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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Rockets, airstrikes reignite Mideast conflict
Thread: Rockets, airstrikes reignite Mideast conflict This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted November 17, 2012 07:22 PM

Where did you get the impression that I have leftist extremist beliefs? You better not mean that I support full gender equality or that I think that people should earn what they deserve or that people should take care of each other rather than letting each other die. If you do, then I am going to get angry and call you a fascist muslim. You would not find a single swedish right wing party that is against any of those beliefs.

It is strange how a person from Kosovo would not understand the palestinians wish for their own state. I would bet a lot of money on that a huge majority of swedes would support Kosovo independence.

I have grown up with swedish media, they are much better than most other media when it comes to unbiased truth. I am not ideologically brainwashed and I do not believe anything of major importance because somebody repeatably told me so. Unfortunalty I can only give you my word as a swede and as a free individual. If you refuse to trust me then there is nothing I can do.

Islamophobia, anti-semitism or any other hate for other groups will surely corrupt you. Remember Germany before WW2. The germans were corrupted by anti-semitism even though the germans as a people were never truly evil. Let the law deal with bad people wether they be muslim or not.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted November 17, 2012 08:04 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 20:17, 17 Nov 2012.

Quote:
Where did you get the impression that I have leftist extremist beliefs?



I edited my text and I removed the parts with "extremist". I dont mean that you are a leftist extremist. I just think that you are wrong when it comes to your argument that sweedsih media is neutral or not biased.

Quote:

If you do, then I am going to get angry and call you a fascist muslim.


Well, go ahead. I  would improbably turn out to be a "marvelous"  muslim adherent.


Quote:

It is strange how a person from Kosovo would not understand the palestinians wish for their own state. I would bet a lot of money on that a huge majority of swedes would support Kosovo independence.


Palestinians dont want independence, they want anhilliation of Israel and Jihad. I have never seen or heard about Palestinians wanting peace or independence(From what?). They need a state and they cant even agree on forming a state because the sight of israel makes their honor and pride go away.

The palestinians wasted their chance and still adhere to violence. They can either learn and try again to "Co operate" or starve.
I dont think they will ever change behavior or tolerate Israel not unless they change beliefs or try to do something about their situation. Of course Israel is not completely without faults, but they have a good reason to do what they usually do. Many reason on what they are doing can also be attributed to conspiracy hypotheses.
The perpetual war actually gains israel alot of funds from the US and allows Jews to support whatever action the Israeli state orders. Afterall, every Israeli is dependent on their military and therefore their state.
I wonder how people react about criticism towards the state. Probably, people, the state and the media in israel shuns any critic for not supporting their military. Of course, I can be wrong but it would be interesting if it was true.

As for the comparison with Kosovo, Kosovo is a more complicated issue than Israel or Palestine. I dont think its even appropriate to compare these two. But just like Israel and the beloved palestinians, its an issue of territorial dispute, "historic-nationalistic pride" and political hogwash.

Quote:

I have grown up with swedish media, they are much better than most other media when it comes to unbiased truth.


And the same thing some Russian could claim about RT, or some German about ProSieben(if it exists) and so on.
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GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted November 17, 2012 08:23 PM
Edited by GunFred at 20:27, 17 Nov 2012.

Swedish politicians, media or religion never tells us what to do or believe. I have never heard any kind of swedish authority tell me that Israel is bad and that palestinians are freedom fighters. They tell me that rockets fired from Gaza killed a certain number of israeli people and israeli retaliation killed a certain number of palestinians. There is very little room for personal oppinion in swedish media and when swedes hear about the horrible things that goes on in the world they think with pity how awful it must be for the victims.

Here are a few examples of attitude differences.
Awesome US ARMY Recruiting Commercial
American Vs Swedish Recruitment Ads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AprqomTW-Wo : Swedish Recruitment Ad "Welcome to Our Reality"

I will not call you a fascist muslim since you changed the exremist part. Name calling is not my thing anyway. My thing is to verbally reverse peoples gender or sexuality despite my radical left views on homo tolerance and gender equality.

I am sure that most palestinians would rethink their ways a bit if promised their own independant state in return for acknowledgement of Israel and peace. A palestinian state made with the agreement of Israel would be a very nice peace agreement and if that palestinian state dared to attack Israel without serious provocation, then nothing in the world would stop Israel from retaliating to its heart's content.
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted November 17, 2012 09:36 PM

Do prey tell prior to last wensday what prevoked a day by day attack? What prevoked shalits kiddnapping?

