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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Questions about marriage?
Thread: Questions about marriage? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted February 13, 2013 08:41 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 20:47, 13 Feb 2013.

Questions about marriage?

Marriage is still something that is very common, certainly more in conservative families, countries and areas.

Marriage for me is nothing more than a business contract, a way to ensure that two willing partners are comitted to a specific cause.
If one of them or both of them do not want each other, the effects of breaking the contract take place and divorce occurs.

Personally, I think marriage is a relic of  the past and everything wrong with a couple.
Materializing or creating a bond with somebody emotionally is not a good way to make business contract because emotions shift and or change rapidly or are affected very rapidly.

On the other hand, because of love, the contract or marriage "Condiions" are usually an issue that couples tend to ignore.
Starting a marriage with conditions like "Husband's property belogns to him after divorce" might enlist negative emotions in a marriage.

Why should people create a bond with somebody, that might have permanent financial implications, over something as temporary as love?
Imo, there is no point for the sake of love. It does not make sense to marry if a couple has no other plans except that they love each other.

There are so many divorced couples in the developed world and to me, it is an interesting trend. People divorce for little matters

I do understand that marriage is there to enforce a comittment towrads a better future to a couple and , if there are, its children.
Afterall, two persons do survive better than one.
In the west, people are terminating marriages for little reasons,
like: "That guy was a virgin for too long, something must be wrong with him..." or "Omg, he forgot the day we met".
At least for me, this reasons seem trivial. Marriage seems pointless in the west.

In underdeveloped countries, marriages are rarely happy or good. They are a source problems(Violence, criminal children, etc). They seem to be even worse than in the west.

So, what is the point of marriage?

What is the point of love? You love people for some time and certainly, more often than not, people lose interest after 2 or 4 years.
Beyond, gratifying personal needs, love has no other point.

So, what do you think of marriage?

Do you think there is a point in it?

Do you think that marriage mostly leads to unhappy families?

Do you think that marriage is good for achieving personal goals? What about goals that concern the partner aswell?
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"

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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted February 13, 2013 09:26 PM
Edited by master_learn at 21:43, 13 Feb 2013.

Quote:
Marriage for me is nothing more than a business contract, a way to ensure that two willing partners are comitted to a specific cause.


Speaking about marriage and buisness and how one affects the other...
This is example how buissness destroys marriage.
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 13, 2013 10:07 PM

I think, that marriage is an optional commitment, people may or may not voluntarily make.
It makes sense that a commitment is burdened with consequences - that's the point.
In today's 1st world societies there is absolutely no need anymore to actually marry because the economical/legal/children part is acknowledged for non-committed forms of living-together. THAT in turn means, that whether you are married or not, IF you have a meaningful realtionship with another person, both of them acquire certain rights by that, married or not.

Which means that you have the wrong idea here. Today, our society is making sure that every kind of serious relationship has economical consequences, married or not.

That means, that a marriage isn't that much more "stable" anymore. Times have changed, and the number of divorces simply reflect a couple of those changes. The main problem is that people are marrying/child-birthing too early. Generally, you need a lot of experience to find someone that you can live with satisfactorily  for a long time. That's the reason, why TODAY "second relationships" really shine. People coming together with 40 or so can build much more stable relationships, statistics say, but unfortunately that's kinda not so good an age for having children.
THAT inturn means, that early relationships are necessary for  racial survival.

Of course there are technological ways to rectify that, and we have a lot of interesting SF stuff dealing with that and with the problems coming with THAT.

Which brings us back to the point that marriage is an option to take or not to take, and as with everything the key is that society does its utmost to allow people to make INFORMED decisions ...

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 13, 2013 10:19 PM

Quote:

In today's 1st world societies there is absolutely no need anymore to actually marry


Emm... Banks considers if the couple is married or not before borrowing money. With a single income from average job (99% of jobs) you will never be able to buy a house, seeing the actual prices.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 13, 2013 10:29 PM

Depends on the income, right?

Of course I can tell only for Germany, but here the only question is whether you have a regular income or not, that is, whether you have A JOB. God forbid you are a freelancer, because in that case you can be married with a harem - you won't get the money lent you need to buy a house.

Interest rates have been declining for an eternity now, and it's absolutely no problem whatsoever to get a bank loan as an individual provided you got a job. I think, the interest is 2% currently. So with a 1% redemption per year and an interest rate of 2% you have to pay 600 € a month to pay back a 240.000 € loan.
You'll pay that as a rent anyway, living alone.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 13, 2013 10:48 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 22:55, 13 Feb 2013.

