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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: HOMM3 Mapmaking gurus - share your wisdom!
Thread: HOMM3 Mapmaking gurus - share your wisdom! This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2013 09:13 PM

HOMM3 Mapmaking gurus - share your wisdom!

Hey all,

Long story but I'll try to keep it short.  I played a ton of HOMM2 back in the day.  I loved making maps, in fact I still get the occasional request from friends I haven't seen in years for a copy of an old map I made back in college.

Anyway... the point is I've recently "rediscovered" HOMM3 and have been fairly obsessed with it of late.  I thought it would be cool to dust off my skills and make a continuation of my previous map, but for HOMM3 instead of 2.  The editor in 3 is so much more powerful than 2, I'm having a blast playing around with everything I can edit.  Unfortunately I'd like to have this map done in a few months to play with some friends, so I need to accelerate my learning curve a bit.

I've seen some incredibly creative maps hosted online, so I know you guys are out there.  Any tips or tricks of the trade you've come up with that you are insanely proud of?  Any pitfalls I need to look out for?  I have a series of questions to ask, but I'll pose them one at a time so as not to overwhelm this first post:

Question 1
Is there any way to script the removal of a specific monster stack in a player's army?  I've tried with Quests and Events (both map-placed and times), but the only categories that can be toggled from Give to Take are resources and Spell Points.

It's important in the early part of the storyline that Player 1 is confronted with a foe he has zero chance of beating.  He will be rewarded (by an Event or Quest) with a stack of ~250 Phoenixes in order to take out this enemy.  However I want him to lose that stack right after, as being able to retain them will seriously mess up the next stage of the story.  Is this possible?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 03, 2013 09:21 PM

I think that what players prefer is realistic progression after all. Myself I would never give 250 phoenix on day 1, provoke a very big battle then take them back on day 2, leaving him with 1 pikeman and mad, but I guess you have your reasons.

On SoD you can take any stack away by blocking the player with a quest gate asking for. The problem is that you will have to set the border asking for 250 phoenix, not less, thus he must lose none in that battle.

Because if you allow him to lose let's say 100 then ask for 150, there are always players who will reload until they lose 70 then they will keep 30 after passing the border.
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted January 03, 2013 09:31 PM

Never made any maps myself, but it seems to me that if the story absolutely requires it, maybe You could make it so that the hero receiving the phoenix stack has no further impact on the game? I mean, let the player use that hero for the battle, but have the battle take place in a sealed off area, so that the player can't transfer the remaining phoenixes to another hero, nor can they effectively use that given hero?
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VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2013 09:35 PM

Question 2:
I'd like the players of my map to feel harassed by a powerful computer AI for most of the early stages of the game, so there will be opposing castles fairly close by.  However I don't want the particularly skilled players to defeat these enemies too early.  

It seems like a pretty common tactic is to separate the player's and AI's castles by a barrier that cannot be overcome in the early stage of the game - like a quest border gate or a very powerful stack of neutral monsters, and then give the AI side a one-way teleport entrance into the player's land.  While this tactic undeniably works, I'd like to avoid it if possible.  There's nothing more annoying than having a Day 7 middling enemy popping up on your doorstep from out of the blue.

What I want to do instead is have no barrier between the player and AI castles, but protect the AI castle from a week 1 or week 2 bumrush.  To do this I placed a very powerful enemy hero, complete with a strong, fully upgraded army 2 steps out from his own castle.  He's setup with a short leash (3 block patrol) so he can defend the castle from attack, but can't bring his overwhelming forces into play against the human player.  This way he (the AI) has to hire out heroes and attack the human in a traditional manner, until the human has built up enough to finally come after the strong army.

My question is (finally!): would the AI ever be clever enough to pass that large army+artifacts from the strong (but immobile) hero on to another hero it hired out?  That would be a disaster, as the poor player might find himself beseiged by 10 black dragons in the first week of play and get utterly annihilated.

