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| Thread: Things that H6 did right |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted September 28, 2012 07:21 PM |
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In H6 it isn't much of a choice because there is no acceptable alternative. Skipping on heal/regen/life drain would be akin to bleeding from a hundred minor cuts, not lethal in itself but you'll feel the difference later  Ideally both blood and tears, might and magic should have a viable alternative whether it involves protecting yourself or harming the enemy.
That's why duels are good. You don't need healing per say, since there's only one battle.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2012 09:06 PM |
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ALL Heroes game until VI would allow a resurrection of living units only with a high mastery of spells or with highest level creatures - except for the undead who could walk a better paved road here.
True but spells like Drain Life are scaled down accordingly, a level one Drain Life is not what I call a high level spell (in terms of power that is) so what's the problem? Surely, it's not a game-breaker isn't it? The spell will be a "high level" one after you acquire a a lot of spellpower points. Heroes 6 introduced a bit of a different approach to learning spells. You say that you don't like the fact that resurrection spell is so easy to acquire in Heroes 6 and that a level one hero doesn't need one. Well sorry to disappoint you but I find healing spells useful in every phase of the game, be it the first few weeks or the last months of a scenario. An example: at the beginning you have only a dozen archers and sentinels and it's hard to conquer land with such a small number of troops. And as we now the quicker you get more resources or mines etc the faster you build bigger forces. So every unit counts, every lost archer is a serious loss for your army (well at least at the beginning of the game, but that's what I'm concentrating on in this example). Sure, you must plan your battle tactics accordingly, but there are fights that aren't possible to win without loosing your troops. And that's when healing and resurrection spells come in handy.
Well, I know the game - what you describe, tne difficulty, is EXACTLY what makes the game interesting.
And it's very simple, actually: if you don't have a way to UNDO losses, it's important whether you lose no Archer, one Archer, two Archers or three Archers in any given battle. If you have resurrection spells, the only question is whether you lose NONE or not more than, say, three. That's because once you HAVE losses, you can have as many as you can heal by casting one spell. Right?
So more subtle differences in play simply disappear.
However, there's much more to it. At least within the bounds of these forums I was the first to find out - and complain about - that it's actually better to have LESS troops than more, in the beginning. You see, I've been playing 90% Inferno last year, and all people complained that Inferno would have so many losses while creeping. However, it was fairly simple to avoid losses, you just needed to hire two heroes with the same troop types - 2 magic ones are simpler than 2 might ones, but even might ones work - and give one of them all Succubi and the other all dogs or maniacs, preferably dogs, due to their unlimited retaliation. With only ONE stack in the army you could creep quite effortless, because you could cast a simple regeneration on said one stack, and end of story, while with two stacks you might have losses with both which would need 2 spells which you often couldn't cast.
THAT makes no sense.
The game is supposed to be difficult. You shouldn't have an easy ride to do whatever you want. Of course Resurrection spells come handy, but there are those things that come TOO handy, and those spells are an example for it.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 28, 2012 10:08 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 22:16, 28 Sep 2012.
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The game is supposed to be difficult. You shouldn't have an easy ride to do whatever you want. Of course Resurrection spells come handy, but there are those things that come TOO handy, and those spells are an example for it.
Well, you seem to be a player who likes a challenge. But that's you. On the other hand, there are players who claim that Heroes 6 is a hard game, I have seen their complaints on forums (some even have problems with finishing the prologue missions). Many players like to play games casually, they may find your statement that the game is supposed to be difficult quite controversial. And you cannot tell them to play a different game then, because they have the same right to play as you do. And the devs must manoeuvre between hardcore fans and those casual players. What I can tell from my experience is that H6 is easier from H3 or H4 but it might be because I'm an experienced player when it comes to Heroes games. But I think that even with all those "easy-to-get" healing spells there is plenty of room for strategy in the game.
