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| Thread: best HoMM storyline.. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted January 20, 2013 11:47 PM |
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I rather like it....
Nothings is only black and white...
Nothing in our world.
But part of why I like fantasy is that it is sometimes better to escape to a world that is wholly unlike our own.
I don't want high political intrigue and characters dealing with inner guilt or a woman who is conflicted by almost being raped by an old man in a game that also has unicorns in it.
I'm not trying to come off as crass but to me not only is HOMM not even close to the ideal medium to handle things like that, but Ubisoft has not shown (certainly in H5 specifically) that it is capable of handling such issues with any level of maturity.
What I find the biggest turn-off at how the towns are rotten on the inside is that it devalues what the artists are trying to convey with the architecture and creatures. Good isn't that good and Bad isn't that bad.
For example the Inferno is a twisted spiralling labryinth of lava obsidian rock, mad corridors leading nowhere, screams and moans of anguish. It is the depiction of Hell.
So far in the campaign a human has gone down to the very pit of the Inferno and shrugged his shoulders and just taken over the place with no problems. Not with an overwhelming army but with a tiny force of demons. Kiril is now cracking jokes with two succubi, and he has the the lord of destruction as well as Kha-Beleth giving him friendly tips and telling him they can help him.
The game presents going into the heart of Hell and taking it over as a fun and easy quest that can be accomplished in one mission. One that has no dread and one that a human with his wacky succubus companions can easily accomplish.
Even is Homm4 which had numerous problems, the town of death and chaos had an almost alien and uneasy feeling about them.
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"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 21, 2013 12:33 AM |
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The seriousness of H6 script can be described in one word, or rather name...Goink...
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted January 21, 2013 04:10 AM |
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The seriousness of H6 script can be described in one word, or rather name...Goink...
Can you imagine being the voice actor?
What an amazing high I imagine it would be to get the call that you will be doing voice work for the new game followed by the abysmmal low of being told you will be portraying a character called "Goink."
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"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 21, 2013 06:15 AM |
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I see only two ways, actually.
1) A cartoony game feel with definite good/bad sides
2) A "mature" game feel/graphics with "realistic (gray) sides"
The game has moved slowly from 1 to 2, HoMM 3 being the turning point, "maturing" in graphics and setting, but still having rather strict sides, although the addons tell tales of ... uncharacteristic or uncommon heroes.
What you cannot have is a "mature" outlook with cartoony characters and factions.
As I said, I've been liking the cartoony, not so darn serious like of old better than the dead-serious and therefore sometimes involuntarily ridiculous style of Ashan - stuff like Goink and "Griffin Eternal" would work in a more cartoony kind of universe and style, and in one that wants to be taken serious.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 21, 2013 07:17 AM |
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How does Sir Christian's castaway antics fare against the comic relief characters of H6?
I only cheated myself through the campaign just to see the cutscenes, but I do remember them being funny,
what with the constant dancing natives, coconut-throwing monkeys and Christian just standing there, looking super concentrated.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 21, 2013 08:37 AM |
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I'm going to get lynched today, but why not.
Everybody has a personal taste and images how things should look. For me Going was an exact image of how a goblins should look like. Maniacal, overenergetic, somehow off the point but still funny. And his voice acting? It was perfect, just in the note of his character. Sure if he was more of a MaM VI goblin, it would not fit, but he is not, he is this almost insane thing that has bigger chances to hurt itself then his enemy, and his voice fits this.
Now to the "gray" topic
Sure you may like "stereotipical" sides like evil orcs or powerhungry necromancers fighting wise wizards and noble kinghts, but there are hords of such worlds (Like Lotr or W-hammer) but how would this make this setting unique? They are still fighting with the label of beeing a WH rip-off thanks to nivals "fredom" in creature designe, so creating a common Good/Evil setting would kill the idea of "new world" even more.
