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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Things that H6 did right
Thread: Things that H6 did right This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 26, 2012 11:29 PM

Quote:
That's not what I said. I said, that spell should change LIVING units into undead PERMANENTLY


then that would be raise vampires from H4.

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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted September 27, 2012 07:01 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 08 Oct 2012.
Edited by gnomes2169 at 07:19, 27 Sep 2012.

Quote:
From a GAMEPLAY point of view, though, I was complaining about the fact that such a ... let's call it complex and powerful spell is readily available for EVERY hero on EVERY level, which seems wrong.

The thing in, in H6 it is not a high-level or god-modded spell. Sure it's powerful, but it's really the only effective late-game healing that any Inferno, Necropolis or Stronghold hero can use. It's percentage drained starts out rather low, and doesn't grow too much unless you have a magic hero that chooses the path of blood... but then (since you are using a magic hero) that forsakes might defense which causes your creatures to take more damage that they need to have healed somehow, so it's sort of a trade off...

I don't see a problem with its current placement, if they moved it up to level 2/ 3 I would hope that they would up its power to reflect this change.

Quote:
Which means, two points. ONE: what is the spell supposed to do -> it's somehow going beyond the borders of what is, well, acceptable, logically, when living units can suddenly leech the life out of units they kill, melee or otherwise, without any consequences. TWO: even if you'd say that, hey, if we try we can find an explanation, it's STILL so complicated that it defies reason that every stupid level 1 dabbler would be able to cast it; you'd think that it must be complicated.

Here's a game mechanic for you: It's called life drain right? Well, perhaps the reason why it works for all creatures from any range is that it takes the life force caused by damaging a living being and funnels/ transfers it into wounded/ dead units enchanted by the spell instead of simply letting said energy go to waste like it normally does. Of course, as you have said before, this is a complicated spell and most of the energy escapes this channeling because of its untested and rather unstable mechanics. But through practice, dedication and a powerful will to dominate life (the blood path) the caster can grasp more of this fleeting energy before it escapes and dissipates into nothingness.

This is also why it does not work against the undead of course, since the undead have no "Life force" holding their soul to their body, just the will of the necromancer that raised them and whatever dark magics, rituals, etc said necromancer used on them. These magics can use drained life-force as a substitute for the normal rituals/ willpower/ magic/ etc, converting the escaping energies of the dying into necromantic energies for whatever undead being so happens to be enchanted by this magic. (To explain the logical gap that Necromancers would be better at draining life/ raising the dead, of course.) Of course a necromancer, being a master of life and death, would be able to grasp more energy than any mortal or living being, but converting life force into whatever energy they need to raise the dead diminishes the full value of what is drained to an equal amount as other heroes with the same skill in magic as them.

Just a thought of course, stemming from the particular choice of the words "Life drain." One that I think makes sense, isn't overly-complicated and isn't as silly as, "I'm not dead yet."
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 27, 2012 09:48 AM
Edited by Avirosb at 09:54, 27 Sep 2012.

Quote:
Except they don't.
Fine, I was wrong then.
Haven't played the game but still, they were created by Dragon-of-Light-whose-name-eludes-me, weren't they?
Quote:
I'm also talking about their looks. If you don't change either of those, it is copy pasting, to a degree.
As far as I know, efreeti have no definite look,
they just tend to resemble genies in a lot of games because the two are closely related (if not interchangeable).
Quote:
That's not what they are. As I understand them, they are searching for a certain eternal perfection, mostly of the body. Yes that's very superficial. But so much more interesting.
Oh, so they're less long-haired prettyboys and more Vega from Street Fighter then.
Still don't like them, it looks like they spend more time getting their hair done than on the battlefield.
But then again, the tuxedo-wearing vampires look more like they belong in a party  
Quote:
Sure, some people will prefer the traditional way
Ya, the H5 genies and bookholder gargoyles taught me that
But I will say this, D&D does not just have traditional fantasy settings. Ebberon and Planescape for instance.
Quote:
Well, that could be one of those places where I get corrected. I don't mind. But I never encountered those good necromancers in H3.

