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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 29, 2013 05:28 PM |
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@mvass
Private business owners can do whatever they want in Saturdays. They won't be kosher and won't get any religious customers, but that's their choice. There is a problem with public services, like public transport. Which is why I did not go into details about what it means to be a Jewish state. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, here has a different opinion on the matter. It ranges from following the Tora to the letter to simply allowing Jews to get citizenship and let them do whatever they want. The actual state of things changes slightly from time to time and is always in the media. However, the big majority does believe that Israel should remain a Jewish state, whatever that means.
@xerox
Quote:
Illegal immigrants are usually the ones most desperate.
So? Does that mean that Israel should suffer financially just because someone did not make it in his own country? Any illegal immigrant was deported back to his own country in a humane way, as far as I know. You ant to help them, by all means take them to Sweden or any other EU country, but just because Israel is the closest modern state to Africa doesn't mean it should care for its whole population. Now if you mean refugees, then that's another story. But refugees were not deported for as long as their country remained defined as being in a state of catastrophe.
@Sal
I remember that story. It made a lot of noise in here. And not the good kind. Sadly, I can do nothing but condone what has happened.
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gnomes2169
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posted January 29, 2013 05:35 PM |
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Quote:
Illegal immigrants are usually the ones most desperate.
And because they are desperate, they should not only be given shelter within a place filled with strife of all kinds, but also given the full rights and protections of people who move in, are less desperate (aka, moving in because they wish to be part of a Jewish state, not because they are persecuted), and have to work for the same rights? Now I'm absolutely fine with the idea of letting someone stay in any country once they get there, but if they do so illegally I do not believe that it should be easy for them to become citizens. Hard, not impossible, would be the goal.
Quote:
I said a quarter of the population ISN'T jewish so it doesn't make sense for Israel to be a jewish state.
75% is more than a vast majority, it is a dominating one. Laws will naturally favor people in such a society (look at the US and christianity for reference), regardless of their official stance on a state religion. 25% of the population not being part of the majority does not a secular state make.
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xerox
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posted January 29, 2013 06:20 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:20, 29 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
So?
Compassion?
What about illegal immigrants who come to Israel to seek sanctuary? Do you just throw those people out? People don't take the decision to flee their homes lightly. During their escape, they pretty much sell their souls to smugglers. Some end up in slavery and huge debts.
Gnomes: Quote:
but also given the full rights and protections of people who move in,
Where did I say this?
I said that the Israeli government has very strongly looked down upon african immigrants. Geny's post implied that it doesn't matter because they're illegal immigrants. I pointed out that illegal immigrants are often the ones most desperate for help. It had little to do with citizenship.
The United States is a secular federation with a constitution that was originally pretty much completely non-religious.
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gnomes2169
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posted January 29, 2013 06:23 PM |
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Quote:
I said that the Israeli government has very strongly looked down upon african immigrants. Geny's post implied that it doesn't matter because they're illegal immigrants. I pointed out that illegal immigrants are often the ones most desperate for help. It had little to do with citizenship.
Oh, sorry. Thought you were grilling him about how his country is not letting illegal immigrants be citizens. I'll just shut up now. 
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 29, 2013 07:20 PM |
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@xerox
Again, if you're talking about refugees that ran away from war, they were not sent back until the war was over.
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xerox
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posted January 29, 2013 08:32 PM |
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I looked it up and the situation wasn't as grim as I thought. Still, in my ideal world, we welcome people who want to live a better life instead of labeling them as criminals. Even as second class citizens, without access to some wellfare benefits, that's better than having them live in misery. But that's probably another discussion.
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Salamandre
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posted January 29, 2013 08:46 PM |
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Your ideal world will slowly degrade later, when your taxes will constantly increase to an absurd amount in order to nourish the millions coming for a better life. And often not paying anything in return.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2013 08:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:17, 29 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
Your ideal world will slowly degrade later, when your taxes will constantly increase to an absurd amount in order to nourish the millions coming for a better life. And often not paying anything in return.
There are also problems like traffic, city ordinance, distribution of clean water, heat, electricity, crime control. These are all organized according to a population and immigration rate. Unfortunately we don't drink our water from the river anymore.
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xerox
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posted January 29, 2013 09:08 PM |
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Quote:
Your ideal world will slowly degrade later, when your taxes will constantly increase to an absurd amount in order to nourish the millions coming for a better life. And often not paying anything in return.
not if we're a low tax, free market, limited wellfare country
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Salamandre
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posted January 29, 2013 09:09 PM |
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Yes, countries are economically similar to companies nowadays. You don't hire someone just because he is sad and alone, you hire him when it fits and actively works for the company growth and profit. Otherwise you go bankrupt, then everyone is sad.
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not if we're a low tax, free market, limited wellfare country
Oh yeah, you invented the wheel
Give me an existing example of such country and with free for all immigration rate.
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xerox
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posted January 29, 2013 09:15 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:20, 29 Jan 2013.
