 26 Feb 2015.
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i never see muslims speaking out about whatever atrocities are committed by their supposed "members"( ).
and i think the reason why, is that popular media doesn't want sympathy for muslims. they need a "bad guy" to rail against. they need ratings. they will do what they can to divide people, and they will do what they can to profit from it.
but then, i try not to watch "news" too much(so i could be wrong about any pro-muslim coverage. the stupidity and propaganda only anger me. you have to sort through a mountain of bullsnow to get to the truth. and the "truth" is nearly always too convoluted anyway to disseminate anything for yourself.
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edit: wtf is up with the delayed posting? i got a triple post after the submit button was freezing the screen.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 26, 2015 06:03 AM |
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Why should I continue a one way dialog with [CoC censured] people calling me xenophobe, morally lazy and despicable while I was politely offering you arguments -interrogate about universal Islamic laws, the laws applied in every Muslim country and forcibly exported as moral values wherever Muslim immigration is occurring? You play deaf, then just keep calling names, as every irresponsible leftist politician among those selling their country for a few votes. And the Breivik argument, to balance killings number is weak. I never spoke about killed people or Isis, but about a serious cultural shock convulsing all Europe, in this precise moment. Are you blind at such point to deny that last facts are relevant about how integration failed all around?
I don't whine, I defend what I believe being my values, my fellows values, my nation's values. What do you defend, except the "admire how tolerant I am and those not thinking my way me are despicable and [...]phobe"?
That's the backside of discussing serious things over the INTERNET and smart people should know when to give up. With deaf people, things are addressed through voting, not talking.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted February 26, 2015 07:35 AM |
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Sal, xenophobic/islamophobic or not, I do not think that you are a terrible person but I was making an important point. And as I suspected, you did not enjoy being generalized at all. You should treat others like you want to be treated yourself and tell me. If you have to ask why you should continue a dialogue with me after what I say, then why would any muslim have that dialogue with you?
I have talked about integration before and how insufficient most european are policies are. There are some great individuals who would not be here if not for generous immigration policies but irresponsible immigration policies result in segregation and cultural enclaves. Both the former and isolationist policies lead to ideological and intellectual incest while having a smart immigration policy leads to brighter and more open individuals, humanitarianism as well as cheaper manpower(as in less of their childhoods drains national resources). Left alone, immigrants can't create the positive effects themselves in the grand scale.
About being deaf, perhaps you feel exactly the same but I feel like everything I write goes past your eyes while I adress your comments.
Lastly, I do not defend my image. I defend those that need to be defended. I would defend moderate and peaceful muslims from generalizing xenophobes, jews from fundamentalist muslims and nazis or atheists and homosexuals from authoritarian theocrats.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted February 26, 2015 06:09 PM |
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GunFred said:
You talk about the danish muslims who glorified the murderer but what about the norwegian muslims who in response made a symbolic protection circle around a synagog?
What about your very own french muslims who denounced the killings in Paris or the muslim groups which denounced 9/11 only to hear "Where are the muslims denouncing this?". Your kind is always like this.
Whining about how muslims are not condemning the actions of fanatics and lone wolves enough or at all. Despite the fact that major muslim organisations and groups does it all the time but you people do not care to listen anyway since you are morally lazy and convenient. Xenophobic activists/politicians will keep it up until muslims screams disgust for their own religion and people into their ears.
About those unlikely 70%. It is strange that considering the supposedly generous immigration policies in nordic countries, more people have been killed in tiny Norway by a self-proclaimed crusader than by muslim terrorists in all of the nordics combined(perhaps including France as well). Yet Breivik (who is clearly just a crazy lone wolf and not a product of society at all) gets the PlayStation treatment while the entire muslim community gets the evil eye.
Why Dont Moderate Muslims Condemn Terrorism? They Do.
After reading what you just wrote I can conclude that you got no expertise in this matter at all. You simply assume things.(a lot of things.)
Let's start with the synagog-circle. It was only 20 muslims, the rest were just norweigan sympathizers. So please get your facts straight.
Regarding the french shooting. Have you ever bothered to read the Quran at all? I very much doubt you have as most people give up after about page 20. But I have read that infernal book.
But since the format of the book is somewhat of a sleep pill, let me break it down into more a "suitable" sentance.
It states that if you are talking with a non muslim, you are to lie the dogs in the face. (And I am not going to say what happens later)
Now given this information, do you think there is a problem to lash out on their own? No, cause they can simply say it knowing everything is a lie. Likewise won't any outsiders be able to take their word for being true.
