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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2013 07:16 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 19:17, 28 Jan 2013.
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Sorry then, Gnomes comparison made it sound like it's nearly impossible for non-americans to get citizenship just because they're non-american.
Sweden is extreme when it comes to citizenship too. There are seriously ZERO requirements. You don't need to know anything about society, you don't need to have a job, you don't even need to know how to speak swedish! And even without being a citizen you have access to full tax-paid healthcare, wellfare and education.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted January 28, 2013 07:16 PM |
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All countries that have obvious racist laws should be blamed.
Then the entire world is racist. Each country has laws that favor one side over the other.
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So the Jewish identity will be destroyed if non-jews get to live as citizens of Israel.
Nope, they just dont make it easy for non-jews to enter and become jews.
Its the same with every EU country.
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We've already seen the Israeli government's view on African immigrants so these kind of laws aren't really surprising.
They maybe be discriminated but african immigrants with jewish ancestry do get the citizenship to live in israel.
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Gnomes: Then the US has racist citizenship laws too. It makes no sense for citizenship to be nearly unobtainable by hard-working migrants. Especially not a country like the US, which was built on them.
Those laws are all over the world, including the US,Canada, Australia.
Thats how it works.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2013 07:20 PM |
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Then the entire world is racist. Each country has laws that favor one side over the other.
I really, really doubt that the entire world has citizenship based on ethnicity. Favoring one side over the other isn't a problem if everybody has the possibility to become part of that side.
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Nope, they just dont make it easy for non-jews to enter and become jews.
Free migration for jewish people, yay!
That's irrelevant. I was refering to the thing where Geny said that it's nearly impossible for non-jewish people to get an israeli citizenship.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 28, 2013 07:38 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:50, 28 Jan 2013.
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There is of course double standards in every country, yet comparing them to the current situation in Israel and normalizing it is wrong.
First of all, the double standards, although they are there (for example in my country, through the history of republic there is not one high ranking officer in military who is from the non-muslim minority) they are not things that are officially approved. People don't defend them out loud. In Israel it is the official state policy. So you can not expect it to resolve or soften down through time.
Also, in Israel it's specific to a religion that relies on blood. It's very hard to convert into Judaism if your ancestors are not, and why on Earth should someone be forced to pick a mythology to become a citizen. Can you imagine US only picking citizens who are WASP? Let's say that is a country already originating in immigration, can you imagine French people only excepting Catholics as citizens? So saying it's like that all over the world is exaggerating it. There are double-standards and racism all over the world, yes but up to an amount, there are differences between the level of it, and there are differences between the way how the majority and the state treats that racism.
To be fair, I don't think Israel's neighbours are any better than her on this matter. Both sides rely on religious dogma and arrogant tradition when it comes to this conflict. They have been at each others' throat ever since I can remember myself, so I went quite numb on this matter and I could care less if they nuke each other to extinction. Grow up. Forget about jihad, the promised land of Moses and all the fairy tale that comes with it and learn to live together.
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Seraphim
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posted January 28, 2013 07:48 PM |
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Free migration for jewish people, yay!
That's irrelevant. I was refering to the thing where Geny said that it's nearly impossible for non-jewish people to get an israeli citizenship.
Just like it is nearly impossible to get a Polish citizenship,Latvian citizenship,Swiss citizenship and so on, if you are not someone from those countries.
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Geny
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 28, 2013 08:28 PM |
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@xerox
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We've already seen the Israeli government's view on African immigrants so these kind of laws aren't really surprising.
Please tell me what you've seen. Because I haven't seen anything wrong with how Israel treats African immigrants, as in those who come to Israel in a legal way.
@artu
If I understood you correctly, you claim that in Israel racial discrimination is the way of the law. I would really like it if you gave some examples of it, because I find it hard to address seemingly baseless statements. There is the thing about migration laws, but I already talked about it. Since you mentioned the army I will also say that Israel does not recruit Arabs, but considering its enemies it is hardly surprising. It does recruit other non-Jewish people.
It's not true that you have to believe in Judaism to gain Israeli citizenship. I don't believe in anything, I don't even count as Jewish by Judaic laws. Yet I gained citizenship the moment I stepped on Israeli soil because of my nationality, i.e. because my father's blood is Jewish. That sort of "selection" exists in many other countries.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 28, 2013 08:59 PM |
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So you're saying that by "being Jewish" they only mean blood heritage and not religious faith. Okay, I'll take your word on that, guess I understood "being Jewish" in a broader sense and was mistaken.
