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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 06, 2016 08:25 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 20:27, 06 Jan 2016.
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Ad hominem much? What do you know about my views exactly, except your suppositions?
You and Trump are the farthest thing from the truth.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 06, 2016 08:51 PM |
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The mayor of Cologne tells German women to avoid proximity with "strangers"
Almost saying that women are guilty of existing freely. 
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 06, 2016 08:56 PM |
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If you want more cultures, you have to deal with all of them, not just ignore what some do. Not sure that politicians thought over that part.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted January 06, 2016 08:58 PM |
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So basically, don't teach women to avoid rape teach men not to rape has been subverted?
Or is it another case of "It's fine when we do it!"?
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 06, 2016 09:53 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Minion, I play the card of truth, stop swinging around. I understand that for you, a such enthusiastic worshiper of the multiculturalism and immigration, it is each time so embarrassing to observe its harmful effects and consequences, effects which can lead to only one conclusion: you were dead wrong on it and more or less responsible of conflicts it creates.
So sure, if there is one rape and 100+ sexual harassment done by a distinct group of men, ethnically similar, and not a mass rape (2 would be mass? or maybe 3? introducing a finger in the v****a is not rape for you? read the articles) then there is no reason to be worried about, lets knell even lower and purify all our holes.
Look at medias, they needed 3 days to bring this, as they know so well where it naturally leads: millions of additional voters for Trump, le Pen, UKIP and company. Therefore they will hide the truth, then when it explodes and can't be smoldered any longer, there will still be some people on the net tracking the messengers and try to debunk them, using every as low as possible attack (me playing the card of censored? those news were hidden during 3 days and you tell me there is no censure?!).
And in the mean time, over 1000 african refugees had a not very unforgettable celebration, where they worshiped exactly the same cultural habits as at home, treat European women as trash.
Congrats, you made that possible.
You make it sound like the government and the media has some conspiracy to hide the problems with immigrants in the EU.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 06, 2016 10:08 PM |
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Shares said:
You make it sound like the government and the media has some conspiracy to hide the problems with immigrants in the EU.
Oh, they do have it. And I bet they want to hide it especially in France and Germany. Right, Sal ?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 06, 2016 10:30 PM |
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This is not a conspiracy, this is a rescue boue. The politicians care about their careers and can't just say to people "sorry but your retirement at 60 yo isn't possible anymore, now you have to work until 80". That would be political suicide. But is the truth. And while avoiding the truth, they have to juggle with the benefits of immigration -pay retirements, and the conflicts of immigration -identity dilution and insecurity.
Or the economical lanterns are on OFF, despite an immense and uncontrolled immigration in the last 30 years. Acknowledging that the whole immigration plan is a disaster for Europe is something only a honest politician could do. Which is an oxymoron.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 07, 2016 02:29 AM |
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Salamandre said:
This is not a conspiracy, this is a rescue boue. The politicians care about their careers and can't just say to people "sorry but your retirement at 60 yo isn't possible anymore, now you have to work until 80". That would be political suicide. But is the truth. And while avoiding the truth, they have to juggle with the benefits of immigration -pay retirements, and the conflicts of immigration -identity dilution and insecurity.
Or the economical lanterns are on OFF, despite an immense and uncontrolled immigration in the last 30 years. Acknowledging that the whole immigration plan is a disaster for Europe is something only a honest politician could do. Which is an oxymoron.
Oh yeah, I don't have much trust for politicians, especially not in an international context. That's a systemic problem that's difficult to solve, but touting the whole "politicians just aren't telling the truth" thing can be dangerous and in particular it can be easily applied to any "truth". Of course, saying that as an argument could be done even when politicians are lying, which undoubtedly happens. That's what we've got the media for and while the media doesn't have an inherent or systemic reason for telling the truth (so we can't assume that they can be trusted either), but they do act under different motivations, so they have different reasons for hiding/bending the truth or even lie. Why would the media to along with such a lock down? The media would be delighted to report scandals about any immigrants in Europe, at least currently. Especially Muslims/Arabs. Simply because there's so many people leaving toward your beliefs and the media wants to sensationalise, confirm and create controversy, because that gets attention. They've got every reason in the world to report and exaggerate such alleged events.
