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Geny
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posted October 24, 2015 01:14 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 13:15, 24 Oct 2015.
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@Salamandre
a)I don't know that. Death statistics? What death statistics? In wars? That's like saying that the US and other coalition countries wanted to exterminate the Iraqis in the Gulf War. Just because there are casualties in a war, does not mean a full extermination of the nation is its goal.
b)True. But like I said, the last time Israel tried to do something like that and leave Gaza it only got more rockets out of it. With all due respect to the international law in general, some cases should be judged in particular because of their complexity. There is no reason to give the other side more efficient ways to kill you. Especially without getting anything in return.
Quote:
you mean stop stealing = give something?
How about stop stealing = stop killing? Because I would gladly settle for that.
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Salamandre
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posted October 24, 2015 01:44 PM |
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Exactly what I've told. You consider that the stolen land is de facto acquired, and palestiniens should be happy to start negotiating from this point.
Geny said:
That's like saying that the US and other coalition countries wanted to exterminate the Iraqis in the Gulf War.
Yes, and this is what they did, all done based on lies and public opinion manipulation. Half million civil deaths, then as result a sovereign country sent back to medieval times, all region destabilized, a great nursery place for organizations as ISIS. You can exterminate a people by both gas chambers or starvation, the result is same, but less noticeable in time.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 24, 2015 01:48 PM |
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@kayna
Quote:
While I don't agree with such tactics, people need to understand that people fight with what they've got.
Well, if that's how you want to look at it, then people also need to understand that people fight against what they've got. When your enemy uses a human shield the only way to get to them is to break through that shield. If I was a 6 foot tall muscular guy and someone would bring a knife to our fight, I wouldn't fight bare-handed either.
What I hate most about these kind of discussions is that people tend to think they know how I think better than I do myself. I'm an Israeli. I have no intentions of grabbing as much land as I possibly can. I have no intention of wiping out the Palestinians. Sure, there are people who think that way. Even some people in the government think along those lines. But that does not represent Israel as an entity.
First, isolated terrorist? That was a Hezbollah attack and no one, including the Hezbollah denies that. And the retaliation was indeed harsh. And then there was peace. A very long peace. If someone attacks me, I would prefer to make certain he would not want to do that again.
Second, never admit they're wrong? Really? Do you have any idea how many different political parties are in Israel? Do you know how many criticism is thrown around here in all directions on a daily basis? EVERYONE in Israel is wrong if you ask the right people.
As for brainwashing, I have pondered on that matter myself many times. Can I really trust everything I'm taught here? I tend to take things with a grain of salt, because some of them sound ridiculous. But maybe that isn't enough. Maybe I really was brainwashed and history is not what I know. Then again, why are you so sure you know all the facts? Where did you get your truth? In the media? Because one thing I know for sure - the media always perverts the truth. I've seen it many times.
Third, What rifles? Their personal guns? Not everyone has them, and they don't use them all that often. Evacuated buildings? If the settlers used evacuated buildings, there would be no international uproar about building in the settlements, would there? Fertile land? Much of the land in Israel is fertile because Jews who came here made it such by clearing swamps and irrigating the land.
Fourth, that I actually agree on. I have seen a slight rise in actions taken against Jewish terrorists and agitators, but it still isn't enough.
Fifth, I would like to know how you know what is needed and not needed to the IDF. I am part of it and even I don't know most things, because I'm not supposed to. Most of this point is just pure speculation on your part.
Sixth, What important locations were blocked to Palestinians because of the walls?
Seventh and Eighth, yes there is a serious blockade on Gaza. The blockade is there to lessen as much as possible the entry of military supplies to Gaza. There is a lot of food and medical supplies going through on a regular basis, as well as other supplies. Some of those, might I add, are still used in improving the military infrastructure instead of the well being of Gaza citizens.
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fred79
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posted October 24, 2015 01:51 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Geny said:
That's like saying that the US and other coalition countries wanted to exterminate the Iraqis in the Gulf War.
Yes, and this is what they did, all done based on lies and public opinion manipulation. Half million civil deaths, then as result a country sent to medieval times, all region destabilized, a great nursery place for organizations as ISIS.
the gulf war wasn't about extermination, just about subduing the populace to end the war there. i think you're referring to the iraq war, which was different(but still, not about extermination). if we meant to actually exterminate a country, especially a poor country like iraq, we damn well could have.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 24, 2015 01:52 PM |
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@Salamandre
I'm sorry, I don't think I understand. Stealing land is bad and the land should be returned before any negotiations begin, but killing people can go and be part of the negotiations. I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant, but that's what it sounded like to me.
