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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Morality of cheating a casino
Thread: Morality of cheating a casino
friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


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able to speed up time
posted September 08, 2012 10:32 AM
Edited by Corribus at 22:21, 16 Jun 2013.

Morality of cheating a casino

There's several movies and books out there that tell the stories of people that have successfully cheated casinos.  I'm not talking about the movie with the blackjack card counting - it would be hard to find somebody that thinks that is immoral.  I'm talking about movies like Ocean's eleven where the protagonists take a casino for millions of dollars.  There was no violence in that movie, you could view the entire thing as trickery.

There's also a long history of schemes where players will connive with dealers to cheat the casino, or hack the electronics in slot machines, or even study dice rolling so much that they can win at craps whenever they want.  The law will surely punish them, but that's not the question.  The question is if you think it's immoral.

At this point in time I'm having a hard time seeing immorality in it.  Anybody care to take a contrarion view?

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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


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First in line
posted September 08, 2012 10:40 AM

Read this novel click. Its the best that can be said about casinos.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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Scourge of God
posted September 08, 2012 10:53 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 10:54, 08 Sep 2012.

I consider casinos and slot machines to be nothing more than lawful theft, but one ill turn does not condone another.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 08, 2012 06:05 PM

Quote:
The question is if you think it's immoral.

Yes, its immoral.
The reasoning is simple, people have a clear choice of not playing casino games. If you play someones game where your odds at winning are low, its your fault. Trying to cheat makes the whole thing even dumber because you agreed on the game rules(No cheating). In otherwords, cheating in this case equals fraud, like a business contract.

For most of us, gambling is one of the few things in life that is bad and we can avoid completely.

Trying to cheat just tresspasses the "Agreement" you made when you entered the casino. Its not a matter of how moral your action is, its a matter of how rational it is and cheating is neither moral or rational in this case,

Gambling is only for people who consider money nothing but paper to throw away, rich people for example dont have a problem with spending 75k for a game.


Quote:

At this point in time I'm having a hard time seeing immorality in it.  Anybody care to take a contrarion view?

Quite weird to feel that way.
Just because the guys in the casino say "here is a game where the odds of winning are one in a billion,come play!" does not mean that cheating in that game is not immoral.
Gamling is bad business and if you cheat, you are a criminal.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted September 08, 2012 07:00 PM

Casinos are institutionalized thievery so it's more like stealing from a thief. The question is not whether that is moral but whether one cares.
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Corribus
Corribus

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The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted September 09, 2012 12:20 AM

I don't see how a casino is anything resembling thievery.  Nobody forces people to spend money there.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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posted September 09, 2012 01:21 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 04:02, 09 Sep 2012.

Cheating at any group game means that you're destroying the already poor chances of all the other participating patrons. Even if you make the leap of saying that because you believe casinos are a destructive form of entertainment, and therefore breaking the rules is justified, you still need to answer to the fact that you're making it even worse for other patrons at the expense of your own gain, which would reserve you to cheating only at individual games.

Of course as has been said already; nobody is riding up to you on a chariot, throwing a net around you, and dragging you inside the casino, where you are then put into shackles and forced up to the table where you must spend your money or face the lions in the arena. The odds are stacked against the spender, but that's common knowledge and people know that when they walk through the door. It's also worth pointing out the psychological thrill of the casino: the fact that the odds are against them is precisely what makes it fun for so many people. That and the fact that if the odds were in the user's favor, casinos would be an inherently unsustainable business enterprise.
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Thunder_Titus
Thunder_Titus


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posted September 09, 2012 02:29 AM

live is very dangerous so watch out
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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


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able to speed up time
posted September 09, 2012 09:40 AM

@Seraphim
You make a convincing argument that the immorality stems from the breaking of the 'agreement' that you enter into when you enter the casino.   I'm not entirely convinced however the breaking of an agreement in this circumstance would be immoral.  BTW I'm not denying that legally it's a crime, I'm only probing its morality.