Depends also on houses prices: in France this goes around 300k euros right now (+10% every year prices inflation). You won't make it with 600 euros/month to the bank (interest: 3,75, this means around 1700 euros/month for 20 years timeline). As thumb rule, banks here do not borrow unless you got 4000 euros/month income, which is rather reserved to a few only. But if married, you can make it.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 13, 2013 11:11 PM

For all I know in France there are massive differences in house costs depending on where you live. Paris you can't pay, province is cheap.

Of course another question is, why you would want to buy a HOUSE, being alone? The cleaning alone...

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 13, 2013 11:27 PM

Well, if not invested, the money spent is wasted 100%. Besides this, "alone" is almost always a temporary condition. Now with gay marriage voted in France, I have twice the choice I had before (sarcasm).

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 13, 2013 11:39 PM

But this is an economic issue and has nothing to do with marriage.

If you are alone, you don't need a house. A condo is way better. A condo is also much cheaper. Considering that you make the most out of "investment", if you compare monthly rates.
Looking at the bottom line, though, a solid real estate fund is just as good here.

In any case you do not need to marry, neither in France nor in Germany, to buy real estate. You ma yget a good condo for as much as a 400 € pay per month, which you can afford easily, if alone and in a job, because that's what you pay minimum for a comparable flat.

You do not want a house as a single.

So I suppose in France this reason for marrying may be taken as an excuse.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 14, 2013 01:03 AM

Ok, first I did not imply people get married because a house, this is a possible bonus of the marriage. Then I don't see how you came to the conclusion that being alone, you don't need a house. Everyone needs a house or you prefer to waste a big percentage of your income to enrich some house owner?

Assuming that two people feel attracted beyond the average, the marriage may become a life project between many others. Getting married will ensure a lot of secondary projects resulting from, like kids (continuity), acquire a house (safety), build common wealth (legacy).

All of them can be done outside the marriage as well, but the law is clearly giving a lot of extra prerogative if married. The marriage is based on reliance between two persons, for the best and for the worst. Being married is also a way to reduce the risk of bad individual surprises, as losing your job, becoming handicapped or whatever may disable you: the law is requiring the other to help the one in the need. I still see the marriage having strong arguments and not on the declining side.

Then a lot of young people get into the marriage simply because of their passion, they feel they can't live without the other, and then search for a safety lock. When you are married, the chances the other goes away with the pizza man/girl are reduced because of consequences.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 14, 2013 01:37 AM

In principle marriage as a contract is probably unnecessary.  I certainly don't hold with the religious aspect of it.  However in practice it is vital, if only to offer certain financial and legal protections to children and spouses.  In addition marriage as an institution is so integrated into our taxation and legal system that it would be virtually impossible to rid ourselves of it.

Still, as someone who is happily married, I think there's a certain symbolic importance to it.  At the very least, it offers a comforting illusion of stability.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted February 14, 2013 03:56 AM

Your life stability is an illusion? Are there, like, drug cartels operating in your bedroom while you sleep?
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 14, 2013 04:09 AM
Edited by artu at 04:24, 14 Feb 2013.

I think even if you take out the economical and social advantages of it, people will still want it for the ceremonial stuff. People love relying on tradition and as long as as it's something personal, harmless and joyful like marital ceremony, why abandon it? Let them.
I consider all the proposing part even romantic, call me old fashioned on this one.

As long as people don't interfere with couples living together without marital bondage, it's fine. I know it's not an issue anymore in most of the west, but where I live, outside of big cities, it's still something considered shameful, even in big cities it depends on the district, and especially for girls it's not something you talk to your father about if you're living with a person out of wedlock.

And this is the best humor on marriage ever:
Maxs Dark Secret

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 14, 2013 09:44 AM

Quote:
Ok, first I did not imply people get married because a house, this is a possible bonus of the marriage. Then I don't see how you came to the conclusion that being alone, you don't need a house. Everyone needs a house or you prefer to waste a big percentage of your income to enrich some house owner?

I said, if you are living alone, a house is too big - who is going to clean it? What does one person do with 150-250 sqmeters? That's why you don't buy a house, when you are alone, you buy a condo (a flat). In Germany, the prices for Condos are very different depending on where you are living. Munich is the most expensive town to live in (but also has very high wages); there you'll have to pay an average price of 3500 € per sqm for a condo, however, there are enough towns and areas where you can buy a condo for one third of that price. Generally, you should be ableto acquire a condo for a price below 2000 € per sqm. If you are alone, you are well-served with a 70 sqm flat which may cost you 120.000 €. Depending on how long you want to pay for that, even with 3.75% (and in Germany you should be able to get MUCH lower interest rates, you have a monthly pay of 475-675 € which is something you would probably pay for rent as well.
So I don't see any problem to acquire a home, even if you are alone.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm the handshake contract kind of guy, and to tell the truth, I would not want to share my life with a person I wouldn't trust to keep a commitment without a written contract.
Unfortunately that is not easy to judge when you are young. Nor can you know what may happen, what life has in store for you and how much strain will be put on the good intentions that will be there.