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Salamandre
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posted October 24, 2015 01:55 PM |
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Eh, don't start me about US reasons to start wars. US is not the solution to Middle East, US is the problem.
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fred79
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posted October 24, 2015 02:01 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 14:04, 24 Oct 2015.
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Salamandre said:
Eh, don't start me about US reasons to start wars. US is not the solution to Middle East, US is the problem.
lol, the problem? surely you jest. we don't help, most certainly(not with the iraq war; but we DID help with the gulf war). but stating that the u.s. are the problem with the middle east is unequivocal nonsense.
i mean, seriously. "what is this i don't even", and yadda yadda yadda. 
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 24, 2015 03:18 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 16:30, 24 Oct 2015.
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First : well, we both admit the same thing, merely have a different take on what should be done. If I was head of a country, I wouldn't go to war over the death of 2 soldiers, but ok. We have a different view of the same thing, and at least we admit the same thing. let's scratch that one out.
Second : Yes, sorry, I was generally speaking. I know there are individuals that knows it's mostly wrong. But when we look at every hateful Netanyahu speech, we can still say that the ones governing Israel are part of my generalization. We can scratch that one out as well.
Third : you, once again, have a different take of the same thing. If we both admit the existence of the same thing, at least, then it's enough for me. Let's scratch that one out.
Fourth : Again, we agree. This time, we have the same take as well. Allright! scratch that one out too.
Fifth : I've seen that in a video before and it seemed to be the truth. I can't find it now, it's been years. Maybe I'll edit that part later if I ever find the video.
Sixth : Walls ( and now bridges! ) are more than just walls. They are a demoralizing effect. Palestinians look at it and thinks "If only they could use one tenth of the resources to help us in a positive way instead." Yes, one can walk around a wall. Not your best argument to be honest lol. But sorry, I forgot to write that part down earlier. It's a morale crushing move more than actual protection. It is a daily psychological attack for the Palestinians. We can scratch that one out too.
Seventh and eight: Once again, you do admit it's existence, only have a different take. Of course they prevent military resources to get it. I won't deny what you say. Just don't deny what I say either ; they also prevent other harmless goods from getting in when they're not happy with Gaza. It's like sanctions. Example : Yesterday, one of your guys stabbed one of ours. Today, all of you aren't getting any commercial trucks in. I believe we can scratch that one as well.
If I ever find that video, I'll post it. It seems we do acknowledge most of the crap going on there, even if we have different takes on it. Although I'd like to hear from your mouth if you or any of your buddies ever had to station in a home full of Palestinians once.
I'll be honest with you, I have trouble taking soldiers' words as a reliable source of information. There is a difference between soldiers and average people like me. Me, I'm a pointless and inconsequential citizen. I can change my opinion about anything, and it doesn't matter because I don't have a personal stake in political situations. Someone can argue a bunch of logical arguments about something with me and I might change opinions. But for a soldier, changing opinion about anything related to their job is more than a change of opinion ; it can potentially even be an admission of guilt, it can open the door to remorse ( which can eat you from the inside ) and it can also mean death, because when bullets are flying, you need to be focused on the task at hand. It's why we very rarely see a soldier changing opinions about anything war related. People aren't gonna walk up to a soldier and say "I'm sorry, you've seen some of your friends die, you had to shoot some guys, and I think it was a mistake", nor will soldiers ever think that. People will just shut up and walk by ; soldiers will write it off as a necessary evil and move on. I won't say they are more biased than the average people, but I'd say their bias has one of the strongest grip on them, akin to religious fanaticism.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted October 24, 2015 05:05 PM |
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Salamandre said:
US is the problem.
No Sal, the USA is not THE Problem...it has been one of many. It has been fuel for a fire (oil) that already exists.
@ All
Any country that becomes involved in this long-lived solution/injustice (the creation of Israel) depending on your point of view becomes the enemy, to one side or the other or to both.
Part of my Heritage is American Indian and few sensible people would deny Europe stole the land from ALL the tribes, to then steal people from Africa to utilize it. What is always in the headlines today? The latter, not the former. The latter was horrible but pales in comparison to the slaughter of many peoples and theft of their lands.
The problem is today, there is no way to undo that horrible wrong; handing us Casinos to sell their Firewater is not exactly justice.<imo> this applies to this conflict.
