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| Thread: Things that H6 did right |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 25, 2012 11:12 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 23:17, 25 Sep 2012.
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I rather liked the twist in H3 where angels are mysterious guardians (AI?) sent to combat
the presence of the alien Kreegans (alien to Enroth in any case).
The kreegans may have undergone changes from the Role-playing games
in order to solidify the fire-and-brimstone theme,
but that was nescessary in order to make it suit the mythology-based world,
and turn it into something most people are familiar with.
Christianity, like most old religions, has produced it's share of fantastic creatures.
I find it odd that they opt to 'de-christianize' the inferno faction, if that is their reason,
when you'd think that killing angels (archangels no less) could be perceived as being more offensive than killing devils.
But I guess it all comes down to the setting,
the angels of the HoMM games aren't actually angels in a Judeo-Christian sense.
Such an irony then, that the games set in Ashan tend to focus overly on religion and religious aspects compared to the old games,
the biggest offenders being the Haven and Necropolis factions.
Granted, it's a made-up religion for a video game, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.
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What I miss the most from the old games is the facial expressions on the units in H2.
I guess you'd come across the uncanny valley if you tried to do the same
in 3D graphics, but everyone in this game look so drab and lifeless,
which is strange considering that the units are well-animated otherwise. The sounds they make also leave something to be desired...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 25, 2012 11:26 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:46, 25 Sep 2012.
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Oh come on, Heroes VI lore is better only compared to Heroes V - which on the other hand inhabits the deepest depths of the underworld so this is hardly any achievement. When you have a pile of total crap as a base, you have to be exceptionally talented to do worse - but it doesn't really take much skill to do, say, slightly better. So no, the lore is not an achievement - the narrating is bad and clichéd, the story leaves much to be desired, none of the characters will take roots in your memory and some of them are just damn annoying (Irina, Goink, etc.). Even Ubisoft indirectly admit that their universe sucks by smuggling the heroes from the M&M games prior to Heroes V so someone can buy their otherwise worthless DLCs (you want one with another of Raelag's love stories, right? Right? Riiiight...).
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The kreegans may have undergone changes from the Role-playing games
in order to solidify the fire-and-brimstone theme,
but that was nescessary in order to make it suit the mythology-based world,
and turn it into something most people are familiar with.
The Inferno faction in Heroes III is only partially composed of Kreegans - the Imps, the Gogs, the Hell Hounds and the Efreeti are certainly not Kreegans and from the rest only the Devils are 100% certain Kreegans. So the town theme is... well, Enrothian in a sense (+ Fire Plane). It lacks a space ship or a Colony Zod-like "structure" but they wouldn't really fit with the rest of the town dwellings.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 25, 2012 11:41 PM |
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Quote:
Oh come on, Heroes VI lore is better only compared to Heroes V - which on the other hand inhabits the deepest depths of the underworld so this is hardly any achievement. When you have a pile of total crap as a base, you have to be exceptionally talented to do worse - but it doesn't really take much skill to do, say, slightly better. So no, the lore is not an achievement - the narrating is bad and clichéd, the story leaves much to be desired, none of the characters will take roots in your memory and some of them are just damn annoying (Irina, Goink, etc.). Even Ubisoft indirectly admit that their universe sucks by smuggling the heroes from the M&M games prior to Heroes V so someone can buy their otherwise worthless DLCs (you want one with another of Raelag's love stories, right? Right? Riiiight...).
The way you put it, 3DO admited that the whole Heroes I and II succed when they basicaly copied 90% of the heroes presented in them (We all know that heroes Like Sandro, Kilindra or lets say Crag are not original characters form Enroth universe).
Might and Magic has a big tradition in crosovers when it comes to different planets of it's setting. It's just like somebody would ask himself. "Great we have a new world. now lets see how our old frainds would do in it."
Also you mix two things up. "Lore" and "Story". Lore is the background, the history and the feel of the particular faction. Like naga. How they and their sociaty works, who is their king, what characteristics have value for them.
And then there is the Story. Which is focused on a character, and narated to the player. These things have nothing to do with each other. The character of Irina or Sandor don't tell you anything about how Orc's or Naga are.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 25, 2012 11:54 PM |
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I don't mix them - lore in a game's sense is everything from the backstory to the "current day" dialogues of the characters which form up the story in motion. In both cases Heroes VI is nothing to be praised - a mediocre result at best and if we take into account all the pre-release claims that this time it will be much better, it's even a failure.
