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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Rockets, airstrikes reignite Mideast conflict
Thread: Rockets, airstrikes reignite Mideast conflict This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted November 16, 2012 11:15 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:17, 16 Nov 2012.

Quote:
Anyway,judging by your standpoint, it is hardly fair to say that it was a bad idea to create a state where a whole ethnicity could exist or co exist. Without Israel, there would probably be no Jewish state and a place for all Jews to call "home".

Is it fair to decide upon the path of millions of people?


Ask those who created Israel.

Quote:
Well, the only problem is that the Muslims are living in the middle ages and one can never find a compromise with such people.
But then, the only people that can help them are themselves.
This reminds me of natural selection so much. The dumb side gets eradicated and actiually, its not that much of a bad thing. If this thing went global, we would have no such thing as Islam.
At this point I really understand why genocide is not actually just human nature, its actually natural selection on a grand scale.
I also cant actually blame the arabs in the 6 day war. Why negotiane when you can take everything.


While you may go around preaching holocaust for Arabs because you don't like them, I don't think that making concentration camps is the solution.

The ideal way would be to separate Arabs from Israeli upon the creation of Israel. Yup, own country for Palestinians. That's why I think it was a major screw-up in the first place. It was painfully obvious from the very beginning that those two ethnic groups cannot co-exist. Putting them together in one country was the dumbest thing ever.
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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 12:01 PM

Quote:
The ideal way would be to separate Arabs from Israeli upon the creation of Israel.

That was the plan. In 1948 the UN announced the creation of two separate states in the land of Palestine - one Jewish and one Arabic. Then the Arabs decided that it isn't enough and attacked the newly formed Jewish state both from inside and outside. The war that followed is known as the Israeli Independence War. There has been a lot of hostile actions between Israel and its neighbors since then. One of them is known as the Six Day War. That was when Israel got intelligence that Egypt is massing troops along the border, preparing to invade and launched a preemptive strike instead. As a result Israel conquered quite of a lot of land, creating what is now known as the Green Line - Israel's border before the Six Day War. From Egypt Israel conquered the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Thanks to a long series of negotiations and the courage of Sadat and Begin, Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty. No one really wanted the Gaza Strip which was a poor and unimportant district. And things went downhill from there.
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GunFred
GunFred


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posted November 16, 2012 01:54 PM

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4&feature=g-user-u]Israel and Hamas Gaza Strikes: The 'Collateral Damage' [/url]

Try watching this clip and say that the israelites are the good guys.
It is hard to not be a racists when all you see in the middleast is...

Muslims who follow their insane believes blindly. And jews seems to either have forgotten what happened to them during WW2 or adopted nazi mentality. Israel is one of the biggest mistakes in modern history but what is done is done and wiping out Israel is obviously far out of the question. The palestinians need their own government and country that admits that Israel is there to stay so that they can fight themselves or not at all. Israel needs a new non-imperialistic, non-expansionist government and policy. They should also take a look on their own radicals that to me do not seem any ideologically better than muslim radicals.
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xerox
xerox


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posted November 16, 2012 01:58 PM
Edited by xerox at 16:02, 16 Nov 2012.

Yeah, people shouldn't forget that Israel is actually ruled by one of those really conservative, nationalist/zionist (Israel is our sacred land... bla bla bla) parties that we are concerned about in Europe. I'm not even sure if there is an ideological will to give the Palestinians back their occupied ground.
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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 03:27 PM

@GunFred
Nice video. Too bad he's biased as hell. I'll admit I didn't even hear about the Palestinian children getting killed, because I haven't been following the news at the time, so I can't comment on that. What I can comment on is the claim that Israel broke the cease fire that Egypt has organized by killing Jabari (I hope I spelled that correctly). So here's my comment: bullcrap. There has been a few hundreds of rockets fired fired into Israel in the days before the IDF hit back and started the current operation.

And any claim that Israel is killing civilians just like Hamas and other terrorist groups do is outrageous. Israel goes out of its way to keep the civilian casualties to minimum while attacking Hamas warehouses situated near schools, mosques and other civilian targets. While Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the rest just fires into cities with no military targets in sight.

This also connects to what the man said later: that the Brits have double standards when they say that Israel has the right to defend itself and Hamas doesn't. Tell me this: How exactly is Hamas defending itself? Israel is defending itself by destroying military targets such as firing sites and ammunition warehouses, thus crippling Hamas' ability to strike. But how exactly killing and terrorizing Israeli civilians helps Hamas protect itself? I mean, not only doesn't it cripple Israel's military capabilities, it actually improves Israel's political state because it gives them the legitimation to strike back. Hamas is firing to defend itself? I don't think so.