I, as well as many people in this thread, hold a low opinion of gambling establishments.  They are organizations that will happily take an entire person's life savings without any compunction whatsoever.  To my eyes the thing they offer doesn't resemble a product or service.  In fact to me it resembles more of a parasitic apparatus, where they draw money from genetically susceptible individuals.  If I met a person that cheated a casino through sheer cleverness I would probably offer them my congratulations.  Nor would I be tempted to notify the authorities as I would with pretty much any other crime.


BlizzardBoy
Quote:
Cheating at any group game means that you're destroying the already poor chances of all the other participating patrons.


I should have put in an additional disclaimer that omitted poker.  I'm strictly referring to cheating the casino itself.  As far as I know besides poker a win for you does not lessen the chances of a win for somebody else.



So here's a set of three questions for Seraphim, Tsar-Ivor, or anybody else that considered it immoral.

1.  Would you cheat a casino if you knew that you wouldn't get caught?  Let's make a hypothetical scenario for example where you meet a person on a train and he tells you that he made the computer chips that are used in slot machines.  He then tells you about a timing sequence that you can use to hit the $25,000 jackpot.  He'll give you the sequence if you give him a third of the money.  The reason he's telling you, a complete stranger, about it is because if he co-opted any of his friends or acquaintances it might lead back to him.

2.  That scenario is still rooted in the real world however, which means there is still a remote chance of getting caught.  So move the question into the purely hypothetical plane and then answer it.  Would you cheat a casino if there was absolutely no way that you would be caught?

3.  In the beginning post I mentioned the guy who learned how to game the craps table .  That was a true story.  A guy bought a craps table, put it in his garage, and then spent every day for six months learning how to roll dice (at a specific location at the craps table) so that they could come  up the way he wanted.  Would you consider that immoral?

@Vokial
Thanks for the suggestion

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Zenofex
Zenofex


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posted September 09, 2012 12:29 PM

Casinos and their similar establishments benefit from the human stupidity/stubbornness combo like many other but the difference is that in their case the participants will lose nothing if they don't participate. The fact that the casinos "help" the gamblers lose much more often than they win changes little - it's entirely up to the individual to risk his/her money for an extremely low chance to win more than he/she bets, especially given that he/she's aware of the chances. I.e. if you're dumb, the problem is yours and will likely manifest itself not only when you gamble.
To the questions:
Quote:
1.  Would you cheat a casino if you knew that you wouldn't get caught?
I wouldn't enter one in the first place.
Quote:
Would you cheat a casino if there was absolutely no way that you would be caught?
Same as above.
Quote:
In the beginning post I mentioned the guy who learned how to game the craps table .  That was a true story.  A guy bought a craps table, put it in his garage, and then spent every day for six months learning how to roll dice (at a specific location at the craps table) so that they could come  up the way he wanted.  Would you consider that immoral?
No. The casino is using similar mechanism to lower his chances, he's just... evening the odds. Can't see anything wrong with that, except maybe the wasted time.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted September 09, 2012 12:50 PM

FriendOfGunnar:
1. Cheat the profitable? Yes
2. If I can't get caught? Still yes
3. Getting enough skill to remove random chance? Thats not cheating, and yes I would, if it garantes me reasonable amounts of cash.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 09, 2012 03:02 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 15:05, 09 Sep 2012.

Quote:
I'm not entirely convinced however the breaking of an agreement in this circumstance would be immoral.


Depends how you look at it. Evening the odds is the right thing to do in such cases but the way how its done is questionable.
Thats because you accepted a contract. Its like business, once you accept it, you have to go with it. If you dont want to go, cancel it if its possible. Same here.




Quote:
They are organizations that will happily take an entire person's life savings without any compunction whatsoever.


I think you are being a bit naive here. Any organization that you would owe money, would happily take all your belongings if you could not pay. It depends on the contract and the country but its generaly the same everywhere..."Cough" "Cough"  Banks.


Quote:

To my eyes the thing they offer doesn't resemble a product or service.