To answer my own question I made a test map with a single island about 20 blocks wide.  I placed a Castle on one side and a Dungeon on the other.  I made a leashed Dungeon Hero with 800 Scorpicores and then let the scenario play out for 2 months.  The Scorp hero just sat there at his post while hiring out new heroes to assault the Castle at the end of each week.  When the Castle hero counter-attacked at the end of 2 months with a superior force (I cheated and gave him 1000 Titans), the Scorp hero retreated into his castle to defend.  But when I came at him with regular knight troops (left the Titans with another hero), he came charging out of his castle as far as his 3 block leash would allow to kick the crap out of me.  This is *exactly* how I want him to behave on my actual map - I just want to make sure a sample size of 8 weeks is enough.  Has anyone else used this methodology?  As long as the stationary hero never transfers his uber army to a hired out hero, I should be fine, right?

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VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2013 09:47 PM

Quote:
I think that what players prefer is realistic progression after all. Myself I would never give 250 phoenix on day 1, provoke a very big battle then take them back on day 2, leaving him with 1 pikeman and mad, but I guess you have your reasons.

On SoD you can take any stack away by blocking the player with a quest gate asking for. The problem is that you will have to set the border asking for 250 phoenix, not less, thus he must lose none in that battle.

Because if you allow him to lose let's say 100 then ask for 150, there are always players who will reload until they lose 70 then they will keep 30 after passing the border.


Well most of the map will be a more traditional progression, however this one area/instance it's important for story purposes to unfold as I detailed.  It's not going to be quite as drastic as mentioned (250 on day 1), the player will be able to build up a small army of his own, but not one that can ever match his opponent, no matter how many weeks he allowed for buildup/hiring. The point is that the hero is faced with an insurmountable foe and requires the aid of an unlikely "temporary" ally - one who would not stick around to help him after their mutual enemy has been dispatched.

Thanks for the quest gate suggestion, though.  The specificity of the request might be a problem, guaranteeing he loses none in the big battle is a harsh condition, and trying to gauge how many he might lose is an even tougher variable as you already illustrated.  I'll have to do some more thinking on the matter, but you've at least got me going in the right direction - I hadn't realized quest gates could ask for monsters.  Thank you.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted January 03, 2013 09:48 PM
Edited by Corribus at 21:54, 03 Jan 2013.

Hi VikingLegion -
Welcome to the forums.  I think you'll find there are still many H3 fans.

Short of using the advanced scripting possibilities of WoG (which has a fairly steep learning curve), there are many ways to script complex events using the H3 vanilla editor, provided you are willing to be creative.  In my old Traemask II map, my goal was to make all kinds of complex things happen for the purposes of puzzles, and this was before WoG was really on the scene.  I learned a lot about the H3 editor's capabilities and how to make things happen.

For instance, in answer to your question 1, while you can't forcibly remove troops using the vanilla editor, you can compel the player to remove them of his own accord.  Example: after the event with the phoenixes, place a 1 way portal and on the other side of the portal place a bottlenecked quest guard that requires seven different creature types to pass (1 peasant, 1 skeleton, 1 goblin, 1 trog, etc.).  Before the portal, put a sign that tells the player not to enter the portal unless he has these exact creatures, and place some mechanism before the portal for him to acquire these creatures (appropriate dwellings, a fortification that has them all there, creature stacks that will join, whatever).  At some point to proceed, he'll have to dump the phoenixes, and since the portal is 1 way, he can't drop them off somewhere and go back to pick them up.  (You can also do this without a 1 way portal - just use the quest guard - but you'll have to ensure that the player has no way to stow the phoenixes temporarily rather than dismissing them - e.g., he can't have access to a town).  

Hope that's all clear.  The solutions aren't always very elegant, and there are usually compromises, but with a little creative storytelling, you should be able to make it work.

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VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2013 09:52 PM

Quote:
Never made any maps myself, but it seems to me that if the story absolutely requires it, maybe You could make it so that the hero receiving the phoenix stack has no further impact on the game? I mean, let the player use that hero for the battle, but have the battle take place in a sealed off area, so that the player can't transfer the remaining phoenixes to another hero, nor can they effectively use that given hero?


Interesting idea.  Does a dismissed hero in HOMM3 retain their army to be hired out in a tavern, or do they restart with whatever base army they always pop out of the tavern with?  Fleeing from a neutral stack gets rid of all stacks, right?  Is surrendering to another player (human or AI) the only way to retain troops?  Forgive me for my rustiness with HOMM3 mechanics, it's been ages!

At any rate I don't think this avenue will work, as that hero has been slated to "go the distance" in the storyline, but I do appreciate your creative attempt for a workaround.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted January 03, 2013 09:55 PM
Edited by Corribus at 21:58, 03 Jan 2013.