Yet, even if it is like that, it means if we have two people who can prove that their grandfathers lived in Tel Aviv, the one with Jewish blood has advantage. And yes there are countries like that, but there are also countries not like that. I'm not trying to single out Israel but the thing is the Israel State is one of the strictest countries about such things, I assume since the shootings on that boat with protesters, there has been lots of anti-Israel propaganda here in our press, and when I read them I don't believe all of it and try to remain objective as much as I can, but even if you look at the international press (and not Middle East, Western press) there is a lot of criticism about Israel practicing that kind of policy in a very hard-core way. World has many places like that doesn't cut it, because there are levels of doing it. Also Israel is a very young state without historical prestige and acceptance over the region, so it annoys more people when they are the ones doing it. Maybe they do it because they feel they are surrounded by enemies from everywhere, but that kind of approach will only make more enemies. You don't machine-gun a ship full of civilian protesters for example, since that incident, needless to say, the public opinion on Israel went extremely negative here. Anyway, as I said before I don't think the Arab states are any better on this subject, and they are not doing anything to convince Israel into being a more diplomatic state. Since the war in 1967 there are problems about what the borders themselves should be and I don't see them coming to an agreement in near future.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 28, 2013 09:14 PM |
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The whole "being Jewish" issue is a tricky one, because there's the religion and there's the nationality and they are also tied together in Jewish tradition and believes. When I tried to explain to some people in Israel that religion is not inherited by blood (although it is inherited through education), they looked at me as if I was crazy. The migration laws, however, are based on nationality. The rationality behind that is that any man who was Jewish enough for the Nazis to send him to death camps must also be Jewish enough for Israel to take him in and protect him. That is why the criteria is the same as in Nirenberg protocols and that is why Israel is so hellbent on keeping its Jewish appearance - to remain a haven for Jews that are not welcome where they are now.
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mvassilev
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posted January 29, 2013 02:05 AM |
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What's so special about the Jews or being Jewish? Why should a state protect Jewish customs and culture? If someone wants to practice Judaism, keep kosher, etc, that's their own business - but if someone doesn't want to abide by any particularly Jewish traditions, they shouldn't have to. Why should stores be forced to close on Saturdays? You can say "Israel is a Jewish state" and "everyone else does it", but that doesn't make it okay. Why should Israel be a haven for Jews, and not just a haven for anyone who wants one? According to Hitler, Jews are bad and should be disproportionally hurt - obviously, he was wrong. But the opposite of that belief - "Jews are good and should be disproportionally helped" - is bad too. Jews are no better or worse than anybody else, so why should any state give them special treatment?
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blizzardboy
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posted January 29, 2013 02:15 AM |
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Germany wasn't the only country that was (is) extremely racist towards the Jewish community. Pretty much all of Europe, especially eastern Europe, was (is) very anti-Semitic. As a polarized reaction to old wealth aristocrats, people became resentful towards anybody that was successful, and since Jews - by both nature and nurture - are smarter and much more successful than other people on average, they pretty much became a prime target. Sore loser complex, etc.
It's kind of like asking why American Indian or Aboriginal reservations didn't want white people moving in with them, or why Armenians aren't overly welcoming to outsiders. They're a systematically persecuted group so they wanted their own little niche. Even in 2013, being Jewish in Europe means you'll run into a lot of discrimination.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2013 03:06 AM |
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and since Jews - by both nature and nurture - are smarter and much more successful than other people on average
Do you actually believe that or are you just messing around? Races are not sub-species, there is no biological intelligence difference between them.
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Salamandre
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posted January 29, 2013 04:04 AM |
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BB is right, jews become smarter than others because they are educated and trained to since their youngest age. They are not more talented by genetics, but they have as race characteristic the ambition at highest degree and they know how to prepare their children to become exceptional-I call it responsible parental love-. Not all become because where is no grain, there is no plant, but by detecting early aptitudes you have greater chances to develop them. Same education, if distributed to any other race, it gives same results: russians can very well compete with jews in arts, sports and sciences for example. In Europe the russian school is often mocked for its spartan attitude, but results are there. And now chineses are coming in force, there is an outstanding collective effort to create true mind weapons and it works.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2013 04:33 AM |
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That is called nurture, not nature and nurture.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted January 29, 2013 04:38 AM |
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It is almost impossible to design a line between instinct and will. I won't adventure and claim that on average they have the pride as genetic legacy but I am close to think it.
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Invictus7
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 29, 2013 05:32 AM |
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Why should a state protect Jewish customs and culture? If someone wants to practice Judaism, keep kosher, etc, that's their own business - but if someone doesn't want to abide by any particularly Jewish traditions, they shouldn't have to. Why should stores be forced to close on Saturdays?