As for your jump on Sala...
GunFred said:
Did you notice that I generalized you as a xenophobic/islamophobic right-winger?
Yes it was. For you know very little of him and he can also be a left-winger aswell, so once again you just assume things.
GunFred said:
Was it unfair and perhaps even insulting?
What makes you think it would not be? Your spite here is obvious.
GunFred said:
Well, I am just following the same rules that the despicable people I am talking about do.
Ever heard the saying: Two wrong does not make a right?
Now as for the matter of numbers. Yes there has not been a lot of deaths in the north caused by terrorism. Why? Cause we are lucky that most schemes are put down before they blossom, or that the perpetrators fumble and fail. (Thinking of the Stockholm incident where the crook only managed to blow up himself in the car).
GunFred said:
Yet Breivik (who is clearly just a crazy lone wolf and not a product of society at all) gets the PlayStation treatment while the entire muslim community gets the evil eye.
To wrap this post up. Breivik was not crazy. He was a cold blooded murderer but not a lunatic. And he got a playstation...hallelujah. Swedish prisons would have given him a cell similar to a 4-star hotel. So I assure you, there are worse prisons (or should I say good?) out there in the world.
My personal opinion of this Islam matter is simple. I can devide muslims into two groups. A) Fanatics who clings to the Quran to the letter or B) Liars saying they don't agree with the killing. The Quran states that you shall slaughter anyone who refuses the holy words so many times that I lost count.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 26, 2015 06:39 PM |
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1- Although, the theology of Islam is more direct about applying "the word of God" compared to other Abrahamic religions, saying all muslims practice it or wish to practice it mot a mot is hardly accurate. Cultures never work that way, nobody interprets the texts exactly like they were interpreted 1400 years ago, social change always prevails. Islam do have many issues regarding that but your perspective is just as radical as your opposite, people exist that wont take every verse literally. Imagine what would happen if you judge modern jews by how adultery is punished in the Old Testament and you'll have a picture about your reductionism.
2- Even if every Muslim had practiced every verse of Quran literally, it's not okay to slaughter members of other Abrahamic religions in Islam, unless they attack you first. It's considered okay to conquer them with open warfare and tax them but you cant kill them for no reason. And you are only allowed to lie to protect your faith but one can say that is quite open to interpretation. Still, the social reality is, most people wouldnt apply the Quran when it comes to warfare, if it wasnt engaged in such a historical context. That's why Muslims from Malesia and Afghanistan are different regarding their animosity to the "infidels" when we look at the overall population.
Once again, I'm aware that the culture itself has many compatibility issues, yet trying to freeze the situation at the level you do is quite one-dimensional and reductionist.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted February 26, 2015 07:44 PM |
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The problem is Artu, that you cannot just pick the raisins out of the cookie. The Quran does say on many accounts, that you cannot disobey, change or delude the holy words. If the book says one has to kill, then that is sadly what one has commited to.
artu said:
people exist that wont take every verse literally
And according to the book itself, they should be slaughtered for heresy if they do.
artu said:
Imagine what would happen if you judge modern jews by how adultery is punished in the Old Testament and you'll have a picture about your reductionism.
Frankly this is a very poor example. First of all most cultures had a rather cruel vision on adultery in ages past. secondly, you have failed to notice a crucial fact here. Religion and Law are not to be mixed up. Punishment is determined by the law and the problem with following religion, is that said laws and punishments comes with the religion, if you think those punishments are gross then don't follow the religion, end of story.
Now the problem with religion overall is that changing of the holy words, is deemed to be heresy. So I am sorry, it does not matter if it is a christian, jew or muslim - if you change/interpret the holy words in a different manner than originally intended, then you are picking the raisins out of the cookie. Which is a rather problematic act. It is like me saying "I am a vegetarian, but only on Tuesdays and Thursdays!".
artu said:
2- Even if every Muslim had practiced every verse of Quran literally, it's not okay to slaughter members of other Abrahamic religions in Islam, unless they attack you first. It's considered okay to conquer them with open warfare and tax them but you cant kill them for no reason.
Wrong. You may attack anyone who does not walk the path of the Quran. But just for fun, let's say this fact of yours would be true, what fate would befall ateists, hinduists, budhists, old norse practitioners etc?
artu said:
And you are only allowed to lie to protect your faith but one can say that is quite open to interpretation.