WRT question 2, it's hard to predict how the H3 AI will behave.  The AI does tend to make one "super hero", unlike H2's AI which tended to spread the wealth around.  I don't know of a way to ensure the AI doesn't trade artifacts or creatures - I'd have to think about it.  You can give the AI fortifications that have large armies, and there is a checkbox that forbids the AI from taking those troops.  You could put those in front of the castles in question.  

Another way to do this is to use the colored quest gates (not the ones that disappear when they're accessed - the ones you can pass through only if you have visited the appropriate tent).  All you have to do is restrict the AI from accessing the tent until the day you want him to do so - easily done using daily resource bonues as your "timer".  (This kind of timer, by the way, is a useful trick to accomplish a lot of timed scripts in the vanilla editor.  I used it a lot in my H3 maps before WoG came around.)
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2013 10:03 PM
Edited by VikingLegion at 22:06, 03 Jan 2013.

Hi Corribus,

That's a pretty wild idea, very creative (question 1).  Like you said it's not the most elegant of fixes, but I might have to resort to some heavy-handed tactics from time to time to preserve the storyline.  

Now I have 3 very different potential fixes to think over, and that's exactly why I started this thread.  I knew you veterans would have lots of outside-the-box ways to tackle this stuff!!  
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted January 03, 2013 10:07 PM

It's all about salesmanship.  Weave a good story out of it, and players will barely notice they're being manipulated.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Star_King
Star_King


Known Hero
posted January 04, 2013 05:51 AM
Edited by Star_King at 05:52, 04 Jan 2013.

Quote:
Question 2:
My question is (finally!): would the AI ever be clever enough to pass that large army+artifacts from the strong (but immobile) hero on to another hero it hired out?  That would be a disaster, as the poor player might find himself beseiged by 10 black dragons in the first week of play and get utterly annihilated.



I am not 100% sure, but I think that the AI will transfer the bulk of the army to the hero with the best stats, so in his mind he is making the most powerful hero possible. Not sure because I'm not sure how AI will handle a hero with a patrol, though. If you want to be absolutely sure the AI won't use the large army to invade, you can place a garrison with the army in front of the AI castle while disabling the ability to take the creatures out. Or you can place an event only the human player can trigger in front of the Castle where the army attacks.

Quote:
Interesting idea.  Does a dismissed hero in HOMM3 retain their army to be hired out in a tavern, or do they restart with whatever base army they always pop out of the tavern with?  Fleeing from a neutral stack gets rid of all stacks, right?  Is surrendering to another player (human or AI) the only way to retain troops?  Forgive me for my rustiness with HOMM3 mechanics, it's been ages!

At any rate I don't think this avenue will work, as that hero has been slated to "go the distance" in the storyline, but I do appreciate your creative attempt for a workaround.


Yes, surrendering is the only way to retain troops. Dismissing a hero will cause him to lose his army.

About the Phoenixes: you could kill the hero with an event, like 1000 Azure Dragons or whatever, that only he can trigger. And allow that player to rehire him from the tavern. I think the quest guard is probably the best solution though. Just make sure the situation will allow the player to easily lose no troops.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted January 04, 2013 04:53 PM
Edited by The_Polyglot at 17:22, 04 Jan 2013.

@Question 2:

Similar to what Star_King said, You could place events(guards) only triggered by a given set of players at choke points. For full effect, You could also set it to be permanent, so that the player has to fight through the guards every time they pass.

Of course, events being invisible, the players would need to be forewarned somehow(Tavern rumors, out of the way signposts, by a babbling seer(I hate it when You just visit, click the check - yeah yeah, I'll keep an eye out for this, and later You realize the seer was in possession of important plot details that You just skipped, and consequently, I think it's a brilliant tool of the ambitious mapmaker. )  timed events(Something like 'the spies sent out to scout the enemy failed to return... They were last seen entering a dark, mysterious forest(choke point)... Could the superstitions of the populace(hinted at in a previous event) prove to be true after all?) unless it's a surprise ambush
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DragosP
DragosP

Tavern Dweller
posted January 05, 2013 02:07 PM

Quote:
Hey all...

Hi there too

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted January 05, 2013 04:45 PM
Edited by Biobob at 16:50, 05 Jan 2013.