Right, and they don't have to. Not only does Israel allow religious freedom, many shops and cafes remain open on Friday and Saturday.
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You can say "Israel is a Jewish state" and "everyone else does it", but that doesn't make it okay. Why should Israel be a haven for Jews, and not just a haven for anyone who wants one?
Honestly, isn't it? Sure it's easier if you're Jewish but Xerox said himself that only a quarter of the population is Jewish. You can't even go into and Arab country with an Israeli stamp on your passport.
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Jews are no better or worse than anybody else, so why should any state give them special treatment?
Even in Australia, when a citizen has gone to Bali with drugs or bought drugs, it's all over the news and the government is hellbent on making sure the person doesn't get a death sentence. Do you think that we hear about it when a Balinese person gets a death sentence?
So really your question is "no-one is any better or worse than anyone else, so why should any state give them special treatment?" Well because a state protects its citizens. Israel is a Jewish state (notwithstanding whether you or I think this a wrong thing) therefore it protects and "favours" Jews.
There is a problem with the exacting standards that the wider world and the media puts on Israel. In Afghanistan a woman will be stoned if she isn't wearing a burqa, but no, we would rather look at Israel and point out its "racist" laws and see that many shops are closed on Saturday etc.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted January 29, 2013 07:59 AM |
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There is a problem with the exacting standards that the wider world and the media puts on Israel.
Arent they just plain old jealous? There are people out there who believe the Jews are controlling the planet and blame them for everything bad. Its just the plain old "Jews are evil" thinking.
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In Saudi Arabia a woman will be stoned if she isn't wearing a burqa, but no, we would rather look at Israel and point out its "racist" laws and see that many shops are closed on Saturday etc.
Because Saudi Arabia is just another snow hole in the middle east. People are not envious about people whom they think are inferior.
But then, I am talking about people here. I dont know why people in politics or diplomats do this from countries like France or Germany.
I really wonder : What if all Jews that were killed or had been driven out of Europe remained in europe and WW2 never happened.
I wonder how many nazis and fascists would be screaming around the streets that jews were a problem.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2013 12:43 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:45, 29 Jan 2013.
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I won't adventure and claim that on average they have the pride as genetic legacy but I am close to think it.
There are 2 problems on thinking like that. The first thing is, today genetics is so advanced, we now know that races in the traditional sense don't exist in reality. Even in most introvert, self-enclosed cultures (and especially in places like Europe and Middle East with lots of history of immigration, power shift, slave trade, non-national empires) almost everybody are genetically hybrids. That's why you have blonde Turks and dark skinned Russians, Swedish people with brown eyes... etc etc. So thinking of racial qualifications like they did in 19th or early 20th century is actually like taking a Jackson Pollock painting and looking at it in a 250 color monitor.
The second problem would be not scientific but rather political. If you take a concept such as pride an make it biological, then it would also mean negative qualities can be about race too. Everybody will be happy when you talk about their "genetic pride" but then it will also be possible to talk about the mean English, lazy Italian, barbaric Turk, pretentious French, mad Russian, sinister Jew etc etc... Because you have set the stage for it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2013 01:02 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:05, 29 Jan 2013.
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In Saudi Arabia a woman will be stoned if she isn't wearing a burqa, but no, we would rather look at Israel and point out its "racist" laws and see that many shops are closed on Saturday etc.
Saudi Arabia does not claim to be or want to be a part of the modern, civilized world. Israel does. If you wanna join the club you have to play by the rules.
P.S. Burqa is for Afghanistan btw, In Arabic lands you can still see the eyes.
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xerox
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posted January 29, 2013 03:43 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 15:44, 29 Jan 2013.
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Just like it is nearly impossible to get a Polish citizenship,Latvian citizenship,Swiss citizenship and so on, if you are not someone from those countries.
None of these citizenships are tied to ethnicity.
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Please tell me what you've seen. Because I haven't seen anything wrong with how Israel treats African immigrants, as in those who come to Israel in a legal way.
Illegal immigrants are usually the ones most desperate.
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Xerox said himself that only a quarter of the population is Jewish.
I said a quarter of the population ISN'T jewish so it doesn't make sense for Israel to be a jewish state.
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Saudi Arabia does not claim to be or want to be a part of the modern, civilized world. Israel does. If you wanna join the club you have to play by the rules.
+1
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted January 29, 2013 04:45 PM |
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Please tell me what you've seen. Because I haven't seen anything wrong with how Israel treats African immigrants, as in those who come to Israel in a legal way.
Umm, I don't say I don't agree with following but facts are there:
Israel admitted control birth rate for immigrants
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