Well, if we exclude Gauldoth (I didn't use the word good, then maybe...Nimbus, perhaps...?
I'll give you that the necromancers of H3 were mostly a bunch of rotten apples
but they had their own country, so they must have had some infrastructure.
Quote:
On a side note, H5-6 didn't need capable writers to get some good and some bad necromancers out of it. More balanced, see?
True, but H5 necropolis had relatively few heroes, while H6 necromancers aren't technically evil, they're just mistunderstood.
Quote:
It's all in the execution, meaning it's all in the story? And D&D style gives the solid framework the story needs for the good execution? Am I getting it right?
I fail to see how setting=story. Execution is the sum of what you see, hear, and read.
H2-4 required more reading than hearing and seeing if you don't count campaign briefings,
but their stories had me a lot more immersed than 'wacky time in Ashanland' (H5 cutscenes).
Haven't played H6 except for the demo, but judging from that,
the storytelling is less 'wacky' and more 'exposition'.
Quote:
You're not contrasting it with H3.
Sorry, I was thinking more about the design of the buildings for each faction and less about the faction lineups.
For instance, it is easier to spot the Asian influences on Sanctuary compared to Heroes 3' Rampart.
Quote:
I said before, I'll say it again, they went too much into the whole fanatism.
Agreed. They seem to be going in the right direction with their DLC though.
Just a shame it's, you know, DLC.
Quote:
Thanks for thinking this was interesting. Now, if you want to religiously stick to what the game company says and not go beyond that, it'll get a little boring.
I know, I just tend to get a lot of flak whenever I defend pre-4 Dungeons for being more than 'evil factions where evil creatures gather 'cause they're evil'

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 09:55 AM

Quote:

Here's a game mechanic for you: It's called life drain right? Well, perhaps the reason why it works for all creatures from any range is that it takes the life force caused by damaging a living being and funnels/ transfers it into wounded/ dead units enchanted by the spell instead of simply letting said energy go to waste like it normally does.
Sorry, but WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? "Life force caused by damaging a living being"? You mean, if a Marksman hits a Centaur with an arrow he "causes" life force?

What's that supposed to mean? He'll cause bleeding, bleeding and pain, but "life force"? And you think that "life force" "caused" by the act of damaging, wounding, killing might be taken and transferred to the Marksman, healing his arrow wound.

In that case, shouldn't there be a more general spell like Wail of the Netherworld, because that would work just the same: the spell does the damage, and part of the damage is used to heal and regenerate - except that's not what Dark Magic does: Dark Magic takes everything that comes from pain or damage and transfers it into UNlife, not into LIFE. That is the fundamental mistake. It isn't able to create or regenerate LIFE out of these negative things like death, pain, wounds, damage, agony and so on.

Which is the reason why the spell sucks. Note, that while in the normal course of the game Sanctuary and Haven HEROES have no access to Dark Magic, but OTHER heroes can of course cast the spell on, say, Spring Spirits (and with their ability at the same time on another unit).
Which makes no bloody sense whatsoever.

That's why I said, and, Fauch, that's what you've confused, not the ones that lose their "life force" should become undead. No. The living creatures that use the spell to regenerate life should become so, because it's not conceivable otherwise.
That, however, is a problem for gameplay.

Which means we are back at point one. The fundamental mistake is this: If you insist on making resurrection spells available for everyone EARLY, they should have put some effort into it and given every faction their own special thing for it. Like, I sketched one for Inferno, Fast Respawning or something. Life Drain for Necro. Waves of Renewal (Water-based) for Sanctuary, Heal for Haven, Mother Earth's Love (or whatever) for Stronghold (Earth-based Regeneration).

Of course the no-losses approach would STILL suck, but then it would make some sense at least.

What we have instead is a half-baked patchwork without rhyme or reason, which is the problem the game has.

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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted September 27, 2012 11:38 AM
Edited by einomida at 11:54, 27 Sep 2012.

Quote:
except that's not what Dark Magic does: Dark Magic takes everything that comes from pain or damage and transfers it into UNlife, not into LIFE. That is the fundamental mistake.


It's not a mistake. You only think it is.
I don't know much about H6 lore, but from this thread I read about how Ghouls were made - by forcing souls stay in dead bodies, basically.
Now, in essence, this means the main driving force of both living and undead is the same. That is, whatever keeps the soul going.
The only difference between Heal and Life Drain then, is the source of which the spell takes its power. With Heal it's divine, with Life Drain it's pain/agony.
Simple.