As for what NWC did - well, they created these characters and made them what they are, didn't they? Try to imagine what will happen if Isabel appears in one more M&M game. And really, when you say Crag Hack, do you think Crag Hack from Terra or "Mr. Hack" from Heroes III?
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 26, 2012 12:07 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 00:19, 26 Sep 2012.
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JollyJoker said:
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That reads like you missed the point, and somewhat completely.
So what we are basically talking about is the decision to make what is actually Vampiric Touch a lowest level spell instead of a high level one and aditionally give it the capacity to work over a distance (which is what the greek "tele" means, as in tele-vision).
Also, the point, "hey, it's magic, they can do everything", is definitely NOT valid, because if there isn't at least a world-inherent logic, the world ceases to be immersive: you can't just do everthing you like or find useful and necessary without any rhyme or reason, because if you could you wouldn't need a "world" or a "story" in the first place.
No I didn't miss the point. You seem to have a concept for what Draining Life is and that's good. But let me tell you a concept, which may sound stupid for some (but hey it's fantasy!), which I devised just now as an example to show you what I mean. What if the units of H6 don't die in battle, but instead are seriously wounded to the point that they will die after the battle, if something is not done for them (you could say they are KO'ed in a way). So by using the dark arts other units suck up (not in a vampiric way, in a magical way) the life force of enemies and magically channel it to heal those wounded comrades, bringing them back to the fight. And as such no necromancy is needed right? I mean, they are fatally wounded, but not dead. And although it's logical to connect Dark Magic with Necropolis faction, I don't think it was meant for this faction only. For instance the summon Darkness Elemental spell. Elementals are not undead units. They are magical/astral/artificial (you name it) units not connected with necromancy. No, the Dark School is not limited to necromancers only imho, and that's what I think the devs have done on purpose. It's a bit different from H4 for instance, where many spells damaged only living units not undead so dark magic was naturally connected with the undead...
And back to the game mechanics. You don't like the fact that Life Drain is a low-tier spell. But personally I don't find low-tier placing of healing spells wrong. When I play Heroes, in battle I always make the choice between damaging spells to destroy my enemies as fast as I can (the longer the fight the bigger the losses via enemy damaging spells etc), or prolonging the life of my units with healing and buffs. You can always find a bridge between those two strategies but usually you don't have enough turns or mana to do so (of course it's much more complex then that but you get my point). Keeping as much units alive as possible, for instance, is crucial when fighting the cheating AI (which always has 2 or 3 times more units then you) because when your low on mana it's only how much hits your units can take that matters. I can tell that when fighting skillful players or overwhelming AI forces Heroes is all about saving as much units as possible, of course assuming you dont't have 10 times more cities then your enemy  So I don't think the devs made a wrong decision because with spells like LD they give you a possibility to initiate those unit-saving strategies from the beginning. With Life Drain you can start saving your units right off the bat 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2012 02:53 AM |
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Quote:
What if the units of H6 don't die in battle, but instead are seriously wounded to the point that they will die after the battle, if something is not done for them (you could say they are KO'ed in a way).
that seems very likely
do you mean they are pokemons?
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted September 26, 2012 03:16 AM |
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Quote:
I don't mix them - lore in a game's sense is everything from the backstory to the "current day" dialogues of the characters which form up the story in motion. In both cases Heroes VI is nothing to be praised - a mediocre result at best and if we take into account all the pre-release claims that this time it will be much better, it's even a failure.
As for what NWC did - well, they created these characters and made them what they are, didn't they? Try to imagine what will happen if Isabel appears in one more M&M game. And really, when you say Crag Hack, do you think Crag Hack from Terra or "Mr. Hack" from Heroes III?
If you want to play on words, fine. I retract the word "lore" (no I won't edit it), and instead propose backstory, or better yet world building. If you read what I wrote, I never once talked about the story, the characters, or anything like that. I talked about how the factions were designed, built, what their identity was (or seemed to be). And then again, I just talked about what changed. I didn't even draw the whole picture. That wall of text was enough I think, probably no one would read a larger text that would actually describe the factions and not just see what changes were made.
Now then you talk about H3 a lot here. Comprehensible, that's the "golden age" of HoMM as it were. I even voted for it in the poll. And when you say its story was 10 times better? I agree. I'm on board with that.
Now let's compare them on what I was actually talking about with H6, alright? H3 castle, inferno, necropolis. That'll also be from memory, which may or may not be even worse than for H6. Do feel free to correct me.