You are allowed to lie to anyone who does not walk your path. Remember, they are nothing but dogs.
artu said:
Still, the social reality is, most people wouldnt apply the Quran when it comes to warfare, if it wasnt engaged in such a historical context.
The actual reality is, they do not have the power and influence to wage an all out war. But after reading their book I personally have no doubts I would not be sitting here if they did.
artu said:
That's why Muslims from Malesia and Afghanistan are different regarding their animosity to the "infidels" when we look at the overall population.
For the last time, you cannot pick the raisins out of the cookie. If you agree to it, you agree to ALL of it. Even the draconic book itself says what happens if you dare to challenge the holy words.
artu said:
Once again, I'm aware that the culture itself has many compatibility issues, yet trying to freeze the situation at the level you do is quite one-dimensional and reductionist.
I am sorry but this is the level you have to start at Artu. If death and hatred are the roots, then the fruit will be shaped thereafter. Call me a reductionist if you will, but the fact remains you nor I would sit here and have this little discussion of ours should Islam be in charge.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 26, 2015 07:51 PM |
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artu said:
1- Although, the theology of Islam is more direct about applying "the word of God" compared to other Abrahamic religions, saying all muslims practice it or wish to practice it mot a mot is hardly accurate. Cultures never work that way, nobody interprets the texts exactly like they were interpreted 1400 years ago, social change always prevails. Islam do have many issues regarding that but your perspective is just as radical as your opposite, people exist that wont take every verse literally. Imagine what would happen if you judge modern jews by how adultery is punished in the Old Testament and you'll have a picture about your reductionism.
Thing is, Christianity evolved throughout the history and can perfectly fit a normal, modern society. Islam never evolved that way. A lot of the rules, the ways of how Islam is taught in Islamic countries fits middle ages at best. For example, even though the Catholic Church did some laughable stuff like debating over whether women have souls, it eventually turned into a mysogyny-free environment. Islam never changed, Women are still assumed property more than human beings.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 26, 2015 08:28 PM |
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The Middle-East is not exactly the same topic as Islam, although they are quite interlinked. Women rights is a fairly new concept even in the West by historical standards, they werent allowed to vote, own property just a century or two ago almost anywhere. The nomadic tribes of the desert are of course much more primitive and less sophisticated in this matter but I dont think it's possible for any culture to prolong such inequality for another, say, 500 years, anyway. The question is, how persistent will the resistence be, not if it will win in the end because it cant. You cant turn back the clock, you can only slow it down a little and that's what religion does (specifically Islam but not only Islam, Christianity is still also responsible for many issues regarding abortion, stem cell research, rights of homosexuals, marital law, scientific education... The list goes on.)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 26, 2015 08:40 PM |
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Many sociologists supported thesis as yours, artu. 20 years ago, they claimed Islam will successfully integrate in your society, because it can't be the other way; they assured us. The majority of politics in Europe are still based on those sociologists speculations, yet history proved that not only Islam proved to be very resistant, but it even modified the environment to suit its preferences, and now is exerting constant pressure, both by self-victimization and excessive breeding. So I don't buy anymore the "intellectual debate" about Islam while my eyes continue to see the daily conflict.
This is what happens when one naively or on purpose believes humanity's goal is harmony while it is and already was: gain power. Both at an individual and universal level.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 26, 2015 09:04 PM |
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I am not as hasty as your sociologists, I already said we'll have issues for at least another 50-70 years. It wont be the search for harmony that changes things, traditions die when the circumstances that cause them to evolve die, that's why all the hunter-gatherer religions are dead and that's why the agri-cultural religions (at least in their current form) will die (or adapt).
I understand on a personal basis this doesnt mean much, you know what Lord Keynes says, "in the long run, we are all dead. " I complain about Muslim conservatism all the time, too. (And if you think France is bad, just try Turkey!) But no religion is strong enough to reverse history.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 26, 2015 09:12 PM |
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Meanwhile allow me to be a little chilled by people stoning other people for adultery or whatever sin it may be, and this at only a few hundred kilometers of other people who walked on the moon 50 years ago. I mean, except America's discovery-and this was due to geographical isolation, you will hardly find any similar situation through history who can teach us about possible outcome.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 26, 2015 09:15 PM |
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Are we talking about Muslims in remote villages in the Middle-East here or are we talking about immigrants in modern cities? Do you think a 4th generation Muslim from Paris will stone his wife to death for adultery?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 26, 2015 09:24 PM |
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As I said years ago (was there some other thread about immigration I think?), the core problem in Europe is that sociologists gave a false estimation of Islam immigration outcome (they should be stoned btw) so the main politic during decades was to let anyone enter in.