I guess you are one of those types that consider joy nothing of value.
People who go into casinos enjoy the games, the people etc. If its a bad deal its their problem.  They lose all that money for the little "thrill".

Quote:

In fact to me it resembles more of a parasitic apparatus, where they draw money from genetically susceptible individuals.


You are aware that our society is built on that?
Those who have money survive.
In our free market world, there are a "lot" of bad deals. Say, if you get dumbfounded that you bought a soda for 2Ä instead of 1Ä, would you call markets parasitic appartus?






Quote:

1.  Would you cheat a casino if you knew that you wouldn't get caught?  


It really depends. In real world, I would never go for it because of the risk and the fact that I hate casinos.
Winning a casino game,if its 100% certain, is a good deal. Hypothetically, I would go for it, but just once.

Quote:

2.  That scenario is still rooted in the real world however, which means there is still a remote chance of getting caught.  


Short answer, no.


Quote:

3.  In the beginning post I mentioned the guy who learned how to game the craps table .  That was a true story.  A guy bought a craps table, put it in his garage, and then spent every day for six months learning how to roll dice (at a specific location at the craps table) so that they could come  up the way he wanted.  Would you consider that immoral?



Short answer, no. Even though that would increase your chances, that would not make it cheating because you are not using anything special to achieve that.


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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Undefeatable Hero
posted April 13, 2018 09:38 PM

blizzardboy said:
Cheating at any group game means that you're destroying the already poor chances of all the other participating patrons. Even if you make the leap of saying that because you believe casinos are a destructive form of entertainment, and therefore breaking the rules is justified, you still need to answer to the fact that you're making it even worse for other patrons at the expense of your own gain, which would reserve you to cheating only at individual games.

Of course as has been said already; nobody is riding up to you on a chariot, throwing a net around you, and dragging you inside the casino, where you are then put into shackles and forced up to the table where you must spend your money or face the lions in the arena. The odds are stacked against the spender, but that's common knowledge and people know that when they walk through the door. It's also worth pointing out the psychological thrill of the casino: the fact that the odds are against them is precisely what makes it fun for so many people. That and the fact that if the odds were in the user's favor, casinos would be an inherently unsustainable business enterprise.




Damn. This answer from 2012 is totally kick ass. I must have been eating a lot of toxic chalk that week.
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Rise
Rise

Tavern Dweller
posted June 01, 2018 06:57 PM
Edited by Rise at 18:58, 01 Jun 2018.

Very difficult topic. I think there is no right answer.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


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Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted June 23, 2019 08:47 PM

Tsar-Ivor said:
I consider casinos and slot machines to be nothing more than lawful theft, but one ill turn does not condone another.


Yaaay, I made a semi-intelligent comment! Thank god!


I believe I meant that while casinos are there to rake in your dough, stealing from them is still theft, do not dress up your crime, I know some form of justification is required, something to sell yourself to keep your integrity and morality in check. But tough titties trying to feed that to anyone with even a semblence of intelligence.

Though I'm an avid fan of Robin Hood, so I am porbably just talkin out meh ass.
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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


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Thread Destroyer
posted June 27, 2019 01:30 AM

OhforfSake said:
Oddball13579 said:
This thread is beginning to look like a place where bots flock to to advertise.


Nonsense!

Now go out and buy my bun bun's! This is a link.
What are bun bun's? Lol. The fake link is great
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Gnomes2169
Gnomes2169


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Duke of the Glade
posted June 27, 2019 07:09 AM

All of the casino threads are getting hit by these spam bots for whatever reason, including the one in the Colosseum for some reason.

And as for this thread... I work at a casino as a blackjack dealer. I'd rather not get fired because someone straight-up cheated at my table, and I'd rather not have to file a report on someone who came to my table, cheated and got caught. Something that wasn't brought up much was that the storefront employees (dealers, slot techs, cashiers, waitresses, etc) really don't see profit from the business doing well, but they are punished if someone breaks the rules around them, and that's definitely a big point in stealing/ cheating a casino being amoral.