He talks for a while about the dead Palestinian child. It is indeed an enormous tragedy by any standards. But what about the Israeli children? He mentioned that three Israelis died from the attacks. But he didn't show the picture of the Israeli child covered in blood after a rocket exploded not far from him. He didn't show the footages of Israeli children running to safety several times a day. day in and day out waaay before this operation started. I won't post any of this either, because most of it is not easy to watch. But since he mentioned BBC I will post this:



He also mentioned that Israel fires from Tel Aviv. I guess he knows more than me. And I'm a part of the Israeli military.

Diplomatic solutions? Going to the UN and asking to recognize Palestine as a state without first sitting down and talking is not really a solution. A real solution involves both sides.

@xerox
What did I say about throwing slogans without backing them up?
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GunFred
GunFred


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posted November 16, 2012 04:24 PM

If somebody slapped me on the cheek then I would, unlike Jesus, slap him back harder. However, Israel is many times stronger and slaps much harder so of course Hamas is going to use dirty tricks. If Hamas fought on Israels conditions then they would lose everything within a week and they want to win no matter what right? If the roles were reversed, the israelites would no doubt call themselves freedom fighters while doing exactly what terrorists are doing. And Hamas are defending/retaliating from israelite expansion. Israels warmongering government would love a chance to crush the palestinian people so that they can create their powerful jewish nation. Palestinian hatred, pride and ideology ensures that they will never lay down their weapons first and give in. Israel also would never support a palestinian state even if it could bring peace. A independent Palestine would be much harder to trample rightously.

I found those pictures of palestinian propaganda a bit funny since the "dead" man looked like a bearded version of Cenk from the video I posted.
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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 04:38 PM

Using dirty tricks? Sabotaging is dirty tricks. Sending spies is dirty tricks. Dressing as a civilian in order to take the soldiers by surprise and kill them is a dirty trick. Targeting civilians is just immoral no matter how you look at it. I don't know how you define "freedom fighters", but to me anyone who does that is a terrorist.
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xerox
xerox


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posted November 16, 2012 04:47 PM
Edited by xerox at 16:49, 16 Nov 2012.

Cause you know, it's not like Mossad has ever spied, assassinated, sabotaged or anything like that lol.

Let's look a bit at the Gaza War.
Palestinian deaths: Over 1300.
Israeli casualties: 13.
Now that looks all fair and proportional!

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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 04:52 PM

I never said I'm against dirty play. It's the immoral targeting of civilians that I have a problem with.
As for the death comparison, I never understood its meaning. For one, the bigger part of Palestinian casualties are militants. And moreover, should Israel apologize for knowing how to defend its citizens and keep them out of harm's way, rather than use them as a meat shield?
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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted November 16, 2012 04:54 PM

Recommended read for everyone.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted November 16, 2012 05:07 PM


Quote:

While you may go around preaching holocaust for Arabs because you don't like them, I don't think that making concentration camps is the solution.


Actually, arabs are responsible for the situation in palestine and 90% of all the other conflicts in Middle Earth. I just find it really annoying when people accuse Israel when in fact its the arabs that are the major reason for conflict.
More arabs die by the hand of their own actions than from anything else. Its just that the world does not care when some 50 people die from a Shia or Sunni car bomb, its only bad when Nato,Israel, Sammy and Timmy does it.

Quote:

The ideal way would be to separate Arabs from Israeli upon the creation of Israel.


And what do you think those giant concrete walls in Jerusalem are?
The ideal way to solve this issue would be a extra-dimensional barrier that seperates realities between the two parties.
Since that is not possible, a radioactive wall would work aswell.

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GunFred
GunFred


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posted November 16, 2012 05:13 PM

Quote:
Recommended read for everyone.


Looks like a smart book that many in the middleast could benefit from.

The terrorists can not attack Israeli military forces without being destroyed themselves. Not that they mind throwing their lives away but their cause will die too. They do not have many choices but to attack civilians.

Attack israeli forces = Complete defeat
Diplomatic compromise = Jews and muslims do not seem to get along for some reason
Target israeli civilians = Revenge satisfaction that proves you are not weak and easy prey
Surrender completly = Complete loss of dignity and everlasting frustration

If someone killed my family I would certainly want to inflict as much pain as possible on the killer even if my victims were innocent and the police took me.
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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 05:19 PM

Guess that's the difference between you and me. I would seek justice rather than revenge.
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GunFred
GunFred


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posted November 16, 2012 05:46 PM

Do not get me wrong. I am not a bloodthirsty killer and have never been in any serious violent situations in my life but I can imagine the frustrating feeling of not being able to strike back. As a swede, I feel a bit frustrated knowing that Breiviks lives in a comfortable cell after what he did to my neighbour country. I do not ever want to feel the level of frustration that I imagine that the norwegian victims feel knowing Breiviks fate. Unlike Osama, Breivik did not get what he deserved.