Castle first then, why not? The town is very human-based. Probably has the lineup that is the most centered on what its race actually is, 5/7 are actually humans (few towns compare, though amusingly enough, those that do are the other 2 I'll talk about). Pikemen, crossbowmen, crusaders, monks, knights. Medieval, all of them. Very much so, in fact. The actual social standings of each is also kept somewhat intact, with the pikemen/crossbowmen being somewhat interchangeable. They can all be found in one way or another in IRL medieval, even fighting monks, though fighting monks don't fight with hadukens IRL. Then throw in a little mythology, because why not? Griffins, they are noble, and more importantly the namesake of the king/queen. And then angels, whom yes aren't true to the actual christian angels, but still finish grounding the faction into the classical medieval christian faction (if crusaders and monks weren't enough). Classical medieval christian faction. That's all I get from it.
Inferno is amusing. They are aliens. Even then, they manage to confirm very well to a christian vision of devils and hell. The devils themselves are an obvious example. Demons are also very caracteristic. Gog and Magog are the biblic creatures that guard the doors to hell. Same with the hellhound I believe, except it's not biblic of course, and it's not exactly Hell either. Efreeti are the demons of another culture than christian as well, I suppose that is to relieve the heavy christian influence. Pit lords are rather ordinary. Red men with horns and a whip. Overall? Hell, and different incarnations of various demons, mostly christian based. With the amusing twist that they are aliens  . Really though, that fact doesn't change anything to its design.
Necropolis then. A very boring vampire jumps to mind. Probably because I fell in love with the Ubisoft design for the thing. Other than that, the whole thing is very standard. Even its heroes, which is the place where I gripe the most. They're evil, period. They do that because... they're evil. They want the world. They're having a trip. They're bad people. Name it, it doesn't matter. They're evil - period. There isn't even a solid explanation for it. I mean, with the devils, you could argue it's aliens trying to exterminate the local populace to get the planet, at the worst case anyways. Not even that with the undead. They're just bad people because they are. Or rather, because necromancy itself is evil. That's age old in terms of belief (if you believe in necromancy, at any rate).
One thing I take from all this : very ordinary. No creativity. They took things from the real world (mostly mythological, with the one exception of the humans), and then had them interact with each other to some extent. That last part, the story, is interesting. The setting in which it takes place is just meh. Nothing new. Nothing special.
By contrast, the H6 approach to faction design inspires itself from IRL (mythology or not). It doesn't rip it out of there to put it in their own "world" (in H3, world creation was probably mostly drawing a map and distributing the IRL mythology things all over it). They take it, then adapt it to the world they created. Note that here, creating a world implies more than just a map. There's a bit of backstory involved. There's cults, also. Beliefs. Whether you like it or not, religion was very central to society in medieval times (the overall setting of the world). The fate weavers are an amazing example of this adaptation. They took the actual fate weavers and adapted them to the necromancer philosophy, in a brilliant way I might add. Same with their concept of the vampires. The demons are actually rather interesting on that count as well. Mazochistry and proliferation are not traditionnal demon themes. See H3 for traditional demon themes.
The humans, you'll say, do not innovate much from their inspiration. Kinda true. But I find them the most interesting when contrasted with the H5 Haven. Let's do the evolution thing, but backwards, because H5 is the future of H6, lore-wise. How have things evolved? The empire is in a clear crisis, that's how. They're down to bringing peasants, for God's sake! But mostly, there is a certain feel of decadence to it. Part of it is connected to a sense (or a reality) of having lost the purity, the glory, the holiness of ages past. Glories have disappeared. Knights are reduced to simply being good horse warriors with weakling light powers (while previously, they were so valorous, so attuned to the purity of the light, that they could become light). Griffins are still there, but they are a very worldly creature, without any connection to the divine (or at least, not the divine they're searching for). The angels are also still present, but much more distant, less inclined to involve themselves in the affairs of men. Perhaps they got burned too strong the last time they did (and went too far - refering to H6). Or perhaps, to the average joe, humans simply aren't worthy anymore. Through the crisis, the priests have a higher standing in society. Perhaps a small effort to try and recover the lost grace? Who knows. One thing is for sure, this apparent decadence makes the Empire ripe to be invaded...
To conclude, yes, storytelling is rather poor. But if they actually get it together, they've got a fantastic world to set it in.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 26, 2012 07:34 AM |
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/trollon
Things that H6 did right:
End of thread!