Edit: so why can't undead units be healed? Well maybe the Heal spell itself makes a distinction between pure and impure beings.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 12:13 PM

Quote:
Quote:
except that's not what Dark Magic does: Dark Magic takes everything that comes from pain or damage and transfers it into UNlife, not into LIFE. That is the fundamental mistake.


It's not a mistake. You only think it is.
I don't know much about H6 lore, but from this thread I read about how Ghouls were made - by forcing souls stay in dead bodies, basically.
Now, in essence, this means the main driving force of both living and undead is the same. That is, whatever keeps the soul going.
The only difference between Heal and Life Drain then, is the source of which the spell takes its power. With Heal it's divine, with Life Drain it's pain/agony.
Simple.

Huh? If you were right you could Heal undead and Life Drain undead (or at least Ghouls) which is not the case.
Also, "whatever keeps the soul going" is not what we are talking about, because that would mean, we wouldn't kill BODIES, but SOULS, when draining Life, which isn't the case either, since all souls - even those of the undead eventually go either to Asha or to Urgash (Sheogh).

In any case, there is still the preposterous concept that spells like that can be managed by rookie Barbarians. That makes no sense whatsoever.

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blob2
blob2


Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted September 27, 2012 12:28 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 08 Oct 2012.
Edited by blob2 at 12:44, 27 Sep 2012.

Quote:
That's why I said, and, Fauch, that's what you've confused, not the ones that lose their "life force" should become undead. No. The living creatures that use the spell to regenerate life should become so, because it's not conceivable otherwise.
That, however, is a problem for gameplay.


Unfortunately for me, although I thought otherwise, I can stay quiet about this:

http://fable.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Life
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=689/drain-life
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Life

So, examples of drain life in those games are also wrong? As you can see it's not required for your character to be undead to use these spells. Sure, I get the point that the main thing that is not to your liking is that in H6 Drain Life not only heals but also resurrects living units so those should be made undead in the process. But how do you picture a H6 battle without resurrection. Especially with low-HP tier 1 units. I mean, what: I'll heal my 18 HP Coral Priestess to full health and that's it. Because making her "undead" in the process of Drain Life spell is illogical all I can do is heal her wounds, and after that my enemy will kill 30 of them with a fireball. Wow, what a great tactical advantage that is...


Quote:
Which means we are back at point one. The fundamental mistake is this: If you insist on making resurrection spells available for everyone EARLY, they should have put some effort into it and given every faction their own special thing for it. Like, I sketched one for Inferno, Fast Respawning or something. Life Drain for Necro. Waves of Renewal (Water-based) for Sanctuary, Heal for Haven, Mother Earth's Love (or whatever) for Stronghold (Earth-based Regeneration).


Sure... and that would make people like you say that the skill tree is so much more boring then it actually is, because every faction has some kind of "healing" mechanism. What's the point of magic schools then. If every magic school or race had healing spells, there would be no distinction between them. If you want healing spells choose an appropriate magic school be it light, earth or dark. If you want destructive spells invest in fire or air magic. It's as easy as that. And about how easy is to obtain those spells for every hero and army:

Firstly: you say that the game constructed in such a way that any stupid barbarian can obtain such powerful spells like Drain Life with ease. But I don't think (and it's true in any Heroes game) that a hero who is able to lead an army that represents a whole kingdom or tribe is your average stupid barbarian or shaman. The fact that his only level 1 at the start of the game is only a mechanic that enables you to develop him further. But reading those heroes biographies already tells us that they are unique, selected individuals that represent the best of the best any faction has to offer. So, they are already talented warriors or mages to begin with. Well, at least, that's how I see things in Heroes games...

Secondly: If every faction has an easy access to healing spells what's the point of making faction-specific healing "special things". If we have specific magic schools for that purpose you can always use them. It's your choice. Also, don't forget that to make your spells  strong you must invest some points in the specific magic (spell power for instance). So it's not only about picking the Drain Life spell. You still have to make it strong to be useful in a battle.

But the thing with which I can agree with you is that Warriors should have a more limited access to magic (less magic scholls maybe) because reducing a skill tree by only one tier doesn't seem to quite deliver... and vice-versa with Mages of course...

I think that H4 was the best in that matter. A high-level Might hero was a one-man army, and a Magic hero had devastating damage spells. Although imbalanced, the overall feeling of this distinction was hitting the spot for me.