This 4th muslim generation-as you call them- took 4 generations to assimilate and surely the nation is proud about. But: 200k new freely enter each year and they add to the equation. Maths never lie: if you want to boil water, you don't add fresh water every one minute.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted February 26, 2015 10:06 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
After reading what you just wrote I can conclude that you got no expertise in this matter at all. You simply assume things.(a lot of things.)
Let's start with the synagog-circle. It was only 20 muslims, the rest were just norweigan sympathizers. So please get your facts straight.
Regarding the french shooting. Have you ever bothered to read the Quran at all? I very much doubt you have as most people give up after about page 20. But I have read that infernal book.
But since the format of the book is somewhat of a sleep pill, let me break it down into more a "suitable" sentance.
It states that if you are talking with a non muslim, you are to lie the dogs in the face. (And I am not going to say what happens later)
Now given this information, do you think there is a problem to lash out on their own? No, cause they can simply say it knowing everything is a lie. Likewise won't any outsiders be able to take their word for being true.
As for your jump on Sala...
GunFred said:
Did you notice that I generalized you as a xenophobic/islamophobic right-winger?
Yes it was. For you know very little of him and he can also be a left-winger aswell, so once again you just assume things.
GunFred said:
Was it unfair and perhaps even insulting?
What makes you think it would not be? Your spite here is obvious.
GunFred said:
Well, I am just following the same rules that the despicable people I am talking about do.
Ever heard the saying: Two wrong does not make a right?
Now as for the matter of numbers. Yes there has not been a lot of deaths in the north caused by terrorism. Why? Cause we are lucky that most schemes are put down before they blossom, or that the perpetrators fumble and fail. (Thinking of the Stockholm incident where the crook only managed to blow up himself in the car).
GunFred said:
Yet Breivik (who is clearly just a crazy lone wolf and not a product of society at all) gets the PlayStation treatment while the entire muslim community gets the evil eye.
To wrap this post up. Breivik was not crazy. He was a cold blooded murderer but not a lunatic. And he got a playstation...hallelujah. Swedish prisons would have given him a cell similar to a 4-star hotel. So I assure you, there are worse prisons (or should I say good?) out there in the world.
My personal opinion of this Islam matter is simple. I can devide muslims into two groups. A) Fanatics who clings to the Quran to the letter or B) Liars saying they don't agree with the killing. The Quran states that you shall slaughter anyone who refuses the holy words so many times that I lost count.
It is possible that you yourself is the one who got your facts straight which would be embarressing if so, considering what you said. Searching for "norwegian synagogue muslim ring" on google got many results about closer to a thousand muslims. The top one I do not recognise but it mentions a conservative theory about there being only "20" just like you claimed.
About the Quran. The Bible and probably the Torah as well, say lots of terrible things but we do not treat moderate christians and jews based on their worst scriptures. Maybe you would like to but that would take generalization and anti-religious freedom to a whole new level for everyone. It has also already been stated in this thread that all religions are capable of IS like horrors and that the books are just the excuses. There are buddhist monks preying(not praying) for muslim victims to beat up, there are orthodox jews that make moderate muslims look like the guardians of the galaxy. There are sensible historical reasons to why the followers of the Quran are doing what they are doing today and not the followers of the Bible, but explaining some factors would be tiresome if nobody cares and I think Artu or somebody else have already done so.
About Sal, thanks for proving my point even further. 
It was not ok for me to generalize Sal. It was unfair, he got upset and as you said, I do not know him in personal. But I made a point out of it and like they said in kindergarten "if you are in the game, you have to endure the game", meaning that you can't complain when your are treated with your own medicin. Hopefully the point got through and Sal won't blame any moderate jews for the actions and ideas of radical orthodox jews.
About nordic terrorism. It is not like we got some super cool secret organisation that stops evil deeds before they are carried out. Closer to the truth would be that our militaries are not very active in the middle east compared to others and most terrorists are busy blowing up other muslims rather than some obscure northern nations. Most muslims up here are probably enjoying their iPhones and enjoying life too much to consider counter-productive terrorism even though there definitly are pockets of fundamentalism. Young swedish men going to fight in Syria have been and the comming back to be patched up have been common news the last few months here.