That means, if you are young, marriage is a fine "commitment test", before you start doing something that can't be easily undone - like getting kids, sharing the workload (one working, one doing the rest, for example, although today it doesn't habe to be that way).

However, there are reasons, why the divorce rate is so high. A very important one is "differently developing life environment". You may, for example meet while both are studying, with everything being fine and lots of common interests. However, once the job life starts, time together and common interests may rapidly decrease, and 15 to 20 years later, when the kids are readying to leave the house, you may suddenly find that your life has virtually nothing in common anymore and you actually don't know each other.

Of course, IF something like that happens, it will happen whether you are married or not, which means, that a high divorce rate isn't a point against marriage.

Since everyone can put down a marriage contract that will detail what happens in case of a divorce, the only problem that is difficult to handle here are KIDS. They way our society works and functions, I think it's safe to say that a married couple with kids should under no circumstances divorce, before the kids are old enough to handle that, which would be something like 18 or so.
Of course this is somewhat unrealistic, but with a view on the kids, a marriage divorced significantly before that has been a massive and even tragical error.
With a differently organized society, say, bigger houses with bigger families spanning over more generations (the way it was earlier), where there would be more psychological parents, more people to attach to for kids, this wouldn't be such a problem, but the way it is, it is one.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted February 14, 2013 12:42 PM

Marriage is without meaning or "outdated" only to those who don't value what marriage is.

Marriage is not "just a piece of paper."  Making vows in front of God and man committing to a lifetime of love takes your relationship to a new level, the ultimate relationship between two people.   Marriage is a celebration of the personal choice of giving all that you are to the other person,  a celebration of receiving the same commitment from your spouse, a celebration of romantic love, and a celebration of life-long companionship as the two people continue to share and grow together through the joys and sorrows of life's journey.  A proclamation of commitment and thanksgiving to and for the other person and a vow to God, the community, and each other.

In a marriage you are to leave your old life behind. All other relationships become secondary to the primary relationship with your spouse. You have a new life and commit to your spouse above all others. Marriage is a "cleaving" to each other, as the Bible puts it. The married couple is the "whole" and the husband and wife are "parts" of that "whole." Such a relationship is much more serious, romantic, and intimate than "shacking up" could ever be.

Marriage promotes emotional stability, family stability, and financial stability. Marriage is a bedrock of a stable society. It is good for the husband, wife, kids, and society at large. With an erosion of marriage comes an erosion of society.

And of course marriage is more than just a human institution. Marriage is God's idea.  His gift to mankind and to people individually for the benefit of the husband, wife, kids, and society.  The rite of marriage is a "sacrament" in which the two people become one in a spiritual bond that is not granted by "shacking up." "Shacking up" resembles the "real thing" of marriage but is a hollow reflection of it.
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Revelation

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 14, 2013 04:54 PM

Quote:
Do you think there is a point in it?


That depends on the realities of the two different people making the vow together. If one or both are only doing what they've been told or "playing a role in a fantasy" and are not making a life-long commitment....nope; it would be better if they ran away from each other very fast. However if they've acted like they were mature, made their own decisions and had children, then the "point" is to grow-up and take care of each other and the children.

Quote:
Do you think that marriage mostly leads to unhappy families?


Unhappy people make unhappy families...and unhappy loners.

Quote:
Do you think that marriage is good for achieving personal goals? What about goals that concern the partner as well?


In general I would say no but that's because my view is probably different than most. <imo> Marriage is the true foundation of the church and therefore not about one's self at all. Christ said; "I am wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name"; (note: I only quoted Christ because I need to show the source of my belief about the basis of marriage) Marriage is not about one person, it is about a small group of people in the end.
Since the bedrock&basis for the institution is overlooked by both those outside and inside the church, it outright fails half the time and much of what's left is unhappy unions doing the right thing and staying together for the sake of the kids.

Marriage is far more than a rehearsed dreamy statement called a vow, it is a lifelong sacred commitment that one will stand by another no matter what lies ahead in life and I mean no matter what.
Today is Valentine's day and I have my forever mate by my side. Together, we've lived through hell-like situations many times and I can honestly say we are as happy as two people can be in the life we've been dealt. For us, that's as good as it gets. Although that sounds rather dull and maybe on the outside it appears so but on the inside?; it is a blessing without equal.