/trolloff
Seriously, though, the list of things that I think H6 did right, as in better than the previous games, comes out very short. I do think that the adventure map graphics is far better than any previous game, and I do think the Hero class approach (might, magic, tears, blood) is the best of the series, even if the latter needs tuning to really shine. The new creature tier idea may not be bad either, even though again I feel the implementation leaves some things to be desired. And I like the general style of the Santurary faction (minus the Spring Spirit / Water Elemental duality).
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What will happen now?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 26, 2012 08:12 AM |
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Quote:
I don't mix them - lore in a game's sense is everything from the backstory to the "current day" dialogues of the characters which form up the story in motion. In both cases Heroes VI is nothing to be praised - a mediocre result at best and if we take into account all the pre-release claims that this time it will be much better, it's even a failure.
As for what NWC did - well, they created these characters and made them what they are, didn't they? Try to imagine what will happen if Isabel appears in one more M&M game. And really, when you say Crag Hack, do you think Crag Hack from Terra or "Mr. Hack" from Heroes III?
Sorry for discussing this topic here but...
I disagree with you on the use of the term Lore. Lore is lore, the knowledge of the world. And a story is the story put into this knowledge. Lore influence what the characters can do, but the character's presentation in the story can never change the outcome. The outcome of the story creates more lore but the character and the way the story is written does not have to do anything with the lore.
Example: Lore fact woudl be (Heroes V one), that Findan brought back dragons to Irollan, save d the capitol and helped cure the tainted queen. That's the lore result of his story. But his story is something else. It's a mix of bad naration, poems that give you nightmares and a hero who does exactly what everybody tells him to do, even his enemies.
The story itself is bad, but even if it was well mad, the outcome would not change, ergo the outcome of any canonical story forms the lore but the character and the form of the story does not influence the lore, even more, the characters and the basic setting must be in coherenc with the lore from older parts.
Example on this one. When they used characters from heroes V in Clash of heroes, thay had to hold to some facts from it, A litle deviation is OK, but if they lets say saied that Fiona was not Godrics sister but lover, that would change a lot.
Also I understand people who like heroes III more then other games in the franchise, I myself would never tell anything bad about Heroes II. But When you want to compare the "lore" and not the "Story" 3D0's game never gave such a deep insight into the world. And even more. The only game that gave you insight when it comes to background was Might and Magic VI. MaM VII reduced this source of information and VII had almost none. For example. What can yyou tell me about Darkmoor, or Deya? You can tell me where they are, and who lives there, You can even tell me their capitols/major setelments, but can you tell me something about their history? When and why have they been created? Have there been any wars befor the event that the games follow? Etc.
The opinion if a stroy is good or bad is sibjective. You can say Heroes V story was bad, and many people would agree, some might not. I could say that the Heroes III story was not actually that much better, and that the only thing that saves it from critics is time, and you can disagree.
But the the quality of Lore is based on informations providded in and around these games. And when it comes to the number and depth of information Ashan hase gave us sofar more, then the Enroth games.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2012 08:12 AM |
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Part of the problem with life drain is that it is so readily available to anyone from the very first day. If we had guilds and it was a lvl 2 spell I doubt things would have been that bad, especially if there was a chance to not get it - or any other healing for that matter. Or say a death ripple that damages living and has a minor health replenishing for the undead. As long as the healing is minor and you have to invest in a magic guild which will undoubtedly get in the way of building more units, that would be a decent solution.
And I don't really like the game divided in 3 tiers only - which extends from heroes, to spells, to units - but that is easily corrected.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2012 08:53 AM |
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Since this is a thread that deals with the things VI did right, here are some:
1) Areas and Area control.
Why? Because there is a lot more to it than allowing (it's not necessarily so that the control of an area ist tied to a fortress or something) to tie the control over the riches of an area to the control of a "Fortress" that is, a central defense post, which makes the annoying fast raider hero who tauntingly steals mines, obsolete (later on, however, when you can hire heroes with a couple of levels you could build a hero for that purpose, giving him logictics and mine skills; however, due to the fact that there are only a few mines, that's wasted).
It also allows to limit the effects of town buildings and hero abilities to a certain part of the map only which opens up a lot of new possibilities.
2) Conversion.
It's not necessary to discuss that, because there is something missing in VI that would make it a really good feature: a check box in the game setup to toggle it on/off. Still, with random town picking options now enabled, this seems to be a good thing to have, when playing those. Some complain it would take out complexity - but with a way to toggle it on/off it would simply be a useful game option.
3) Creature pool.