And then we have the third source for "truth", which is science and statistics, but I'll leave that alone for now.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 07, 2016 02:42 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 02:50, 07 Jan 2016.
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Look at Japanese. They live their lives. They have their Kanji and they are happy. Their religion is not *destructive*.
When people first start to think of things in the way that they are *chosen*, the fat is in the fire. I hate when we (citizens) produce such inadequate persons. They believe in this snow on TV. They are so hopeless, but they are many. I can't comprehend what can be done to a young mind by snowty parents. I'm sorry for children who have snowty parents.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 07, 2016 05:01 AM |
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AlexSpl said:
I'm sorry for children who have snowty parents.
the best any kid can do now, is mitigate the damage that their parents and society as a whole does to them. it doesn't help that society continues to replicate itself, when training the young. and it doesn't help that this "training" goes on until the day people die. and it also doesn't help that people don't even snowing SEE this continual "training". it's there, at every stage in life. blatant as a stop sign, and yet few people see it. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 07, 2016 11:19 AM |
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Shares said:
Why would the media to along with such a lock down? The media would be delighted to report scandals about any immigrants in Europe, at least currently. Especially Muslims/Arabs.
Tabloids, maybe. Major medias: not a single one, you are wrong. Simply because all the major medias are supporting leftist and all of them, also, brainwashed the people for years, about immigration benefits, about the moral aspect of loving your neighbor, about the feelings we should have when looking at a drowned kid, about how guilty we should feel about our white bourgeois privileges and about how we should fight against the nazi specter.
So, No. Today I open newspapers, I read "attempt to rape done by 3 afghans (group of 10) armed with knives, female survives because courageous bystander". Date: 10 december!. Now imagine some dumb skinheads attacking refugees camps, you will have the info the same day, in red uppercase, then hammered every day, during weeks, along with discourses about the European "evil" attitude.
Where you live, Shares?
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 07, 2016 04:12 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Tabloids, maybe. Major medias: not a single one, you are wrong. Simply because all the major medias are supporting leftist and all of them, also, brainwashed the people for years, about immigration benefits, about the moral aspect of loving your neighbor, about the feelings we should have when looking at a drowned kid, about how guilty we should feel about our white bourgeois privileges and about how we should fight against the nazi specter.
So, No. Today I open newspapers, I read "attempt to rape done by 3 afghans (group of 10) armed with knives, female survives because courageous bystander". Date: 10 december!. Now imagine some dumb skinheads attacking refugees camps, you will have the info the same day, in red uppercase, then hammered every day, during weeks, along with discourses about the European "evil" attitude.
Where you live, Shares?
And that's exactly the part that I would consider a conspiracy. There are no strong reasons for large media entities to be leftist (unless you want to define "leftist" as anything that questions your beliefs, in which case you should really take a long and good look at your discourse here). A more useful definition would be that "leftist" is anything left of the liberal centre (in a western context, EU in particular). That means socialists and beyond.
The large media entities we've got across Europe are basically all profit driven (I live in Sweden, so we've actually got a few big media entities that aren't, but that's a different matter). They generally don't want to be leftist because socialist politics generally include higher taxes, especially for highly profitable companies and wealthy individuals. Almost any profit-driven corporation would have reason to be opposed to that. The right wing populists, however, are basically just liberal parties with a few populist pieces in there, so profit driven corporations are hardly threatened by that.
As a result of this profit driven functionality they want to be popular, either to sell issues but especially to sell marketing power. More readers/viewers/listeners (consumers) mean they can sell more expensive ads and sell ads more easily, which is the goal of the entire process. This means that if very large parts of the population uses a leftist discourse and ascribes leftist beliefs to themselves, then there could be large media entities with a leftist bend on things. That is not really the case in the EU, though, so that falls short (if it was the case, then we'd see a lot more socialist parties doing extremely well all across the EU. Populist right wing parties are doing much better than socialists, currently). The vast majority of the population follows a liberal discourse and has ideologically liberal values (I could go into the details of what exactly that means, what with the humanistic insight and so on). Yet again, that's not something that the right wing populist parties directly questions.