"who is clearly just a crazy lone wolf and not a product of society at all" Was actually meant to be what islamophobic defenders of Breivik could say but I can see why you misunderstood. I was disappointed that he ended up in a cozy prison but even more so after what Norway has become after the deed. (Further rightwing and very close to actually punishing people who helped beggars by law recently)
Personally I would divide muslims into 3 groups. Group 1 are harmful fundamentalists like Al Qeada or Boko Haram that should be destroyed as soon as they dare aim their guns at innocents. Group 2 are innocent and harmless but conservative muslims. I do not like these people very much but they are the masses and their future should be faught for so they turn into group 3. Group 3 are good people who has adapted to secular society just as well as any christian or jew. These people are the desired future of muslims and are an important weapon against group 1. Don't forget, McDonald's is cheaper and stronger than bombs when fighting against group 2.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 26, 2015 10:18 PM |
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If McDonalds chains will replace the kebabs, count me in with the mujahids!
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 26, 2015 10:46 PM |
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me too, I prefer a kebab all the way over their dripping max cheese and all the idiotic advertising we are daily raped with. (don't touch at my rape word!)
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 26, 2015 11:09 PM |
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damn. now i want a kebab.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted February 26, 2015 11:13 PM |
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GunFred said:
It is possible that you yourself is the one who got your facts straight which would be embarressing if so, considering what you said. Searching for "norwegian synagogue muslim ring" on google got many results about closer to a thousand muslims. The top one I do not recognise but it mentions a conservative theory about there being only "20" just like you claimed.
It was only 20. The newspaper Osloby.no was misinterpreted when they wrote "1300 persons, whereof a great deal of ethnic norwegians" had been on the scene without actually participating in the ring ceremony.
What happened was that they photographed a few of them holding hands and then preached all were muslims. Even witnesses claimed there were more than 20 times more muslims at Omar Abdel Hamid El-Husseins funeral in Copenhagen. Which was on about 500 if I recall correctly.
GunFred said:
About the Quran. The Bible and probably the Torah as well, say lots of terrible things but we do not treat moderate christians and jews based on their worst scriptures. Maybe you would like to but that would take generalization and anti-religious freedom to a whole new level for everyone.
Maybe we don't because we aren't following said regulations of the religions? But you are right that there are people who would commit atrocious acts to rid the world of religions.
GunFred said:
"if you are in the game, you have to endure the game", meaning that you can't complain when your are treated with your own medicin.
You are correct but all I can say is: We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.
GunFred said:
About nordic terrorism. It is not like we got some super cool secret organisation that stops evil deeds before they are carried out.
Indeed, which makes this immigration mess even more troublesome.
GunFred said:
Closer to the truth would be that our militaries are not very active in the middle east compared to others and most terrorists are busy blowing up other muslims rather than some obscure northern nations. Most muslims up here are probably enjoying their iPhones and enjoying life too much to consider counter-productive terrorism even though there definitly are pockets of fundamentalism.
I hope you don't speak of the Swedish military here, as it is next to nothing now.
Although muslims have gotten relatively sweet lives here in Sweden, it has come at the expense of the tax payers. So to put this in layman's terms:I fund Iphones for someone who in pure truth would like to have me dead for not being part of the same religion.
GunFred said:
I was disappointed that he ended up in a cozy prison but even more so after what Norway has become after the deed. (Further rightwing and very close to actually punishing people who helped beggars by law recently)
This does not just apply to Breivik, but to all trials leading to the judgement of imprisonment. Sadly socialism lies at the bottom of this due to the "poor fella" thinking and how it is the perpetrator who's the victim.
GunFred said:
Personally I would divide muslims into 3 groups.
Like I said before I only divide them into two groups, but that is my opinion.
Edit:Kebab is good, but nothing beats a lasagna!
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 01:00 AM |
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Ebonheart said:
Kebab is good, but nothing beats a lasagna!
you got me there.
as for muslims causing trouble, i would say they cause the same amount of trouble as the christians and catholics did over the span of their religions.
who knows, maybe it's the muslims turn to commit atrocities.
but i'm not big on history(meaning, i couldn't give a rat's ass), so maybe they were already in the running for "most violent religion"?
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted February 27, 2015 07:06 AM |
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Now that this has turned into a kebab thread...
Kebab is probably one of the few ways that the middle eastern culture has affected western culture. Kebab for iPhones, fair trade? Seems the guys above me think so. 
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This thread is pages long: 