Yeah, I read everything about it. Dumbs down the game... Bollocks. It's just making things so much faster. Also I welcome the demise of Caravans who tended to choke narrow passages. If I wanted to play a logistics game, I'd play Railroad Tycoon or something like that. Sure, you won't conquer a town day 1 with full production in it anymore - but on the other hand there is no unfair advantage for going first anymore either.
Also - once the units are BOUGHT, they are committed. The main advantages of the creature pool are:
a) Outside creature dwellings simply add to the general creature production - no Caravans shipping them back and forth like in HoMM V or Heroes visiting them as part of a weekly routine.
b) An easy way to manage your empire defenses; as long as your troops are not committed (bought) and you have the same buildings in all your towns, you can easily manage your defenses, without having to install a complex hero picket to ... actually allow the same thing exploiting the fact that creatures don't have their own movement allowance.
It's still not a no-brainer, though, but here it doesn't depend on the correct installment of a chain of heroes to transfer troops through the empire, here it's a question of what hiring where, and where and when to build Town Portal structures.
Even better: creature pool allows another try of DAILY growth (and in fact CRIES for it), which would be way better than weekly growth when you see it in connection with creature pool and of course conversion. The main reason why daily growth would be considered sucky was the possibility of extreme micro-management, basically sending reinforcements each day. Since the creature pool makes that unnecessary, daily growth fits way better to the whole system than weekly growth.
4) Clear distinction between might and magic damage. Ok, they messed up the "How", but it was still a correct decision to go that way.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 26, 2012 09:19 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 09:23, 26 Sep 2012.
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Quote:
And then angels, whom yes aren't true to the actual christian angels, but still finish grounding the faction into the classical medieval christian faction (if crusaders and monks weren't enough). Classical medieval christian faction. That's all I get from it.
The "Human" faction is quite obviously inspired by feudalism, medieval Europe and christianity, that much is true.
That's why we have "regular"-looking buildings in the human towns as well.
Even if the angels fulfill the role of your average Judeo-Christian angel, we do not exactly know 100% what the ancients are, which adds a level of mysticism to it.
Compare to H6 where angels serve the DRAGON OF LIGHT because it created them, and that's that.
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Efreeti are the demons of another culture than christian as well, I suppose that is to relieve the heavy christian influence.
I'd rather think it's because they tried to use 'races' before 'original creatures with unique names' whenever they could,
but I can't say for certain.
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Necropolis then. A very boring vampire jumps to mind. Probably because I fell in love with the Ubisoft design for the thing.
I never cared for brooding long-haired prettyboys but whatever...
What you see as boring, I see as a tribute to traditional fantasy (and D&D which in turn is based on mythology).
I guess that's why Ashan & inhabitants never did it for me.
The setting is not conservative enough to my liking, and yet not different enough (M&M III-V) to warrant any interest on my part.
It's just fantasy, period, complete with fancy light effects and exaggerated armor.
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Not even that with the undead. They're just bad people because they are. Or rather, because necromancy itself is evil.
That's age old in terms of belief (if you believe in necromancy, at any rate).
Yet some of the heroes (back when the heroes were more than just faces you could purchase) displayed benign qualities. They had different goals and motivations.
In H6, every bio goes on and on about how this hero was destined to join that faction.
The faction may be represented as stereotypical evil, but a capable writer is able to make saints out of devils (so to speak ) and vice versa.
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One thing I take from all this : very ordinary. No creativity. They took things from the real world (mostly mythological, with the one exception of the humans), and then had them interact with each other to some extent. That last part, the story, is interesting. The setting in which it takes place is just meh. Nothing new. Nothing special.
That was the point. Originality is hard to come by, but the setting was solid enough to function as a framework for stories to be built around. It's all in the execution.
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By contrast, the H6 approach to faction design inspires itself from IRL (mythology or not). It doesn't rip it out of there to put it in their own "world". They take it, then adapt it
They do, and in a very heavy-handed way too, might I add (about as heavy as my writing)
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There's cults, also. Beliefs. Whether you like it or not, religion was very central to society in medieval times (the overall setting of the world).
I'm okay with religion, just don't beat me over the head with it in every campagin that may or may not involve whiny protagonists in their quest for personal revenge.
Sandro may be a stereotypical villain but at least he had ambitions.
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The fate weavers are an amazing example of this adaptation. They took the actual fate weavers and adapted them to the necromancer philosophy, in a brilliant way I might add.
The necromancer philosophy is flawed at best, hypocritical at worst.