Sure there is the topic of Ubi "Not beeing able to make a good story". (The last two DLC's beeing a step in the right direction). But that does not mean there setting is bad. How many stories about an evil necromancer can you wright, how many times can you send the orcs into war for pure bloodlust.
The fact that Ashan orcs are a created race, and hate most of the other races for treating them like things is a nice touch.
You also have the basic three different kinds of necromancers in this setting. The zelotic priests of death, the powerhungry ambitios tyrants and the deceptive nethermancers who want to free themselves from the chains of this god-filled world.
@dkolb
I think you missunderstood Kiril's story and even it's outcome.
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What you cannot have is a "mature" outlook with cartoony characters and factions.
As I said, I've been liking the cartoony, not so darn serious like of old better than the dead-serious and therefore sometimes involuntarily ridiculous style of Ashan - stuff like Goink and "Griffin Eternal" would work in a more cartoony kind of universe and style, and in one that wants to be taken serious.
well... what?
You can make a mature plot in a cartoony style. Sorry but yes you can.
Heroes III-IV were less cartoony then the current games and also had a more dead-serius style in graphics and writing, that was due to them beeing more direct and not so forcefully artistic.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 21, 2013 09:29 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
What you cannot have is a "mature" outlook with cartoony characters and factions.
As I said, I've been liking the cartoony, not so darn serious like of old better than the dead-serious and therefore sometimes involuntarily ridiculous style of Ashan - stuff like Goink and "Griffin Eternal" would work in a more cartoony kind of universe and style, and in one that wants to be taken serious.
well... what?
You can make a mature plot in a cartoony style. Sorry but yes you can.
Heroes III-IV were less cartoony then the current games and also had a more dead-serius style in graphics and writing, that was due to them beeing more direct and not so forcefully artistic.
You CAN ALWAYS make a mature plot - but you don't have to necessarily when style and setting is cartoony. Cartoony style gives you a certain artistic freedom, and you can have even more freedom by not making complete timelines and whatnot.
That's what they did with Ashan - all very mature and very serious, and their aim was to produce as mature and serious plots and stories, and that's exactly what didn't work.
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted January 21, 2013 11:56 AM |
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Edited by dkolb at 11:59, 21 Jan 2013.
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Now to the "gray" topic
Sure you may like "stereotipical" sides like evil orcs or powerhungry necromancers fighting wise wizards and noble kinghts, but there are hords of such worlds (Like Lotr or W-hammer) but how would this make this setting unique? They are still fighting with the label of beeing a WH rip-off thanks to nivals "fredom" in creature designe, so creating a common Good/Evil setting would kill the idea of "new world" even more.
Sure there is the topic of Ubi "Not beeing able to make a good story". (The last two DLC's beeing a step in the right direction). But that does not mean there setting is bad. How many stories about an evil necromancer can you wright, how many times can you send the orcs into war for pure bloodlust.
It feels like your indirectly saying that since ubisoft/nival ripped off creature designs that they should stick with this world simply because it is new, and if they now made it like HOMM3 people would feel it is the same as all sorts of other fantasy.
That seems to be what Ubisoft thinks.
And that is why they feel justified in releasing a $29.99 new expansion filled with the "highly derivitive" dark elves who are the most blatant example of what you are talking about.
I wonder what moral quandries the dark elves with have? Perhaps they will have two languishing campaigns about perhaps feuding blood-furies and partway through the adventure they will meet a minotaur who interjects with "MOOOO!" at comically appropriate times!
It really feels like Ubisoft did make a very beautiful and artistic world and has been sabotaging it through the story.
You asked how much about an evil necromancer can you write and how many barbarians stories? The answer is thousands if your creative and clever enough.
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"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 21, 2013 01:07 PM |
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How many stories about an evil necromancer can you wright, how many times can you send the orcs into war for pure bloodlust.
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You asked how much about an evil necromancer can you write and how many barbarians stories? The answer is thousands if your creative and clever enough.