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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted September 27, 2012 12:44 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
except that's not what Dark Magic does: Dark Magic takes everything that comes from pain or damage and transfers it into UNlife, not into LIFE. That is the fundamental mistake.


It's not a mistake. You only think it is.
I don't know much about H6 lore, but from this thread I read about how Ghouls were made - by forcing souls stay in dead bodies, basically.
Now, in essence, this means the main driving force of both living and undead is the same. That is, whatever keeps the soul going.
The only difference between Heal and Life Drain then, is the source of which the spell takes its power. With Heal it's divine, with Life Drain it's pain/agony.
Simple.

Huh? If you were right you could Heal undead and Life Drain undead (or at least Ghouls) which is not the case.
Also, "whatever keeps the soul going" is not what we are talking about, because that would mean, we wouldn't kill BODIES, but SOULS, when draining Life, which isn't the case either, since all souls - even those of the undead eventually go either to Asha or to Urgash (Sheogh).

In any case, there is still the preposterous concept that spells like that can be managed by rookie Barbarians. That makes no sense whatsoever.


I edited my previous post, you missed that part. And to add Life Drain - undead don't feel pain or agony, that's why it doesn't work on them.

Perhaps you're not killing (that is, erasing their existence) the souls, but simply depleting them of the energy they need to exist in this world; or in a form anyone but Asha or Urgash can comprehend.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 01:26 PM

Quote:


I edited my previous post, you missed that part. And to add Life Drain - undead don't feel pain or agony, that's why it doesn't work on them.

Perhaps you're not killing (that is, erasing their existence) the souls, but simply depleting them of the energy they need to exist in this world; or in a form anyone but Asha or Urgash can comprehend.
Your speculation makes no sense. You said I'm wrong because of the Ghouls, and I said, the Ghouls have nothing to do with it. Now you try to create some strange "rules" from scratch - however, that Life Drain doesn't work on undead has nothing to do with their inability to feel but with the fact that they have no life you could drain them of, because if they had they would be living.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 01:48 PM

Quote:
Quote:
That's why I said, and, Fauch, that's what you've confused, not the ones that lose their "life force" should become undead. No. The living creatures that use the spell to regenerate life should become so, because it's not conceivable otherwise.
That, however, is a problem for gameplay.


Unfortunately for me, although I thought otherwise, I can stay quiet about this:

http://fable.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Life
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=689/drain-life
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Life

So, examples of drain life in those games are also wrong?
Since I don't know exactly how the spells work in those games I can't say anything about it - I doubt, though, that they work the same. Mind you, Life Drain in Heroes is NOT killing ANYTHING. I already said that if you had a DAMAGE spell, that would kill living targets by draining them off of their life force (leaving them withered husks) and advanced version tghat would channel said "life force" to another target might make sense.

However, the Heroes version takes the Life Force "lost" by mundane attacks. Somehow. And that is just WRONG. Because it's based on the old Vampiric Touch/Vampirism idea, except that the recipients are NOT temporarily undead OR limited to melee attacks.
Now if THOSE were HIGH level spells - why then is this much better one low level. And how does it work?

Quote:
But how do you picture a H6 battle without resurrection.
You're kidding, are you? Why would we have ANY kind of resurrection? The units are tougher than in every other heroes game. In V, you battle Hordes of level 1 creatures that will hurt you BADLY if they get in a hit. IT IS NORMAL TO LOSE CREATURES!!! At least in a Heroes game. Why do we even need the resurrection nonsense?

Quote:

Quote:
Which means we are back at point one. The fundamental mistake is this: If you insist on making resurrection spells available for everyone EARLY, they should have put some effort into it and given every faction their own special thing for it. Like, I sketched one for Inferno, Fast Respawning or something. Life Drain for Necro. Waves of Renewal (Water-based) for Sanctuary, Heal for Haven, Mother Earth's Love (or whatever) for Stronghold (Earth-based Regeneration).


Sure... and that would make people like you say that the skill tree is so much more boring then it actually is, because every faction has some kind of "healing" mechanism. What's the point of magic schools then. If every magic school or race had healing spells, there would be no distinction between them. If you want healing spells choose an appropriate magic school be it light, earth or dark. If you want destructive spells invest in fire or air magic.
You are kidding me again. One main point of criticism is that the skill tree is the same for everyone. That faction-specific abilities would be needed. And a very POWERFUL game mechanism that allows to bring back DEAD creatures would certainly be a candidate then for such a faction-specific thing. After all - DEMONS DO NOT DIE AT ALL. They simply vanish and respawn in Sheogh. Eventually. So how are THEY brought back from limbo anyway via life drain?