If "death is everlasting peace" and all that jazz, why don't they just stay dead then?
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The humans, you'll say, do not innovate much from their inspiration. Kinda true. But I find them the most interesting when contrasted with the H5 Haven. Let's do the evolution thing, but backwards, because H5 is the future of H6, lore-wise.
That's all rather interesting, but I've been told not to read too deeply into the changes of the lineups from H5 to H6, because Ashan wasn't fully fleshed out by the time H5 was made.
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To conclude, yes, storytelling is rather poor. But if they actually get it together, they've got a fantastic world to set it in.
Yes, if only. If only...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 26, 2012 11:56 AM |
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Quote:
One last element, which might've gone mostly unnoticed : the ghouls are created by inserting in them the souls of murderers, which I imagine is to justify why you're condemning someone to that torment. But the system, as I understand it, is a certain cycle of the souls, where souls go when they die, and they eventually come out of it to be reincarnated of sorts. Necromancers regulate that cycle and when they resurrect people they pick souls out of that mess, AFAIK. And then they justify their choice by saying this soul was a bad person. If you think about it, really hard, that puts the judgement of your life (y'know, you die, you get judged whether or not you were a good person?) into the hands of the necromancers, in a way. That is disturbing, but entertaining to think about.
I know I'm butting into a discussion with something irrelevant to the discussion itself, but my inner-scholar cannot let this go unmentioned. This depiction of the Ghouls is incorrect, by, I suppose, a flaw in your understanding/recollection of both the role of Necromancers and in the creation of Ghouls.
Let us start with what is correct. Yes, being made a Ghoul is considered a punishment by the Necromancers/Spider-cult. And yes, Ghouls are souls trapped inside a corpse, by which they are removed from the Cyclye of Life, Death and Rebirth. And yes, the Ghoul's feral nature is caused by the torment of being a Ghoul. But the description of Heroes 6 glosses some intricacies mentioned in Dark Messiah, which to my knowledge still stand for they have yet to be retconned.
First let us start by this, Necromancers do not controll or regulate the stream of souls in the Cycle. This Cycle goes on uninterrupted with or without interaction of the Necromancers. They do not stand on the "Shoreline" of the stream to pass judgement.
Second, Necromancers do not pluck souls and stuff them into a corpse, by which a they create a Ghoul. Necromancers sentence "criminals" to Ghouldom in life. Then they imprison the criminals and wait for or actually force death. At the time of death, a Necromancer is present and prevents the soul from leaving the corpse. The soul is locked inside the dead body and cannot leave the imprisonment without the destruction of the corpse or, one presumes, the releasing of the soul by a Necromancer.
However I suggest that such things as this be further discussed in the Lore thread.
Also for the record, I disagree with Zenofex' amalgamation of lore and story. And agree with Dave-Jame's and Simplicity's distinction between background/lore and story.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 26, 2012 12:01 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 18:41, 26 Sep 2012.
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What if the units of H6 don't die in battle, but instead are seriously wounded to the point that they will die after the battle, if something is not done for them (you could say they are KO'ed in a way).
that seems very likely
do you mean they are pokemons?
I was close to writing such a comparison, but I thought that some Heroes fans might have been offended with that Seriously though, that was a concept I created to show that fantastical ideas (like Life Drain for living units) may still have some kind of "logical" explanation. Even though it's still a fantastical world...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2012 12:19 PM |
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You call that LOGICAL? Units are only WOUNDED in battle and don't die? With what are they fighting? Toothpicks? Yeah, I can see how the Crushers waltz in, slamming those Sisters with their big maces on the heads and just beat them unconscious. Sure.
And the cool spells ... let's say Fireball. They only WOUND people? Giving them what? A bit of a sunburn?
So a SILLY explanation doesn't do, sorry.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted September 26, 2012 04:46 PM |
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Actually, I would think that it's more of the crusher cracking the Sister's skull and crushing her rib cage, while the fire ball blows off an arm and chars the rest of the body... but however you want to present it man.
[/irrelevant to the topic]
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted September 26, 2012 04:56 PM |
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The "Human" faction is quite obviously inspired by feudalism, medieval Europe and christianity, that much is true.
That's why we have "regular"-looking buildings in the human towns as well.
Even if the angels fulfill the role of your average Judeo-Christian angel, we do not exactly know 100% what the ancients are, which adds a level of mysticism to it.
Compare to H6 where angels serve the DRAGON OF LIGHT because it created them, and that's that..