However, the Palestinians are dealing with an issue that is not centuries old but exists in living memory of recent generations. I do not condone any violence but then again I've not had my home taken from me. I can guarantee you one thing though, I would not have been wearing blue at the Little Big Horn, I'd just been one more dead Indian.
The problem began when the Colonial Power Britain thought it had a solution for another terrible injustice and the problems began immediately. As the saying goes; "Two wrongs will not make a right."
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Elodin
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posted October 24, 2015 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:26, 24 Oct 2015.
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Salamandre said:
Eh, don't start me about US reasons to start wars. US is not the solution to Middle East, US is the problem.
The primary problem in the Middle East and which is spreading throughout the world is the existence of radical Islam. Muslims who believe everyone should convert to their particular understanding of Islam or be murdered.
The secondary problem is the reluctance of more civilized peoples to stand against radical Islam. Preserving civilization requires taking the battle to those who would destroy it. Hiding behind wall's and hand-wringing inevitably results in defeat.
Thirdly, political correctness kills.
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Corribus
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posted October 25, 2015 01:10 AM |
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What causes radical Islam?
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fred79
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posted October 25, 2015 04:02 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 04:48, 25 Oct 2015.
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Corribus said:
What causes radical Islam?
that's a good question, and one i've wondered myself. it can't be just the western world that pisses muslim extremists off so much(the people i'm seeing killed by isis seem to be of middle-eastern descent). the middle east has always been a hot zone because of the cross of religions there(and if i'm not mistaken, it's where these religions originated?), long before americans and others got themselves involved in recent history.
so i too, would like the answer to this question. i can guess that it is a clash of cultures, and some people(from all cultures) take their standpoints far more serious than they ever should(extremists come from all kinds of standpoints; and not just muslim). but i don't think terrorists are on their own with their behavior. if you think about it, much of the western world got to where they were by using hostile takeovers. it just seems that some people were a little late, and are trying to make up for lost centuries.
not that i'm sympathetic towards any radical cause possibly involving territory; it's a round world, last i checked. sure, their hatred can be blamed on interventions into their culture/trying to get a foothold on the oil industry and whatnot, but if that was solely what was driving them, then they wouldn't be killing what seems like their own kind in mass numbers.
is it because the people they are killing are christians or jews? or did they identify these people as those who helped foreigners when they occupied their "territory"? i'm curious as to the reasoning behind the murders that are forever being posted online, myself. recently, they've been getting slow-motion camera's to record these murders, with high-rez quality. it's a weird mentality to ponder, when you try to see what they are driving at. it just seems like a blind hatred.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 25, 2015 05:32 AM |
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Edited by Kayna at 05:39, 25 Oct 2015.
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I don't like the term "radical Islam", and we should only speak of what idea and action is radical. Genital mutilation, child marriage, death penalty to small crime, burka's on women, etc, they're all radical actions based mostly on customs that are taught from generation to generation and accepted as the norm by a bunch of people.
What "causes" radical Islam? I suppose the ideology is already there, and we can worsen it by stirring the hornet's nest by treating them like snow with invasions and such. Worsening an already existing problem is the Western way. Yes, yes, the problem was already there. Yes, I know.
The best solution would be to educate kids and wait 3 generations. If that doesn't work, I suppose violence might be the only solution. If it takes 1 000 years for certain hardcore parts of the world to get rid of their radical ideology that they forcefully apply on millions of innocent people, I wouldn't be against rounding them all up somewhere and cremate them once and for all ( if they're willing to die to apply their radicalism on others ). If it only takes them 75 years though, I'd rather wait.
I agree that the whole educated world should get together and bring equality to all, perhaps under a world wide government that would force everyone to live under The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but I wouldn't speak like the USA actually wants to help them. They're just there to survey their own self interests, and use their invisible hand and spying skill to spark as many conflict as possible to keep them as busy and poor for as long as possible.
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Zenofex
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posted October 25, 2015 05:55 AM |
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Historically radical Islam appeared as a result of the European colonial/protectorate government in the Middle East, back then the US were still unsure whether they want to be a big international player. So yeah, you can say for example "The Brits started it!" and you'll be right, kind of. Nowadays however radical Islam is literally tolerated by all Great Powers, including the US. The most mindlessly fanatical sects don't hail from the biggest problem for the free democratic candyland (until recently), Iran, but from Saudi Arabia, a country which receives so little international condemnation for its role as a cradle of Islamic religious fundamentalism that many people even forget that it exists. The reasons are oil and geopolitics. The Saudis are good boys (when they don't show on the TV, i.e. almost all the time). The free democratic world doesn't mind the Wahhabist and their kin. They're useful, among other things. What amazes me is that many people seem to think that the US and their allies are actually fighting ISIS and the other "monsters" while they do absolutely nothing to cut the terrorists' financing, a big part of which comes from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other "good" Muslim countries. Not to mention that everybody readily buys the black market oil, "produced" by ISIS.