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Give me an existing example of such country and with free for all immigration rate.
There isn't. That's why it's an ideal country.
Okay, now I have more complaints against Israel. So UN votes to grant Palestine observer status in the UN. Israel respons by EXPANDING their reckless occupation, settling and annexation policies.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 29, 2013 10:02 PM |
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We talked about this in the beginning of the thread. I understand how this may seem childish and possibly cruel. I'm not even saying that it's what I would have done, but I do understand the logic. Israel has been asking the Palestinians to sit down and talk without any pre-conditions for years now. So when Palestine decides to make a unitary move bypassing any dialogue and sets some facts on the ground, Israel reacts in making its own unitary action that sets some facts on the ground. Basically, what Israel is saying is that trying to reach a solution without coming to an agreement with Israel as well will have consequences.
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mvassilev
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posted January 29, 2013 11:01 PM |
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Quote:
Does that mean that Israel should suffer financially just because someone did not make it in his own country?
"No," you answer, "Unless that person is Jewish." And I'm not hearing any justifications for why it's better if they're Jewish other than "Everybody else does it."
Also, if Saturday shopping is legal, then what's this?
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xerox
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posted January 29, 2013 11:37 PM |
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HAHAHAHAHA that's actually both hilarious and horrifying at the same time
I know politicans who want to ban sunday shopping though, because "shopping is bad for the enviroment"...
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Invictus7
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posted January 29, 2013 11:38 PM |
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That was published 7 years ago, and Saturday shopping is still legal.
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 29, 2013 11:39 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 23:41, 29 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
Quote:
Does that mean that Israel should suffer financially just because someone did not make it in his own country?
"No," you answer, "Unless that person is Jewish." And I'm not hearing any justifications for why it's better if they're Jewish other than "Everybody else does it."
Also, if Saturday shopping is legal, then what's this?
What a hell are you all talking about at all ?
1. Your article is from 2006, Dude is a religious freak (maybe you're familiar with the concept), people can open their shops on Saturdays...
2. Im not jewish, I got the citizenship with no drama...
3. They prefer jews coz it is a jewish state by the definition, it was created with the sole purpose of being a safe haven for jews from all around the world as it was created after the WWII hence jews can get citizenship with no questions asked...
4. Is it morally acceptable by any state to define itself as "random religion" state, I dont think so but why is this an issue at all ? Israel never claimed to be anything else so whats the debate about ? Why do jews prefer jews over other religions or think they're better ? For the same reason the christians prefer christians, muslims other muslims etc... the only odd people in this equation would be atheists, but then again, atheists prefer other atheists as well, so let me ask you again, what is the debate about ?
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 30, 2013 12:06 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:08, 30 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
Why do jews prefer jews over other religions or think they're better ? For the same reason the christians prefer christians, muslims other muslims etc... the only odd people in this equation would be atheists, but then again, atheists prefer other atheists as well, so let me ask you again, what is the debate about ?
It's hardly the main topic of the debate here but that's a little oversimplifying considering their theologies. Christians and muslims believe they are the chosen people of God too, but they also believe their religion is sent out to all humanity. They consider it their duty to try and spread their religion and feel happy when people join. Actually they can be quite annoying and insistent on that too. Atheists also think their world view can be understood by everyone and may try to convince everybody about it. Judaism on the other hand is a blood-related religion and it's very hard for someone to convert into it. Now when the selectiveness of nationalsm and the dogma of religious "we are the chosen people" merge, that can be quite a poisonous mix for right-wing politicians, especially if they are extremists. Other religions have their own special demons too of course, but we've talked about those on related threads.
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mvassilev
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posted January 30, 2013 12:12 AM |
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Invictus:Quote:
That was published 7 years ago, and Saturday shopping is still legal.
Here's something more recent. Shops are fined for being open on Saturdays.
Smithey:
See the above article.
As far as religion goes, there's nothing wrong with Jews preferring Jews. People who have a common religion have more values in common, theoretically (in practice, conservative Jews have more in common with conservative Christians than they do with Reform Jews). The problem is when they use the coercive power of a state to preserve their Jewishness. It's fine if you want to live in a community of Jews, but if you use force to prevent others from living there, then that's a problem.
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 30, 2013 12:19 AM |
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Artu, you're wrong, Jews have no problems with conversion, you get materials, study them and pass the test... you're a jew after that just like Maddona...
Mvass, That's freaky as hell, but the thing is - shops are open on Saturdays regardless of that...
and what do you mean they're using force to prevent others from living there ? Im clueless as to what that means ?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 30, 2013 12:30 AM |
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It may have became relatively easier during these last years. From what I've read, heard and watched on popular culture (movies, tv shows etc) and as far as my own jewish friends tell me, it is still not a very easy process. But I guess that is relative and it probably differs from country to country, or even from synagogue to synagogue. There are probably conservative rabbis and modern ones etc etc. I guess Geny knows much more about this. Maybe, he'll enlighten us.
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This thread is pages long: 