You see, it's really hard to appease every player. Example: many players flamed Blizzard for making Inferno mode in Diablo 3 too hard. Now Blizzard is getting bashed by other players because they decided to nerf the mode. This is how f'ed up things can get when it comes to balancing games. It's really hard to find the perfect remedy. You are an excellent example: you figured out a strategy which exploits using healing spells early on by dividing your forces. The point is whatever the developers create, people will find holes in it. They can move Drain Life to higher tiers, I don't mind, I will have to find another ways to "undo" loses then. But at the same time I don't find easy access to Drain Life or Heal or Regeneration a bad thing. And many players will probably cry: where are my healing spells! if devs change that (but it's not very likely). Imho those spells don't make the game that much easier, because they still won't change much with more complex or powerful enemies, if you don't have a good strategy...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2012 10:25 PM |
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Many players like to play games casually, they may find your statement that the game is supposed to be difficult quite controversial. And you cannot tell them to play a different game then, because they have the same right to play as you do.
That's not what I tell them. I tell them to play the game on EASY difficulty.
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einomida
Known Hero
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posted September 28, 2012 10:37 PM |
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Well JJ is right that healing is problematic.
Not strategic, combat oriented healing, but long-term, sustain based healing.
However, it only becomes really noticeable in multiplayer games. Versus AI it's, imo, not that important.
As already said, in duels it's not an issue at all.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 28, 2012 10:44 PM |
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Quote:
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Many players like to play games casually, they may find your statement that the game is supposed to be difficult quite controversial. And you cannot tell them to play a different game then, because they have the same right to play as you do.
That's not what I tell them. I tell them to play the game on EASY difficulty.
Well then I can tell you to play on HARD difficulty. The game is supposed to be difficult there right? Now everyone's happy...
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 28, 2012 11:11 PM |
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Quote:
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Many players like to play games casually, they may find your statement that the game is supposed to be difficult quite controversial. And you cannot tell them to play a different game then, because they have the same right to play as you do.
That's not what I tell them. I tell them to play the game on EASY difficulty.
I got owned on easy though.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 28, 2012 11:40 PM |
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I find it worrying that people talk about healing and resurrection as if they are the same thing.
Which they very well may be in H6 (I wouldn't know), but there used to be a difference.
Question:
Does every healing spell/ability resurrect dead creatures in a stack
when you heal more than the current creature's max HP?
I remember having asked about this before, but I've fogotten the answer.
Thanks.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2012 11:47 PM |
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If not, do you think there was a discussion?
All regular spells Heal, Regeneration and Life Drain revive dead creatures within a stack that has creatures not = 0. Only when a stack is dead completely there is a difference. The racial necromancy can reviove dead stacks and the angel's resurrection can. (Called Blade of Something)
I should add, that vanilla H6 had basic core creatures Sisters/Vestals for Haven, Coral/Pearl Priestesses for Sanctuary and Ghosts/Spectres for Necropolis also being able to cast true Resurrection spells: Heal (Heal), Waves of Renewal (Regeneration) and Wail of the Netherworld (spell resurrects a target friendly undead unit and damages adjacent living enemy units, if any).
With 1.5 that changed so that only the upgrades of these units have resurrection abilities, so that right from the start all factions will have to burn hero mana to resurrect their losses. Also mana costs of those spells have been increased so that the use is a bit more limited.
So 1.5 basically made resurrection via creature ability an option instead of a feature, since it is necessary to build the basic creature dwelling AND grade it up, and while building the basic dwelling may not be the hardest decision in the world, building the upgrade is much more of a decision, since it costs Crystals and there are alternatives.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 29, 2012 04:13 PM |
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I think that the reason of our dispute comes from the idea behind making unit tiers. Easy access healing and resurrection spells are the effect of the devs idea to make first tier units even more self-sufficient. Imo the idea of tiers was good, they wanted to make something new, but it wasn't executed good enough. Personally I like the old, unit levels 1-7 Heroes 3 system more (H4 levels 1-4 system was also to my liking by the way). The differences between strength of each unit was what made each of those units unique. In H3 you could "feel" that a level 4 unit was indeed stronger then level 3 unit etc. Each unit had it's role on the battlefield, be it cannon fodder level one units (which in great numbers were still dangerous) or the main offensive one (like thunder-birds) or tank (like minotaurs). In H6 I get an idea that some units could be more useful then they really are. I don't say that H6 system is bad, but I liked the older Heroes games unit classification better.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 29, 2012 08:30 PM |
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I don't think so.