Now, if YOU are satisfied with the way these things work in VI, fine, I'm NOT, however. I'm not.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 27, 2012 02:26 PM

Please drop it JJ. Discussing semantics doesn't help this discussion in any way.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 03:10 PM

Why would *I* drop it?

And it's not semantics, not at all. In my opinion - which I have explained very thoroughly - the spell doesn't make sense lore-wise (consistency of world and workings in that world), and it doesn't make sense gameplay-wise (not the only one that doesn't make sense, of course), because every rookie can suddenly resurrect creatures, like there's no tomorrow.

It is something they did DEFINITELY NOT right, and even if you wanted to have that same effect, you could have done it way better.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 27, 2012 03:17 PM

*I* agree with you, JJ (although you probably wish I didn't).

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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted September 27, 2012 03:43 PM

Quote:
Sorry, but WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? "Life force caused by damaging a living being"? You mean, if a Marksman hits a Centaur with an arrow he "causes" life force?

Ahhhhhh, I knew I had a typo somewhere... No, damaging an individual does not "Cause" or "Create" life force, it causes life force to leave a creature. And if a creature is affected by Life drain fractions of that are channeled by the hero into that stack to heal/ resurrect the creatures in it.

Quote:
Which is the reason why the spell sucks. Note, that while in the normal course of the game Sanctuary and Haven HEROES have no access to Dark Magic, but OTHER heroes can of course cast the spell on, say, Spring Spirits (and with their ability at the same time on another unit).

They can also cast agony, weakness, terror and puppet master on Haven and Sanctuary creatures, should they not be affected by them since they don't have dark magic? Because the only time you would see a hero using dark magic with the creatures mentioned above is in a battle against them. Faction-mixing and/ or ditching your starting faction for another just doesn't happen in H6.

What I think you don't see is that dark magic is the causing of pain, weakness, draining of life and the negative transfer of life (i.e. hurt something to make yourself healthier and stronger). Nothing in that screams that it is restricted to the undead to use/ be affected by it, which is why other (more or less evil or neutral and chaotic) factions are able to use Dark Magic in battle, even though they are not undead. It's also probably the only late-game source of healing that Inferno can get, so I'm not going to complain.

Something I would like to add to Elvin's list: I did like how you could hire the secondary hero you wanted at any time you wanted to do so. While I thought there were too many heroes and the resurrection function was a bit broken, I did like getting an assured economy/ army boosting hero at any time I wanted. And the fact that they leveled up as the game progressed was also helpful, since I didn't like having to work/ deal with leveling up a lvl 1 hero every time I wanted a new one.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 03:44 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 08 Oct 2012.

Why would I wish that?

These things are not matters of black & white, and even if I played HoMM 2 and HoMM 3 years and years, I can still make a long list of things that were not ok or could have been better.
Likewise, for HoMM 6 I can make a list of good things and a list of bad or not so good things, and in the end, for the actual game in question it's the bottom line that counts.

Now for VI, the way the game is set up, you couldn't take out Life Drain. OR Regeneration. OR Heal. In fact - and you can ask Elvin about that - the re-balancing in the 1.5 series of patches that changed the abilities of resurrecting-able creatures with those of their upgrade so that only the upgraded creatures can resurrect dead creatures has been my work to force all factions equally into using up mana when they want to avoid dead creatures in the beginning, and Life Drain is an important spell for the non-Light factions that you cannot take away.

However, you could (and should) have set up the whole thing differently, so the fact that it works can't hide the other fact that it's not something that was done good, but more like another Frankenstein's Monster within a patchwork of ideas and implementations and mechanics.

There is a difference between "things HoMM VI did well" and "things that could be animated to function".

Such things exist for all games, but it makes no sense to hail or celebrate them as a good thing.

Undoing creature loss may be something worth to have in games like Disciples where you lose a lot, once a creature dies, but it makes no sense whatsoever in a game like Heroes where one of the main targets is to get a steady flow of reinforcement creatures, that is, to build an always bigger army. Losses are one important way to differentiate between good and bad play, and if losses mount you finally lose the ability to beat something an opponent with less losses CAN beat, so the gap between good and bad play can get bigger.
Consequently, ways to undo creature losses should be expensive/difficult and not the cheapest arrow in your quiver.