Yes, Waerjak's campaign from Heroes IV is quite a nice example. In it Barbarians are not depicted as power-hungry, stupid hordes (well at least those who are guided by Waerjak), but are shown as a beat-up, confused and persecuted group after the cataclysm that is trying to find it's own place in the new world. It sound a bit similar to Heroes 6 orc, but believe me it's not. There's more to the story like dramatic decisions which Waerjak must make in order to save his people, at the cost of his personal matters...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 21, 2013 01:36 PM |
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How does Sir Christian's castaway antics fare against the comic relief characters of H6?
I only cheated myself through the campaign just to see the cutscenes, but I do remember them being funny,
what with the constant dancing natives, coconut-throwing monkeys and Christian just standing there, looking super concentrated.
I was thinking the same. Goink wasn't much less serious than the goblins of that campaign  Of course that was more of a joke campaign but H3 was not without its silly humour. I'm sure you remember the signs or dialogues from various campaigns.
This boat belongs to Yog. You no touch. Touch and die.
We don't like you. You die now.
We eat barbarians for breakfast.
Go kiss the south end of a donkey.
The list goes on H3 had plenty of silliness around, it just.. did not go overboard. H6 has passed on to the realm of sheer cheesiness.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 21, 2013 01:38 PM |
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@dkolb it may seem to you tha way, but I'm actually saying, that the world Ubi is creating suffered from a "Stereotipical" art syndrome which is still the brands burdem. The game should not also suffer from the same problem in "Setting".
I'm not the person who can or even could dare to say, if Ubi should keep this setting, or move to a new one. All I personaly think is, that it is good that ubi droped the old one. Not because I did not like it, but for the solo reason, that I do not think Ubi could take care of it, or even manage to expand it in a good way.
I Also did not say barbarian, but blood-thirsty orcs. Thats a difference;-). But I understand your point. The problem is, I do not belive ubi's writers and brand coordinators are capable of this task. So I would rather give them some time to find the right way of writing for them.
@blob2
Well I may be wrong, but what you described sounds rather "gray" to me.
Edit:
If I may start a slightly different topic
Was all the voice acting in the dialogues really needed? I think it would be much better if there was none. Well partially since in that case I would have to read those horrific translations..
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted January 21, 2013 02:04 PM |
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Edited by DarkLord at 14:23, 21 Jan 2013.
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yes there was always a good sense of humor in HoMM series
it added a flavor to game, but it was the right amount of it!
in Heroes 6 its overdone and its just way too much cheesy stupid jokes
the goblin can attempt to be funny, but not all throughout the campaign
the "azzie" dialogue in Kirills campaign is just ridiculous
and i can go on with examples ..
too much its just too much, especially when its on such a low level..
+ thinking "color-wise"
ubi paint factions all the colours but they just end up being gray
and grey colour = dull
if they aim for diverse feeling
they should add spots of different colour,
rather then repainting it to just gray!
what i mean that "white"(good) faction
should remain white, but in some cases have black spots!
meaning some heroes, characters and etc.
but still should remain a good faction overall!
and vice verse for "black"(bad) factions!
but for example what H6 achieved in the end that
you cant see honor, nobility in Haven anymore
Stronghold does not have the wildness, freedom, power, real feel of barbarians
Sanctuary is not really about the peace, wisdom and "sanctuary"
Inferno doesnt feel like hellish force bringing chaos and destruction
Necromancers just dont seem evil, scary enough anymore..
and factions must still have the original feeling
give the associations that they were intended to..
what we get instead
Haven - full of fanatics or "evil" angels
Barbarians - honorable orcs fighting for freedom
Sanctuary - coldblooded samurais
Inferno - confused demons fighting for "demonic democracy"
Necromancers - philosophical cult, betraying each other from time to time!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 21, 2013 02:09 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 14:12, 21 Jan 2013.
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If I may start a slightly different topic
Was all the voice acting in the dialogues really needed? I think it would be much better if there was none. Well partially since in that case I would have to read those horrific translations..