In my opinion the tier stuff doesn't change anything. Sure, in Heroes 3 and 5, each level brings a better and more erxpensive creature, but if you consider growth things get less clear. On the other hand that includes level 7: in Heroes 3, for example, the 4 Dread Knights are more powerful than the 2 Ghost Dragons - or at least as powerful: you might say, they are the same "tier".
For 3 and 5, if you really try, you can find many tiers, and the good thing there was - or is - that it's different for each faction (no 3-3-1 structure for everyone, but individual structures).
With 2 it's less clear, since you'd have to leave one creature at home anyway. In 2 growth differences are much smaller, therefore the differences between creatures are bigger - in general.
With 4 it's the same, even though the growth differences are big.
So I don't think the tier system is such a big deal.
Another point against Life Drain is the fact that it doesn't work against undead, when you consider overall balance, because it left Inferno with another disadvantage against Necropolis. This howwever is part of another H6 problem (or a thing done not so good): overall balance.
I'd like to point out again that Life Drain is a spell that of course has to be seen with a view on the general "resurrect situation". If you accept the Heal spell, then a Dark Magic spell is needed for the factions that have Dark, but no light.
However, it wasn't necessary to do it that way, and I think that they could have made this way better, which is why I do NOT think that Life Drain is something HoMM 6 did well.
And to close this - your "counter", I should play on hard... even if I wouldn't do that, it makes no sense: if the casual player simply plays on easy by MY rules, without low level resurrection spells, there won't be any difference: they will still have a beer-and-pretzel game doing fine. If *I* play by YOUR rules on hard, there is still no difference, whether I lose 1 or 3 units, since the spell will take care of the difference.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2012 09:15 PM |
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reputation
town conversion/town portals
might/magic damage for the creatures
graphic design
area of control/forts
just that.
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blazejo85
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 05, 2012 10:04 PM |
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Hi Elvin,
I mostly agree with what you posted but I have a little question. You wrote:
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One of the issues with the H5 devil was that he was so susceptible to dark spells, in a faction that did not have the vampirism counter until the second addon. H6 avoided the issue by making the pitlord immune to crowd control.
I'm curious what do you mean by "crowd control". If we are talking about Blinded by rage ability then from my experience spells like Slow and Puppet master works on pit lords/pit fiends, although the description says otherwise (at least in polish version ) Am I missing something or this is just another bug.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 05, 2012 10:25 PM |
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Unfortunately the ability got bugged along the way  Will make a report on the current issues and hopefully the devs can fix them by the time the addon is released.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 03:53 PM |
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It may have done a lot of things right, but i still have the feeling that h6 will be the worst heroes game, also i fear that there wont be more expansions after SoD. H6 failed harder then h5 and i thought it was not possible  . Anyways im happy that after playing the demo i decided to not buy it. It would have been such a big disappointment lol.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 04:08 PM |
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It may have done a lot of things right, but i still have the feeling that h6 will be the worst heroes game, also i fear that there wont be more expansions after SoD. H6 failed harder then h5 and i thought it was not possible . Anyways im happy that after playing the demo i decided to not buy it. It would have been such a big disappointment lol.
you should try H:IV then
thank me later!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 07, 2013 04:23 PM |
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Heroes IV was as a whole far better made than both the initial versions of Heroes V and Heroes VI. People have short memory.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 07, 2013 04:30 PM |
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For sure Heroes IV is much better than HV & HVI vanilla - just very different from the "classic" HoM&M, that's why it's so much hated.
But it has the better campaigns of the whole series and a superb ambientation.
Although the lame infernopolis was so stupid
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 05:07 PM |
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what heroes 6 did right : the respecialisation's button when you obtain the first level of blood or tears path.
That allow to change strategy in middle game to surprise your enemy opponent.
In campaign i found it very useful to change skills for others because my first build were good to creep but not so good to engaged the final batlle.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 07, 2013 07:35 PM |
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I found that pretty rotten myself. If you can change skills at will there is no element of planning as you can do whatever you wish with no consequences. You could pick logistics and enlightenment for the boost and then just forget them. I'd much rather have a limited form of re-learning skills with a memory mentor where you pay per skill you wish to forget.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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