Except they don't. They serve themselves, that's what H6 was all about. And that's why H6 de-christianizes them. They aren't serving some kind of almighty being/god/whatever. They're breeding bodies to resurrect their fallen, and then they're flinging the unsuitable bodies at their ageold enemies that killed so many of them, way back in the day. Such objectives humanizes them a lot. They're just another race trying to accomplish its own goals. The fate weavers are more angelic, in their own way. They're purely spirits, for starters. Angels aren't.
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I'd rather think it's because they tried to use 'races' before 'original creatures with unique names' whenever they could,
but I can't say for certain..
You are certainly free to think what you want, especially if it makes you feel better. But I'm not talking just about their names, I'm also talking about their looks. If you don't change either of those, it is copy pasting, to a degree.
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I never cared for brooding long-haired prettyboys but whatever....
That's not what they are. As I understand them, they are searching for a certain eternal perfection, mostly of the body. Yes that's very superficial. But so much more interesting.
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What you see as boring, I see as a tribute to traditional fantasy (and D&D which in turn is based on mythology).
I guess that's why Ashan & inhabitants never did it for me.
The setting is not conservative enough to my liking, and yet not different enough (M&M III-V) to warrant any interest on my part.
It's just fantasy, period, complete with fancy light effects and exaggerated armor.
Oh, I know it's a tribute to that traditionnal thing and whatnot. D&D, sure. Just as boring, if you ask me. But that's the thing though. They're innovating, not doing the same things as everyone else, and they're doing some things right. I like that. Sure, some people will prefer the traditionnal way. And yeah, those will not like the H6 that much. But at least H6 can say it had a world of its own. Anything "traditionnal to your sense will have a D&D style or close to it.
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Yet some of the heroes (back when the heroes were more than just faces you could purchase) displayed benign qualities. They had different goals and motivations.
In H6, every bio goes on and on about how this hero was destined to join that faction.
The faction may be represented as stereotypical evil, but a capable writer is able to make saints out of devils (so to speak ) and vice versa.
Well, that could be one of those places where I get corrected. I don't mind. But I never encountered those good necromancers in H3.
On a side note, H5-6 didn't need capable writers to get some good and some bad necromancers out of it. More balanced, see?
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That was the point. Originality is hard to come by, but the setting was solid enough to function as a framework for stories to be built around. It's all in the execution.
It's all in the execution, meaning it's all in the story? And D&D style gives the solid framework the story needs for the good execution? Am I getting it right?
If I'm right, I'll just say that if H7 or whatever gets a good story together, it'll be even more awesome from the fact that it's their own damn world.
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They do, and in a very heavy-handed way too, might I add (about as heavy as my writing)
You're not contrasting it with H3. You can very clearly see the inspirations for the units of H6, I don't deny that. But the inspirations weren't ripped out and put in H6.
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I'm okay with religion, just don't beat me over the head with it in every campagin that may or may not involve whiny protagonists in their quest for personal revenge.
Sandro may be a stereotypical villain but at least he had ambitions.
I said before, I'll say it again, they went too much into the whole fanatism. That being said, you can't do much of anything without religion getting involved in one way or another. Angels were very good in their role. Religion was the justification to their own goals. Humans were being very stupid about it. Too fanatical. Then again, reading myself and thinking on my just now finished class (religion and society in medieval west), they aren't that off either, at least for the people. The rulers are stupid though. That'd be my main gripe.
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The necromancer philosophy is flawed at best, hypocritical at worst.
If "death is everlasting peace" and all that jazz, why don't they just stay dead then?
Death being everlasting peace is not the crux of it. The necromancers, as I understand them (keep in mind my previous warning about not reading the official lore, this is my own interpretation), see themselves as something of the engineers that keep the whole life/death/ cycle working. If you see that cycle as a machine of sorts. That's accomplishing the will of their goddess as well, who is responsible for said cycle. Now, I do have the impression that their connection to their goddess comes through the fate weavers, and more specifically the Namtaru, and that they lost a large part of that connection with their goddess through the mage war. That gives way to much more extremism. Not that there wasn't room for it before. That idiot trying to kill everyone in the islands is an example. But generally, they were kept in check. That's grown more uncertain in H5.
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That's all rather interesting, but I've been told not to read too deeply into the changes of the lineups from H5 to H6, because Ashan wasn't fully fleshed out by the time H5 was made.