I have some useful tricks for you:

-The day 1 battle: Just put all the army you want, to create the puzzles you want to create. Then you set one quest guard asking for the death of the enemy hero in the other area (where the story will go on).

-The 0 Stats man: Set a hero with Stats of 99 99 99 99. Then give him stat boni through event in balance to the enemy heroes experience (if he gives much experience, give less, if little experience, give more), so that the "helping" hero will fall to Stat levels of 0 after the battle.
After that, set one one-way-monolith to some border gate asking for the death of the enemy with a Border gate behind, but also with another, much stronger, enemy hero (See Screen), which will take the gate, no matter what.
Then you go map properties -> heros -> "Helping heroes name", and set the player able to hire him to some color without access to the tavern, it neither should be you. Just make sure you first get the hero through prison or game start



@The_Polyglot Event fights are only to be won one time...

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gnollking
gnollking


Supreme Hero
posted January 05, 2013 05:07 PM

Quote:
@The_Polyglot Event fights are only to be won one time...

Just uncheck "Cancel event after first visit". The event stays.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted January 05, 2013 08:44 PM

Try it. Once the fight is won, it won't reoccur.

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VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 07, 2013 04:29 AM

A few of you have mentioned the garrison idea with troops that can't be removed (another basic mechanic I was not aware of!)  While that would undeniably work, I really want to make the leashed hero thing work for a couple reasons.  First, this storyline is based on my old D&D group, and the map is being built for them so it'll have much more impact to see an actual enemy hero on the map than just attacking a static gate.  I want them to hover the mouse over that enemy horsey and see a foe that has given them so much grief in the past.  Also, they won't initially know he's on a limited patrol, so when they see how badly his army outclasses theirs they'll have that mini-heart attack moment as they turn tail and flee back to their castles.

I'll probably do a mixture of the two, put garrisons with un-removable troops on some of the castles with a lesser impact on the storyline, but keep tweaking the idea of the big bad supervillain on a short leash for the more iconic locations.  You've given me some good insight on how the AI builds up and prioritizes though, so I'll run some more test scenarios and tweak the enemy hero levels, primary stats, and artifacts.
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VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 07, 2013 04:43 AM
Edited by VikingLegion at 05:07, 07 Jan 2013.

Quote:
easily done using daily resource bonues as your "timer".  (This kind of timer, by the way, is a useful trick to accomplish a lot of timed scripts in the vanilla editor.  I used it a lot in my H3 maps before WoG came around.)


Can you expand on this a bit please?  I have a theory as to what you mean but see a lot of holes in it so I'm assuming I'm way off.  Do you have any clever ways of granting artifacts on a timer rather than as location events or quest rewards?  Actually I should officially make that:

Question 3:
Can artifacts be given out on a timeline?  For example, I'd like the cleric player, who will be under heavy duress for the first month of the game, to be granted a boon by his god for holding the enemy at bay.  This will come as a powerful relic of the church being granted to him on the first day of month 2 in order to help turn the tide against his foes.  

Similarly, I'd like the Tower team to be infrequently granted some minor artifacts (trinkets really) from time to time - maybe every two weeks to show that the gremlin workshops and mage towers are hard at work researching new means to assist in the war effort.
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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted January 07, 2013 02:47 PM
Edited by Biobob at 14:47, 07 Jan 2013.

Put one windmill with an event before it, and one windmill right beside it. Put one event (dont cancel after first visit) giving artifact beside one of the two. Enemy will now receive one of them per week.

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VikingLegion
VikingLegion

Tavern Dweller
posted January 07, 2013 06:28 PM

Quote:
Try it. Once the fight is won, it won't reoccur.


I tested this out and Biobob is correct.  Once the enemy is defeated, they will not return, which really stinks because I had some specific locations I wanted to use recurring fights in.

Interestingly enough, if you attach a reward to the event, that will happen everytime the block is stepped on.  I created an event with a few air elementals and a 500xp bonus attached to it.  After killing the elementals with a test hero, I found I could repeatedly step off and on that same patch and get an infinite number of 500xp hits.  I did not test to see if the event reoccurs at full strength if only partially cleared - like killing 15 of 20 elementals with the first hero that steps on it - I'd assume the event would reset to 20 elementals for the next hero who touches it.

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