A third cause could be direct governmental influence. We've seen this in many places throughout history. Soviet and China would be common examples. In the case of the EU the media and the government are fairly separate. That leaves only money and you're quite free to claim that the leftist movements are full of rich people and that we're commonly backed and funded by large corporations, because that would be so far from the truth that it'd be silly. In fact, not long ago it was revealed that this recent trend of right wing populist, conservative parties (like Front National, Tea Party, UKIP or the Swedish Democrats) do receive quite a bit of funding from, for instance, Russia. In this regard the media in particular might have reason for concerns, because these parties have no concern for media integrity or accuracy, and would happily put in stronger control mechanisms in our media scape. Censorships and whatnot.
So there's no systemic or pervasive social reason for media to be leftist (and their qualms with the right wing populists aren't as bad). There's every reason for media to be close to the centre (liberal, for the EU) and every now do something for the further left and right wings. Maybe you've got a reason for the media to be leftist, but I certainly can't think of one and, as an active leftist, I can't say that me nor my fellow leftists have ever felt that the media has been leftist and being part of the leftist, feminist, anti-racist PC elite that everyone loves to hate I can assure you that we do not have much media influence. Quite the opposite in fact.
If you want, I'd love to get into the media discourse analysis of the example of "some dumb skinheads attacking refugees camps" being over reported and sensationalised by the media in comparison to anything involving immigrants, as you're putting it, because that's simply not true and even if it was it would be quite motivated just by looking at statistics.
So my questions are:
Why would the media be leftist, when they've got several reasons to directly oppose left wing politics and discourse?
Do you want to get into the media discourse analysis and statistics regarding terrorism and hate crime in the context of right wingers and immigrants?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 07, 2016 08:32 PM |
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Ok that's quite a wall of text, so while I appreciate that you took the time to discuss, I will only explain my stance on a few things, as I lack time right now and not sure anyway to structure all that you wrote there. My problem is that I have obviously other roots, I was taught that every advantage you get, you have to fight to deserve it, and then you should not be given twice same chance. Or this can't be backed by the socialism, which is first caressing the mediocrity splendor, as it provides more voters and has a larger background to pick from. So let's go.
Shares said:
media entities to be leftist (unless you want to define "leftist" as anything that questions your beliefs)
yes, I mean Medias are socialist driven. I don't know other definition of left than Socialism, here were I live.
Quote:
As a result of this profit driven functionality they want to be popular, either to sell issues but especially to sell marketing power.
There is a difference between Sweden and France. In France the "extreme right wing" makes the highest score from all parties. So is more than close to win one day. And that day, all the medias which peddled lies and insults about its voters will have their public subvention cut. It's a good reason to continue the socialist logorrhea. The other reason is that socialism and right wing are now identical, there are no longer any fundamental differences as by the past. So I take a shortcut and I label them both as socialist, or the culture of the mediocrity, if you want.
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In fact, not long ago it was revealed that this recent trend of right wing populist, conservative parties (like Front National, Tea Party, UKIP or the Swedish Democrats) do receive quite a bit of funding from Russia
Stop here! I don't know where you got the idea that the Front National is funded by Russia. Totally false. This is what I usually call leftist propaganda 
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So there's no systemic or pervasive social reason for media to be leftist
I compare socialism, in his modern form, with a form of weakness. It is inherent to the European nature, a continent which ran its course. Our political elites have lost any track of patriotism, sovereignty, pride and independence. France is now a province of Europe, which is a sub-state of America. Medias and politics tells us how to react, and they label us as bad persons if we have dialectical views.
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If you want, I'd love to get into the media discourse analysis of the example of "some dumb skinheads attacking refugees camps" being over reported and sensationalised by the media in comparison to anything involving immigrants, as you're putting it, because that's simply not true and even if it was it would be quite motivated just by looking at statistics.
Well, I don't know about Sweden. All I can testify is about France. Or there were a bunch of new laws recently, which restrict our freedom of speech. We can't talk anymore about the Shoah, we can't talk anymore about ethnic statistics, we can't criticize anymore religions, we can't make jokes about races anymore, and such things. Or all those laws are defined by socialists, during their government, and backed my major medias, so what better argument can I give to you? What they do is anti constitutional. Freedom of speech is the thermometer of a nation. What they do is artificially push the mercury bar then claim there is no illness.