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 17, 2012 10:23 PM

The reason I called Swedish media biased was because I read this article written by a Swede once. I'll be very happy to hear that he was exaggerating.

As for this:
Quote:
I am sure that most palestinians would rethink their ways a bit if promised their own independant state in return for acknowledgement of Israel and peace.

When Netanyahu just got elected he made what is here known as the Bar-Ilan speech. In it he talked about the two state for two nations solution. Only the problem was, that Palestine didn't really accept this as they still refused to admit in Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.


Oh and one more thing. Back to the current situation. After I wrote my last post I thought about it a while longer. And this is what I thought about: I'll grant you and the guy from the vids, that the timing of the operation looks suspicious. There are no evidence that the operation was triggered by upcoming elections, but the logic is sound. So as much as I don't like this theory, I must agree with you that it is a distinct possibility. However, I wonder if there's one more thing that we can agree on. The thing being that regardless of the motives behind the timing of the current operation, its actual target has nothing to do with one politician or another. The target of the operation is just what it seems - to bring peace and quite to the southern cities of Israel. If we can agree on that, it would be a start.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 17, 2012 10:46 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:50, 17 Nov 2012.

So why does Israel need to be recongnized as a JEWISH state? That's obviously not going to work when it sits on ground that's important to a lot of different peoplee and not just jews. Israel should be a multicultural state. Looks like we could have been a step closer to peace by just ignoring a single word.

As for Swedish media bias, the latest headline in our largest newspaper says: "LIKE A HORROR MOVIE - Israel has made over 300 aerial assaults against Gaza. Suha, 18: "It's a miracle we're still alive."

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 17, 2012 10:54 PM

Why does Sweden has to be a Swedish state? Maybe it should be multicultural? You've got enough Arabs and Muslims over to turn Sweden into a multicultural state, right?

And as for the headline - it doesn't strike as odd that it mentions the hundreds of missiles fired into Gaza, but not the hundreds of rockets fired into Israel?
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 17, 2012 10:59 PM
Edited by xerox at 23:02, 17 Nov 2012.

Sweden is multicultural by its constitution. Those who want it to be swedish are labelled as racists.

Now I'm not saying that I think it's right for those people to be called racists or that I find the current media headlines to be objective in any way.

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 17, 2012 11:02 PM

Either you've changed over the years and I haven't noticed or I'm just confused. So, you've got no problem with Muslims being a large part of your country and your culture?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted November 17, 2012 11:05 PM

Quote:
Just for the record, I never claimed to be neutral.
I think you did claim something like that in the previous thread on the matter though I have to check to be certain - not that it really matters anyway.
Quote:
There used "moral" wars a long time ago. Wars when armies met in the field, had their fun and the winner took control of the loser's territory.
Yes, and what happened after that? I've no idea where people get this romantic idea about the wars from. A marching army on its way to the enemy army would burn and pillage pretty much everything on its path, provided only that it's on enemy territory and it won't slow it down or otherwise affect its strategic performance - that's how it is since the ancient times. Among other things, that mean extra supplies for the army which burns and pillages, forced expulsion of the local population from its land and so on. Psychological warfare aimed at frightening the opponent by commiting acts of extreme violence exists at least since the times of the Assyrians and it's hardly necessary the targets to be soldiers only. War has never been "moral", just drop that.
Quote:
Btw, partizans in the WW2 and the Vietcong were guerrilla armies as well and to the best of my knowledge they did quite fine strike at the opposing military only.
Not entirely true but mostly yes. There's quite a serious difference between opposing a foreign invader which has only military goals on your land (the politics in both cases had little to do with the attacked nations, you know that very well) and fighting over a piece of land to which to peoples have strong ties and consider theirs.
Quote:
And whatever the reasons are, Israel's actions are much more... conventional? Is that a good enough word?
Israel has the means to lead conventional, modern warfare, Hamas doesn't. I'll say it again - I don't like them, their tactic will achieve nothing serious, their chosen methods are unacceptable (to say the least) and they don't seem to have any real goal in mind apart from shooting at the Israeli towns as long as they have ammo - however you can't really expect them to be "conventional" when they won't be able to stand against the Israeli army for more than a few hours in a regular battle.
Quote:
you mistake first is to think of hamas as ligitimite goverment.
I'm not sure if this is directed at me but no - I don't consider Hamas a legitimate govornment. Like I already said, I consider them a problematic group which is an obstacle before the peace efforts.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 17, 2012 11:21 PM
Edited by xerox at 23:25, 17 Nov 2012.

Quote:
Either you've changed over the years and I haven't noticed or I'm just confused. So, you've got no problem with Muslims being a large part of your country and your culture?