I do not think it would be justice to ignore the many faults that lie with Israel in this horrible conflict. The reason I am especially hard on Israel right now is not because I dislikes jews more than muslims. I just get the impression that people believe that Israel is just defending themselves and that the palestinians are just regular muslim terrorists that hate everyone. I am on nobodies side. Diplomacy is definitly screwed if Israel will never try to understand the palestinians and palestinians keep following hot-blooded militiamen and not calming down the terror and hate.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


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Manifest
posted November 16, 2012 06:45 PM

Quote:
Guess that's the difference between you and me. I would seek justice rather than revenge.


?
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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 07:40 PM


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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 07:45 PM

I'm sorry, but too much unnecessary fights have been started due to misunderstandings and I'm not about to guess what exactly you meant by that question mark. When you feel like communicating properly let me know and I'll be glad to respond.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted November 16, 2012 09:00 PM

Quote:
And any claim that Israel is killing civilians just like Hamas and other terrorist groups do is outrageous. Israel goes out of its way to keep the civilian casualties to minimum while attacking Hamas warehouses situated near schools, mosques and other civilian targets. While Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the rest just fires into cities with no military targets in sight.

Quote:
I never said I'm against dirty play. It's the immoral targeting of civilians that I have a problem with.
Geny, I've said it before but I guess it needs to be repeated - when it comes to this particular conflict you have the habit to mix arguments with moralization in a quite selective manner so they can fit you "neutral" position which for some reason looks awfully pro-Israeli, no matter what you claim.
So, do you honestly think that the Israeli military - the high command at least - wants to reduce the civilian casualties (you might want to back these claims with some solid information by the way) because they are moral? And Hamas attacks civilians on regular basis because they are immoral? Bollocks - every civilian killed by the Israeli means another potential militant, suicide bomber or simply supporter for the radical anti-Israeli groups because, you know, these corpses usually have families, friends and so on and the living tend to become quite irrational (you might call it "immoral") when someone close to them gets hurt or killed. On the other hand the Western countries or at the very least the majority of their populations make a body count after every Israeli operation and start to press their governments to reduce or stop the support for Israel. That is what matters for the Israeli at the end of the day and not if they are "moral" or not.
As for Hamas - call them whatever you like (and I have no love for them either but that's totally irrelevant) but it's a fact that if you can't oppose the numbers and Star Wars armament of the enemy, you have to figure out another way to oppose him and given that this is a war, pure and simple, involving morality is simply ridiculous. Do you know a single historical case of a "moral war" where the two sides are killing each other in a gentlemanly manner (watch it, there's a trap in this question)? Other than that - what would a vastly outnumbered and outgunned pseudo-guerilla force that has no regular army support in sight gain if it attempts to attack only the strictly military targets of the enemy apart from committing a certain suicide? It is obvious as hell that they won't achieve anything from a strategic perspective, so what's left? Just face it, the terrorism is the mainstream response of the weak against the traditional brute force of the strong and that's that. Sort of a grim "you asked for it".

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Geny
Geny


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What if Elvin was female?
posted November 16, 2012 10:24 PM

Just for the record, I never claimed to be neutral. I'm Israeli, I can't be neutral by default. What I am, or at least what I'm trying to be is reasonable.

There used "moral" wars a long time ago. Wars when armies met in the field, had their fun and the winner took control of the loser's territory. Unfortunately, those days are long gone. Which is why the Geneva convention took place, to put in some guidelines about how to conduct a war.

Back to us. I can't speak for anyone, so I'll speak for myself. I'm an officer in the IDF and I don't want any civilian casualties on both side. I know I'm not the only one that feels that way. I also know that there are those who think that all Palestinians are terrorists. And of course there are those who just don't care. I have no way of knowing what the higher ups think. You don't like the word "moral"? Fine by me. Actions speak louder than words anyway. And whatever the reasons are, Israel's actions are much more... conventional? Is that a good enough word?

And no matter what you all say about guerrilla groups not having anything else to do, I just can't get into my head how killing innocent civilians helps their cause. Btw, partizans in the WW2 and the Vietcong were guerrilla armies as well and to the best of my knowledge they did quite fine strike at the opposing military only.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted November 16, 2012 10:38 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 22:39, 16 Nov 2012.

I'm pretty sure that's because the only target in their reach was the opposing military
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