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So my questions are:
Why would the media be leftist, when they've got several reasons to directly oppose left wing politics and discourse?
Do you want to get into the media discourse analysis and statistics regarding terrorism and hate crime in the context of right wingers and immigrants?
Well, I already answered. I have a funny anecdote for you, as I subscribed recently at the Socialist party forum, because i wanted to have an intelligent discussion, without moderation or internet trolls. Or after posting my arguments, one of them asked me to name a single intellectual which backs the extreme right (there is this much spread idea that only dumb people vote extreme right).
Then, I gave a long list of well know intellectuals, modern philosophers, economists, historians, journalists, each of them sharing some of the extreme right ideas, be it on the Europe, on immigration, on the Iraq/Libya/Syria wars, on the free health care, and other details. The guy laughed and then told me those intellectuals I quoted are traitors to the country as they switched side and now are nazis. So it does not count, I still did not give a name.
This to say that once people got an idea in their head, this is very hard to change, and I include myself here. So while I am open for discussions (civilized, not like the one who yelled to me to get out of here), I still base my ideas on the observed reality. Facts and events only.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted January 07, 2016 08:54 PM |
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Shares said:
Why would the media to along with such a lock down? The media would be delighted to report scandals about any immigrants in Europe, at least currently. Especially Muslims/Arabs.
I'd like to add that people don't like to be wrong, and scandals don't win people's hearts.
After months upon months of refugee news, of the horrible travels, of the charitable acts of Frau Merkel, could you imagine a complete 180° turn just because there is a scandal?
And politicians that want to win the hearts won't question immigration, those that do are smeared by media, I dare you to find positive coverage in mainstream media of Salvini and Lega Nord (Using an Italian example since it's the one I know best).
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 07, 2016 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
There is a difference between Sweden and France. In France the "extreme right wing" makes the highest score from all parties. So is more than close to win one day. And that day, all the medias which peddled lies and insults about its voters will have their public subvention cut. It's a good reason to continue the socialist logorrhea. The other reason is that socialism and right wing are now identical, there are no longer any fundamental differences as by the past. So I take a shortcut and I label them both as socialist, or the culture of the mediocrity, if you want.
That's pretty much the case all over the western world. The populist right wing conservatives are gaining ground in most countries in the EU and the US is following suit (even if their electoral system doesn't make it as obvious). I'd be cautious to lump liberals and socialists together. They've got different explanatory models and slightly different value sets, and from there everything else stems. Front National has more in common with the political middle of Europe(liberals) than the far left does. Both in terms of discourse, explanatory model and value sets.
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Stop here! I don't know where you got the idea that the Front National is funded by Russia. Totally false. This is what I usually call leftist propaganda
It's known that Russia is directly funding several of that kind of party across Europe. I didn't mean to say that Front National is one of the funded parties, but it is part of the same group of parties. As far as Front National goes I only know that they've gotten loans from Russian banks and do have at least some contact with Russian government officials, but that's about it. I wouldn't know if Front National has received "free" money nor if their contacts are strong and cooperative, but that is the case for some of those parties. But saying that getting a loan from a Russian bank is constitutes "being funded by Putin" is exactly the kind of media sensationalism I'm talking about.
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I compare socialism, in his modern form, with a form of weakness. It is inherent to the European nature, a continent which ran its course. Our political elites have lost any track of patriotism, sovereignty, pride and independence. France is now a province of Europe, which is a sub-state of America. Medias and politics tells us how to react, and they label us as bad persons if we have dialectical views.
That the EU has had some pretty bad effects on many European countries and that it's a roundabout way of creating an empire without a people is something I can agree with. And I also have quite the distrust for both politicians and the media... But inherent to the European nature? How so?
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Well, I already answered.[Why the media would be socialist]
I must've missed that, unless that's included as being inherent to the European nature?