Still, that doesn't mean the game is bad. It's not a question of either good or bad, just this thread says, DID WELL, not FORCED INTO WORKING SHAPE or something like that

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 03:57 PM

Quote:

What I think you don't see is that dark magic is the causing of pain, weakness, draining of life and the negative transfer of life (i.e. hurt something to make yourself healthier and stronger).
And what you don't see is that there is NO Dark Magic effect EXCEPT Life Drain that makes something healthier or stronger. NONE. Except that undead creatures have abilities allowing to transform death for the living into, well, animation of undead energy (Spectres and Archliches and of course Vampires. What you call "negative transfer of life" is simply not existing in the game except for UNlife - the transfer of Life to make something UNDEAD stronger.
Which makes sense.

Would you say it makes a lot of sense that you can slap Regeneration onto your Jaguar Warriors as a Barbarian, followed by Life Drain and closing it with a nice Heal?

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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted September 27, 2012 06:29 PM
Edited by gnomes2169 at 18:40, 27 Sep 2012.

Quote:
And what you don't see is that there is NO Dark Magic effect EXCEPT Life Drain that makes something healthier or stronger. NONE.

And there is none in earth magic beyond regeneration. Does that mean that regeneration does not have the right to exist? Just because your school specializes in something (Earth is defense and siege breaking, dark specializes in lingering damage and curses) does not mean that the school cannot dabble in other magics.

For example: Fire has moral, movement and damage boosting effects to compliment its Direct Damage aspect (all of these effects are offensive), but it also has that fire shield ability which is purely defensive.
Air just does all the things, DD, stunning, ranged defense, enchanting damage, etc.
Water has offense (Ice shard, COW, Blizzard), defense (Ice shield and wall) and affects that work with the idea of freezing the opponent (that shatter ability...)

Light is really the only pure defense and healing school and Dark is its counter with its own form of healing that requires death to work. I do not have a problem with this dichotomy, and the life draining ability has always belonged to the "Dark" factions and magics. Or would you say that Death in H4 was not dark?

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Would you say it makes a lot of sense that you can slap Regeneration onto your Jaguar Warriors as a Barbarian, followed by Life Drain and closing it with a nice Heal?

As the hero using the spells is the closest thing to neutrally aligned as Heroes comes, I would say so (Though I would like using a shaman better). Regeneration is a lingering spell that replenishes life, closes wounds and restores the body in general, life drain is taking part of the life force from their victims and healing is using magic to replenish a large amount of life force in one go. Of all of them, healing and regeneration are absolutely positive gains (nothing is harmed, energy is just created) while life drain is a negative gain, since it requires that you actually deal damage to something before you are healed.

Basically, all three are different functions that result in the same outcome: Heal is a one shot boost to life force, regeneration repairs damaged life force over time and life drain is a parasitic replacement of lost energies. I don't see why they can't or shouldn't be used together if one has the opportunity to do so, since that is a very effective way to keep your troops alive on the battlefield.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred

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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted September 27, 2012 06:50 PM

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I edited my previous post, you missed that part. And to add Life Drain - undead don't feel pain or agony, that's why it doesn't work on them.

Perhaps you're not killing (that is, erasing their existence) the souls, but simply depleting them of the energy they need to exist in this world; or in a form anyone but Asha or Urgash can comprehend.
Your speculation makes no sense. You said I'm wrong because of the Ghouls, and I said, the Ghouls have nothing to do with it. Now you try to create some strange "rules" from scratch - however, that Life Drain doesn't work on undead has nothing to do with their inability to feel but with the fact that they have no life you could drain them of, because if they had they would be living.


The ghouls thing was an example.
And I'm not trying to make up new rules; I'm trying to explain the way Life Drain is presented in H6.
The thing is, H6 doesn't fit your "rules" and you're trying to shoot it down without considering there might be other options to "life" than what you consider.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 07:26 PM

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And what you don't see is that there is NO Dark Magic effect EXCEPT Life Drain that makes something healthier or stronger. NONE.