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Minion
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posted October 25, 2015 02:05 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 14:06, 25 Oct 2015.
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Tony Blair acknowledged that there are "elements of truth" in the view that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was the principle cause of the rise of ISIS.
-CNN
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artu
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posted October 25, 2015 02:17 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 27 Oct 2015. |
Edited by artu at 14:23, 25 Oct 2015.
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Corribus said:
What causes radical Islam?
The book certainly is a factor, there's no denying that. Islam had always been a religion based on the premise that believers will be victorious against non-believers and things were mainly like that, up until the 18th century. It supports the idea to be fair to non-believers, not to kill innocents etc when the armies of Islam achieve promised victory but to be dominated and ruled by technologically superior non-believers is an alien concept to them. So yes, things went exceptionally wild when the industrial powers colonized it since the 19th century. Before WW 1, most of the states of today did not exist, their borderlines were literally drawn by British officers, so there is always historical dispute about who owns where. That being said, the same history has shown us again and again, under the right social conditions any religious text, no matter how aggressive the dogma is, can be interpreted in a peaceful way. (And the opposite, even something as pacifist as Buddhism can be interpreted to support military invasion when politics and institutional clergy that is in bed with them gets involved.) So despite all the verses from Quran about warfare, "the theological leg" is not the predominantly significant issue here. The Middle-East is full of very primitive regimes and anachronical ideas about how to govern people, in most places, the people themselves aren't very enlightened about how they should be governed either, there are individual intellectuals, activists etc but not a social background or a historical tradition that is sufficient enough to establish a functioning, secular democracy in most of these states. It can flourish overtime, it took the West centuries of progress to get where they are today, but that's when "imperialism" and the rich resources come in play, the West and other significant powers such as Russia, China, do not want the Middle-East to be the hell hole it is today, they want it to be stable enough to remain as a market and they want consistency enough to be able to "deal business." But they also don't prefer a full progression. They mostly prefer puppet states instead of ones that will follow their own national interest just like they do. For example, Iraq had nationalized oil prior to the invasion and this was a deal breaker for the US companies, they supported Bush all the way and financed his agenda, it was actually their agenda. And that's mainly what terminally slows down any kind of social progress, the region is like a chessboard constantly being manipulated and occupied by global power players and the only social reflex they have as an answer to that historically is holy war. And since there is no authority that is accepted as a legitimate establishment by any significant majority, they also start to kill each other to achieve that. (So fred,) the destabilization that is partly created by the world powers in general, also causes them to have "clan wars" among themselves, because when the West finances a coup, provokes uprisings (not revolutions, that's naive, the infrastructure hardly changes), overthrows dictators etc, it leaves the region in a status quo of dog-eat-dog power grasp. How do you get power, you need brute force, sure, but you also need something to tell people, something that will convince them that you are worthy of ruling and you shouldn't be receiving any resistance. In the Arabic world, that is traditionally Islam. And as things become more chaotic, the interpretation of it becomes more reactionary and radical, since you can't exactly have "Quaker Muslims" in a hornet's nest.
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Salamandre
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posted October 25, 2015 02:49 PM |
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Elodin
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posted October 25, 2015 04:13 PM |
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markkur
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posted October 25, 2015 04:34 PM |
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artu said:
...since you can't exactly have "Quaker Muslims" in a hornet's nest.
So true. It seems every time there are two groups out to kill each other, no matter the year, nor the conflict, there cannot be "neutrals." (people that would never agree with either side) The same crap happened in the English Civil War and many other times in history. It didn't matter whether the source of the conflict was King versus Parliament, haves versus have-nots, or Catholic versus Protestant and on and on...that damned attitude of "if you are not with us, you are against us" will prevail. And the despicable propaganda-tool has not went out of fashion, it is more used today than at any time in history including both world wars.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 25, 2015 05:50 PM |
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Salamandre said:
 worth.
And it also has the ~number of lines required for one, today.
Seconded.
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