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 07, 2016 09:24 PM |
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Neraus said:
I'd like to add that people don't like to be wrong, and scandals don't win people's hearts.
After months upon months of refugee news, of the horrible travels, of the charitable acts of Frau Merkel, could you imagine a complete 180° turn just because there is a scandal?
And politicians that want to win the hearts won't question immigration, those that do are smeared by media, I dare you to find positive coverage in mainstream media of Salvini and Lega Nord (Using an Italian example since it's the one I know best).
But it wouldn't be a 180 to report about immigrants doing stupid snow. It wouldn't even be much of a controversy, because that's the current trend. Anything negative about immigration is pretty much the trend in Europe, currently. Not to mention that the media loves to do 180s if it can get away with it. Especially if we look at media as a whole, and not just at a given media entity. Two major news outlets reporting contradicting information about a given topic is great for both of them.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 07, 2016 09:50 PM |
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Shares, the simple fact that you think a right wing party is financed by another nation is the proof that all the media you read is leftist. This would be a major reason for imploding, can you just imagine the effect if, let's say, we could find that Trump is financed by Putin?
If you can't find in any Swedish media the truth about Front national and his loans from Russia, then it means all the medias are lying you.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 07, 2016 10:00 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 22:00, 07 Jan 2016.
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Salamandre said:
Shares, the simple fact that you think a right wing party is financed by another nation is the proof that all the media you read is leftist. This would be a major reason for imploding, can you just imagine the effect if, let's say, we could find that Trump is financed by Putin?
If you can't find in any Swedish media the truth about Front national and his loans from Russia, then it means all the medias are lying you.
"Russian bank loan
In November 2014, Marine Le Pen confirmed a €9 million loan from the First Czech Russian Bank (FCRB) in Moscow to the National Front.[196] Senior FN officials from the party's political bureau informed Mediapart that this was the first installment of a €40 million loan, although Ms Le Pen has disputed this. [188][196] The Independent said the loans "take Moscow's attempt to influence the internal politics of the EU to a new level."[188] Reinhard Bütikofer stated, "It's remarkable that a political party from the motherland of freedom can be funded by Putin's sphere - the largest European enemy of freedom."[197] Marine Le Pen argued that it was not a donation from the Russian government but a loan from a private Russian bank because no other bank would give her a loan. This loan is meant to prepare future electoral campaigns and to be repaid progressively. Marine Le Pen has publicly disclosed all the rejection letters that French banks have sent to her concerning her loan requests.[198] Since November 2014, she insists that if a French bank agrees to give her a loan, she would break her contract with the FCBR, but she has not received any other counter-propositions.[199][200] Le Pen accused the banks of collusion with the current government[198] In April 2015, a Russian hacker group published texts and emails between Timur Prokopenko, a member of Putin's administration, and Konstantin Rykov, a former Duma deputy with ties to France, discussing Russian financial support to the National Front in exchange for its support of Russia's annexation of Crimea.[201]"
Just straight from Wikipedia. Plenty of sources there. And what do you know, there was even more cooperation than I had already confirmed.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 07, 2016 10:43 PM |
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So?
The text is clear. Marine le Pen showed proofs that ALL french banks refused the loan (and no one wonders why they refused?). Then she borrowed money from a russian bank -and btw, all those homilies about open Europe and cooperation are nice then when an international loan is given, is a scandal?
The fact that hackers find some emails between Igor and Ivan is saying nothing about a french party being financed by Russia. There are zero documents about some cooperation between Le Pen and some russian oligarch. Nice attempt but the truth is more solid than you think.
Shares said:
Reinhard Bütikofer stated, "It's remarkable that a political party from the motherland of freedom can be funded by Putin's sphere - the largest European enemy of freedom."
And what does a statement made by a german leftist, statement reflecting only his subjective opinion, on Wikipedia? Ehm...no comment.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 07, 2016 10:56 PM |
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You're being unnecessarily aggressive. I said that what I knew was that Front National had gotten loans from a Russian bank and that they had some contact with Russian officials, both which has been confirmed. I also said that then saying "Front National is funded by Putin" would just be sensationalism. And then I said that other parties similar to Front National has gotten more direct support from Russian officials.
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