But hey... I'm prooooobably biased here.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 27, 2019 03:34 PM

How the snow do you get punished for someone else breaking the law?
That makes absolutely no sense at all. You have a duty to report them to the management of course but how does that turn into punishing you for their crimes? That just seems like something you ought to look up with a lawbook because that canít be legal.

As for on topic, casinos being legal enterprises means you are stealing from a legit business. There is no moral dilemma.

In cases where they are illegal casinos, stealing from a criminal is still stealing and you are going to get jailed for that. Again, there is no moral dilemma here.

Also this whole misconception that casinos are stealing or cheating someone out of their money is wrong. It is an entertainment business to make money. They sell thrills and excitement in exchange for money, they donít sell wins. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that seems to be pretty widespread regarding gambling.
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 27, 2019 04:08 PM

I guess it would be pretty dumb and boring to pray to the goddess of luck all the time and practically losing all the time for almost 100% of the players. Certainly, there would be some kind of mass protests against the goddess of luck that would end with total devastation of her temples.
I suppose eventually she would evolve into a cyber goddess of cyber luck and would specialize only for slot machines, and other half-AI apparatuses, giving all other analog machines to another luck deity, perhaps a male one.
Eventually, people would understand that slot machines are a replacement for bow and arrow hunting, thusly rendering luck deity into more skimpier clothes and more connected with hunt deity. Of course, slot machines will eventually be replaced with hunting simulators with jackpot corresponding with " arrow in the hart" and small jackpot with "arrow in the knee".

I suppose under monotheism things are more contextual. There are no direct interactions with deities so they're not in primary focus, there's no connection between form and the meaning so things are more technical, much more mechanical repetition is involved, the user is actively involved in the creation of its own illusion, it's like a private ceremony where user fulfills all necessary rolls.

So, is it morally correct to pretend that you're in the middle of making complex and interactive self-illusion on yourself with yourself in order to do something that's probably marked as illegal and illegitimate by the establishment that provides facilities for that type of ceremonies?

Well, if you live in a state that most of the important problems resolve through direct democracy, then you would have the legitimacy to make a proposal to make casino cheating legally and morally correct. However, facilitators of buildings where self-illusion ceremonies are taking place could argue that would create confusion because the name "casino" suggests that it's the place for true believers in self-illusion ceremonies, where cheating and misusing self-illusionary processes is immoral and illegal.
So they would probably have to build another building with Anticasino inscription.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 27, 2019 09:55 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 21:56, 27 Jun 2019.

Gnomes2169 said:
Something that wasn't brought up much was that the storefront employees (dealers, slot techs, cashiers, waitresses, etc) really don't see profit from the business doing well, but they are punished if someone breaks the rules around them, and that's definitely a big point in stealing/ cheating a casino being amoral.
That's really gross when you think about how much money a casino actually rakes in daily.

JoonasTo said:
How the snow do you get punished for someone else breaking the law? That makes absolutely no sense at all. You have a duty to report them to the management of course but how does that turn into punishing you for their crimes?
Because that's what all people in positions in power do. Never take responsibility. Here's a for instance, not exactly the same thing but pretty close. My manager always jobs their job on me. Meaning that I am doing the things that the manager should actually be doing, while the manager pisses off and does f all. So I get punished if I don't finish either the snow the manager gave me or my own tasks. Even though the manager isn't doing his own f-ing job.

Anyone is a position of power treats the people under them like absolute snow. Because we are just numbers to them. Easily replaced. The management at a casino blames it on the workers because they need someone to blame. It's just what people in power do.

JoonasTo said:

Also this whole misconception that casinos are stealing or cheating someone out of their money is wrong. It is an entertainment business to make money. They sell thrills and excitement in exchange for money, they donít sell wins. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that seems to be pretty widespread regarding gambling.
Technically you are right, yes. However there is nothing stopping the casino from "weighting" the games. This is obviously seen more on the machines. The programs and math within the machines are designed to take more money then they are to give it out. Table games are more skilled based because they are run by a human.  
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