Yeah, I dropped the nationalist thing completly a while ago and became a social libertarian instead. Which is pretty much the opposite of what I used to be when it comes to multicultural issues. =P
I still see a lot of problems that are being fueled by immigration though, but I'm convinced that under the right conditions, that fuel can be used to power something great instead.

When I think about, I'm a real flip flopper when it comes to politics. I started out as a communist, became a nationalist and now I'm an active social liberal/libertarian.                              
Am I going to be an anarcho-capitalist or something crazy like that in a year?

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 17, 2012 11:25 PM

I guess you're looking into the future then. Good for you. I mean it. But for now, many Jews want a place to call home. A place where part of their culture is incorporated in laws, like national holidays. A place where Hebrew is the official language. A place they could really connect with.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 17, 2012 11:33 PM

Swedes celebrate christmas, easter, midsummer and all those traditional holidays while being a multicultural country at the same time. I don't see why Israel wouldn't be able to do the same thing. When so many different cultures consider Israel important, it makes little sense to limit it to one group of people.


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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted November 17, 2012 11:40 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 23:45, 17 Nov 2012.

Quote:
I don't see why Israel wouldn't be able to do the same thing.


Here is a better question, why should they? If they want a 100% jewish state with no immigrants, the population agrees with such a policy and they have the military power to prevent any type of illegal traficking, they can do it.

Israel probably the only completely sovereign state in the planet when it comes to these issues.

Quote:

When so many different cultures consider Israel important, it makes little sense to limit it to one group of people.


It makes sense because only one of those cultures has to survive and live there. Sure, there are muslims aswell, but only few muslims want to accept israel as a state. They would not deserve to live in a nation they dont accept to exist eitherway.

They got the guns, they got the right to exist and they make the rules of who comes in.
It might not be so "Democratic" but that is actually a necessicty with people who can be suicide bombers and worse. Also, its a nice to see a state that does not allow others to snow around with it.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 17, 2012 11:45 PM
Edited by xerox at 23:46, 17 Nov 2012.

Quote:
Here is a better question, why should they?


Because not being hated by pretty much all of their neighbours, some of them militant, might be beneficial to them in the long-run?

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted November 17, 2012 11:56 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 23:59, 17 Nov 2012.

Quote:
Quote:
Here is a better question, why should they?


Because not being hated by pretty much all their neighbours, some of them militant, might be beneficial to them in the long-run?


Their neighbours want to kill and hate israel in anycase. No matter what they would do, they just want to have israel gone.
There is no need for dialogue when you have the mightiest military in the middle east and the ones who threaten to attack israel have useless technology.
I mean, why talk anyway? Its the arabs who have to talk, not israel.
Israel is powerful enough to do whatever it wants in the region.
Also, Israel is an unofficial nuclear state. If egypt or any other power in the area became too much to handle, they could always nuke them.
S again, why does israel has to compromise when in reality its neighburs should talk and compromise.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 18, 2012 12:03 AM

Of course all parts need to be involved if there is to be peace and stability in the region. I don't think having Israel go all "SHUT UP OR WE NUKE YOU" would contribute to that.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted November 18, 2012 12:09 AM

Quote:
Of course all parts need to be involved if there is to be peace and stability in the region. I don't think having Israel go all "SHUT UP OR WE NUKE YOU" would contribute to that.


Israel can do the "SHUT UP OR WE NUKE YOU" because they can. Might makes right but then, how can you talk peace when you have a bunch of islamic leaders with the views of this guy and this guy.
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted November 18, 2012 12:14 AM
Edited by antipaladin at 00:15, 18 Nov 2012.

israel have done anything within reasonble bounds for peace ie in peace sign of egypt the semi island of sinai was given back, israel country is very small yet very powerfull. It agrees on trade who'mever wants too. i dont think it is a nessity to continue unless no one wants too, i mean we said okay lets be frindes, they like no,GTFO,were like why not, they like you jews we dont care we dont want to you exist. were like okay, they like we shoot you,were like you shoot us? we shoot your entire land couse we carry more gunfire they like look israel is bully.. does this sums up for you all? since day one arabs dissagree to our right to exist. we did not dissagree to they'res. maybe we should now would it make us evil? nope, slightly lawfull atbest.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 18, 2012 12:16 AM

Quote:
Here is a better question, why should they? If they want a 100% jewish state with no immigrants, the population agrees with such a policy and they have the military power to prevent any type of illegal traficking, they can do it.
Obviously they have the power to do it, but they still shouldn't. Zionism is racist, and harmful to both Jews and non-Jews.
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