Feel free.
I personally liked the narration in-between scenarios, or at least I didn't find them offensive.
Dialogues (and cutscenes) in the scenario itself, not so much.
Much better with a box of text that disappears with the press of a button.
Edit: H3 and H6 have the same amount of votes somehow 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 21, 2013 06:06 PM |
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Haven - full of fanatics or "evil" angels
As opposed to the pretty secular for a regular medieval faction Knight/Castle.
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Barbarians - honorable orcs fighting for freedom
Mr. Hack would probably crush them, see them driven before him and hear the lamentation of their women in the name of freedom. 
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Sanctuary - coldblooded samurais
... from a Hollywood movie.
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Inferno - confused demons fighting for "demonic democracy"
... with combined IQ lower than the Orc village idiot's.
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Necromancers - philosophical cult, betraying each other from time to time!
... who are also more self-righteous than Haven.
Anyway, in Ashan, despite the attempts to make the dark lighter and the light darker, one way or another you end up with stereotypes. Just because you've made a zealot out of a necromancer instead of your regular knight doesn't mean that you've made an interesting zealot. You still need to make him an interesting character - and there are still zero such characters in Ashan.
On the other hand, many more blatant stereotypes are kept and worshipped. Demons are supposed to represent some chaotic freedom but that never goes beyond this declaration. You have you regular world destroyers who can't figure out why exactly they want the world destroyed and are totally unable to spawn a character who is not self-destructive, betrayal-prone and in most cases totally incompetent. It fails both as an antagonist faction and as a "grey" faction.
And of course the whole background is a total disaster in the first place. Asha and Urgash are painfully generic deities which are called "dragons" because the dragons are OMG cool and all mid-teens are going to OMG like them (OMG). There is no mystery behind the creation of the world, no philosophy, no explanation, in short no reason to use even a single brain cell to think about it. The short version of the whole thing is "Asha and Urgash fought, then then the other races appeared and started fighting" and it is no more exciting that the longer one.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 21, 2013 07:29 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 19:33, 21 Jan 2013.
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Anyway, in Ashan, despite the attempts to make the dark lighter and the light darker, one way or another you end up with stereotypes. Just because you've made a zealot out of a necromancer instead of your regular knight doesn't mean that you've made an interesting zealot. You still need to make him an interesting character - and there are still zero such characters in Ashan.
And that's the main reason Ashan is so cheesy. There are no interesting characters. There is no reason for the plot to be "Incepcion"-like as long as characters are well designed.
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And of course the whole background is a total disaster in the first place. Asha and Urgash are painfully generic deities which are called "dragons" because the dragons are OMG cool and all mid-teens are going to OMG like them (OMG).
I'm no teen, yet I'm all OMG as long as there are dragons  It's actually a nice change from all those fantasy games with "human" gods (it's not original, yet it's not that popular either)
As you said yourself it is only a background, so why do we need a complicated pantheon of gods if those are not even presented in the Ashan Heroes games (there are only a couple of avatars here and there). Why do they (Ubi that is) need to bother with it? There is only a handful of players who are interested in Ashan's lore, the rest don't give a rats ass about this whole lore, they only want to play the game (which is of course not a reason to make a bland plot, but sadly, that's how it works). So we have a basic setting, and now it's up to the devs to make a likeable plot with interesting enough characters, which are not present in Heroes 5 or 6 I'm afraid (with a few small exceptions maybe). There were no gods (well, they didn't manifest at least)in Heroes 4, yet it's plot (or rather characters) is praised by many for being the best in the series...
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted January 23, 2013 07:01 AM |
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Edited by dkolb at 07:02, 23 Jan 2013.
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@dkolb
I think you missunderstood Kiril's story and even it's outcome.
Just finished his campaign.
Will admit that the ending was pretty good.
The missions leading up to it were pretty bleh.
____________
"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"
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