I think all the myself-stuff needs to be well-handled before ever considering; taking/making that forever vow.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 14, 2013 05:54 PM

Quote:
Marriage is far more than a rehearsed dreamy statement called a vow, it is a lifelong sacred commitment that one will stand by another no matter what lies ahead in life and I mean no matter what.


I think it is important to emphasize that most of the things you are emphasizing are not specific to marriage. I, for example, talked about the ceremonial part or the proposal because they ARE specific to marriage. However, the things you talk about, commitment, being there for each other on bad times, companionship can be also true for people who are not legally or religiously married. Living together doesn't necessarily mean you are just shacking up. If the ceremonial part is boring to you, you may indeed just move in together.

I remember living with a girl for a year and the level of intimacy in our conversations were well beyond many married couples I know. Maybe a year is too short to give as an example here but what I'm arriving at is there is no guarantee that the institution of marriage will bring people closer and in modern times it sometimes works on opposite direction. Everything depends on the couple, so to say marriage is necessary  can be  as misleading as saying it's just a business contract.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 15, 2013 03:23 AM

Life was wonderful, then I turned 7 and my parents got married, life was still wonderful. Marriage didn't make any difference. Maybe it's just a unique case though.

Like JJ notes, divorce is a big issue, and I did personally experience the effect of divorce as many of my classmates were from splitted families or families which would split while we went in the younger parts of public school, around age of 9 or so.
It had a dramatic effect on my former friends, who became very unpleasant.

I don't think marriage is a business contract. At least when viewed that way it sets oneself up for disappointment. After all, remember the business contract part first takes effect should the contract be cancelled. Such a view would lead to an expectation of a divorce, as I see it.

Further more, I think it's important to differentiate love and being in love. Being in love is depicted by emotions you likely have no control over and is probably temporary, love on the other hand, at least the way I try to understand it, is something YOU decide, and therefore it's only temporary if you decide it to be so.

To answer the questions in the opening post:
So, what is the point of marriage?
I am not sure. I have not made any plans on getting married, however I imagine it'll mark a clear separation event between the life before and the life after the moment of marriage. This event, I imagine, is supposed to illustrate that you're not alone in the world anymore, you're now two working as one, that you've decided it's love, so have your partner, and as such, your greatest joy in life is to ensure the happiness of each other.

Then again, that's probably exaggerated, as the child is part of this, but I am a child too, so I should not feel alone, and as such I should not have the idea of going from one to two. Maybe it's a move where you go from being the child of your parents into the husband of your wife? It's really hard to tell when you haven't been through all that, and my guesses may be way off.
Do you think there is a point in it?

Do you think that marriage mostly leads to unhappy families?
No.

Do you think that marriage is good for achieving personal goals? What about goals that concern the partner aswell?
I don't think marriage in itself is good for achieving personal goals, as I can't see how it differentiates from having a partner you're not married to in regard of attempted to achieve some personal goals. However I'm not certain if having a partner at all is a good way of achieving personal goals. If you've common interests, then maybe, but it's a fine line to walk, and while ideally you're not just sex toys for one another, but enforces each others life and development, making each other work as a committed unit, but on the same time with the freedom to be by yourself as you please, more realistically, the modern married couple share standard couple stuff such, but not much more than that. When thinking about it, I think it's the same for a person who's not part of a couple anyway, usually having a lot of stuff he/she wants to do, but doesn't get around to do it. Attempting to achieve it through a partner would probably be even worse, as the partner probably have his/her own issues to deal with.
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Living time backwards

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 16, 2013 03:34 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Marriage is far more than a rehearsed dreamy statement called a vow, it is a lifelong sacred commitment that one will stand by another no matter what lies ahead in life and I mean no matter what.



Quote:
... can be also true for people who are not legally or religiously married.


Maybe so but the questions were about marriage and I gave my answers based on what marriage is to me. If you believe living together is just as good that's aok with me but I don't. And don't forget I also mentioned the true basis of marriage and that is church. So, as you said there is the symbolism, rites etc.

Fyi, We made our vows of personal commitment outside of the Church in our own ceremony. (based on the Bible) Month's later, we made our union public and legal by having a small church service where family and friends could attend and celebrate and of course got the "piece of paper too". But in our hearts, we were married before those latter efforts

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 16, 2013 04:42 PM

Quote:
And don't forget I also mentioned the true basis of marriage and that is church.


That's thinking way too local. Marriage existed way before the church and probably will remain long after it. Monogamy is not specific to monotheistic cultures or times. So as a subjective experience marriage can be about church to you but saying "church is the basis of marriage" is like saying Buddhism is the basis of eating healthy.

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