And there is none in earth magic beyond regeneration.
Wrong: Stoneskin.
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For example: Fire has moral, movement and damage boosting effects to compliment its Direct Damage aspect (all of these effects are offensive), but it also has that fire shield ability which is purely defensive.
It's not PURELY defensive, but that's irrelevant because we are not talking about whether stuff is offensive or defensive - if you STRENGTHEN the ATTACK of YOUR OWN creatures it's OFFENSIVE, and if you STRENGTHEN the DEFENSE of YOUR OWN creatures it's DEFENSIVE - in both cases you are strengthening something.
DARK MAGIC doesn't STRENGTHEN, but WEAKEN. It doesn't GIVE strength, life or whatever, it TAKES something. It corrupts. Effects would be poison, rust. It makes no sense that this "force" would make CONSTRUCTIVE use of damage and so on - except for the undead which are "corrupted" anyway.

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the life draining ability has always belonged to the "Dark" factions and magics. Or would you say that Death in H4 was not dark?
But Life Drain works different in H4; it's a DAMAGE spell against Nature and Life targets, it STEALS HPs, and THE CASTER gains part of those. It's an immediate spell that has no duration, and it doesn't work on creatures.

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Would you say it makes a lot of sense that you can slap Regeneration onto your Jaguar Warriors as a Barbarian, followed by Life Drain and closing it with a nice Heal?

As the hero using the spells is the closest thing to neutrally aligned as Heroes comes, I would say so (Though I would like using a shaman better). Regeneration is a lingering spell that replenishes life, closes wounds and restores the body in general, life drain is taking part of the life force from their victims and healing is using magic to replenish a large amount of life force in one go. Of all of them, healing and regeneration are absolutely positive gains (nothing is harmed, energy is just created) while life drain is a negative gain, since it requires that you actually deal damage to something before you are healed.

Basically, all three are different functions that result in the same outcome: Heal is a one shot boost to life force, regeneration repairs damaged life force over time and life drain is a parasitic replacement of lost energies. I don't see why they can't or shouldn't be used together if one has the opportunity to do so, since that is a very effective way to keep your troops alive on the battlefield.
Not correct. Regeneration regenerates undead as well, although there is no "life force" involved for them. Which means, it has nothing to do with "Life Force". Life Drain is NOT working on undead, however, it doesn't "steal" or "leech" anything either, since it doesn't kill, but only "makes use" of what is killed anyway and without the spell. Heal doesn't say anything about Life Force either - in fact you can cast the spell on enemy undead, demons and Orcs and kill them, so this spell has nothing to do with "Life Force", but uses Light for two different purposes - to either resurrect or kill.

"Life Force" is just something like an ASSUMPTION of you that comes from the fact that the spell WAS actually Vampirism (which HAD something to do with stealing Life force).
So your whole story is simply WRONG - it doesn't fit the facts.

Yeah, and the question wasn't why you shouldn't use something when you can, the question was why you CAN.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 27, 2012 07:35 PM

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I edited my previous post, you missed that part. And to add Life Drain - undead don't feel pain or agony, that's why it doesn't work on them.

Perhaps you're not killing (that is, erasing their existence) the souls, but simply depleting them of the energy they need to exist in this world; or in a form anyone but Asha or Urgash can comprehend.
Your speculation makes no sense. You said I'm wrong because of the Ghouls, and I said, the Ghouls have nothing to do with it. Now you try to create some strange "rules" from scratch - however, that Life Drain doesn't work on undead has nothing to do with their inability to feel but with the fact that they have no life you could drain them of, because if they had they would be living.


The ghouls thing was an example.
And I'm not trying to make up new rules; I'm trying to explain the way Life Drain is presented in H6.
The thing is, H6 doesn't fit your "rules" and you're trying to shoot it down without considering there might be other options to "life" than what you consider.
The thing is that you thought you had a point, but you have none, and you come up with wrong claims and wrong conclusions to support the assumption that there might be options I don't consider.
That, however, is irrelevant either, because that's true for EVERYTHING. For all and everything there may be options and stuff I, you or everyone else do not consider, but when I read a story, play a game or watch a movie, if something doesn't seem right I don't start looking for excuses or options that may explain the ... gap. It's the task of the story, movie, game or book to deliver that, to make it believable. If it doesn't do that, if there are contradictions, inconsistencies and so on - bad for them. They sisn't do their homework.
Period.

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