Thanks for thinking this was interesting. Now, if you want to religiously stick to what the game company says and not go beyond that, it'll get a little boring. But if they haven't given a story for it yet, I don't see what's wrong with elaborating one of our own (I mentionned each time that this all was my own interpretation from game experience, not what the devs were writing all over). And if they eventually bother to give their own version of it, I guess I'd have to adopt that. If it's good, I'll still be happy. If not, I don't know.... Guess I'd go and rage on a forum or something....
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To conclude, yes, storytelling is rather poor. But if they actually get it together, they've got a fantastic world to set it in.
Yes, if only. If only...
At least we agree on one thing. Considering it's the conclusion, I'm happy about that
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 26, 2012 06:46 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 18:49, 26 Sep 2012.
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JollyJoker said:
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You call that LOGICAL? Units are only WOUNDED in battle and don't die? With what are they fighting? Toothpicks? Yeah, I can see how the Crushers waltz in, slamming those Sisters with their big maces on the heads and just beat them unconscious. Sure.
Sometimes I wonder if it's worthwhile to write your thoughts on internet forums only to be dragged into a silly disputes. Internet you so cruel :/
As I said a couple of times this is only an example. Do not take it seriously. I said it's a stupid concept that was made up just to present my point of view, and I'm not a writer to write and essey about "The Mechanics of Drain Life in Heroes VI Universe". I don't want it to be considered the one and only explanation for this spell...
Drain Life in H6 belongs to Dark School. Dark School does not represent Necromancy it's only associated with it. And as such Drain Life is not an undead spell for undead unit use. If it would be renamed into Vampiric Touch the problem would still be present. You say that Drain Life is only logical when a unit is undead. So what, with Vampiric Touch you turn living units into vampires for couple of turns and then, after the spell ends, they change back to being normal? That is... not so logical in my opinion.
Although I started it, let's end this silly discussion because it seems we won't reach an agreement here.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2012 06:47 PM |
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You call that LOGICAL? Units are only WOUNDED in battle and don't die? With what are they fighting? Toothpicks? Yeah, I can see how the Crushers waltz in, slamming those Sisters with their big maces on the heads and just beat them unconscious. Sure.
And the cool spells ... let's say Fireball. They only WOUND people? Giving them what? A bit of a sunburn?
So a SILLY explanation doesn't do, sorry.
no no, you don't understand... think about tom and jerry
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2012 11:16 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
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You call that LOGICAL? Units are only WOUNDED in battle and don't die? With what are they fighting? Toothpicks? Yeah, I can see how the Crushers waltz in, slamming those Sisters with their big maces on the heads and just beat them unconscious. Sure.
Sometimes I wonder if it's worthwhile to write your thoughts on internet forums only to be dragged into a silly disputes. Internet you so cruel :/
As I said a couple of times this is only an example. Do not take it seriously. I said it's a stupid concept that was made up just to present my point of view, and I'm not a writer to write and essey about "The Mechanics of Drain Life in Heroes VI Universe". I don't want it to be considered the one and only explanation for this spell...
Drain Life in H6 belongs to Dark School. Dark School does not represent Necromancy it's only associated with it. And as such Drain Life is not an undead spell for undead unit use. If it would be renamed into Vampiric Touch the problem would still be present. You say that Drain Life is only logical when a unit is undead. So what, with Vampiric Touch you turn living units into vampires for couple of turns and then, after the spell ends, they change back to being normal? That is... not so logical in my opinion.
Although I started it, let's end this silly discussion because it seems we won't reach an agreement here.
That's not what I said. I said, that spell should change LIVING units into undead PERMANENTLY, which is the reason why it makes sense as a race specific undead spell only.
From a GAMEPLAY point of view, though, I was complaining about the fact that such a ... let's call it complex and powerful spell is readily available for EVERY hero on EVERY level, which seems wrong.
Which means, two points. ONE: what is the spell supposed to do -> it's somehow going beyond the borders of what is, well, acceptable, logically, when living units can suddenly leech the life out of units they kill, melee or otherwise, without any consequences. TWO: even if you'd say that, hey, if we try we can find an explanation, it's STILL so complicated that it defies reason that every stupid level 1 dabbler would be able to cast it; you'd think that it must be complicated.
So just considering the spell and it's effect, in my opinion it would be a good tier 2 spell, race-specific for the undead faction. That fits, no one wonders how and why, rookies can't cast it, and it seems to be a typical Necro trick.
Which is why I think that spell is the embodiment of everything that's wrong with H6: many good ideas, badly or half-baked implemented.
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