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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Minimum wages
Thread: Minimum wages This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 09:34 PM
Edited by xerox at 21:37, 19 Feb 2013.

Quote:
Before I put you into the Mvass Club - define "socioeconomically beneficial".


When the invested tax gives profit.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:08 PM

You mean monetary profit? Profit that would be subject to tax deduction?

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:17 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:20, 19 Feb 2013.

For instance. Tax-financed education. Obviously it will cost a lot with all teachers, books, buildings and stuff but in the end, the educated kid will grow up and get a job. After years of work, he's paid more in tax than what it costed to educate him. Now take a girl who didn't get an education. She lives in years of wellfare dependancy and ends up being a criminal who has made life miserable for both herself and everybody around her. Due to the lack of a tax-financed investment in education for her, she turned out to be an unprofitable citizen.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:19 PM

Taxes should only be spent on activities that benefit the taxpayers. For example, national defense, courts, police, etc. Taxes should not be used simply to transfer money from one part of the population to another (as in the case of welfare).
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:23 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:30, 19 Feb 2013.

Yeah, but total lack of wellfare might not be beneficial for the taxpayers. The poverty, criminalty and misery could make completly cut wellfare backlash. And to be honest, I just don't like the idea of "Every man for himself" gone to far.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:29 PM

Quote:
total lack of wellfare might not be beneficial for the taxpayers. The poverty, criminalty and misery could make completly cut wellfare backlash
And if that relation would be empirically proven, then welfare would be justified.

Quote:
I just don't like the idea of "Every man for himself" gone to far
It's not "every man for himself". It's "every man caring for those he chooses to care about, rather than being forced to care for strangers".
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:31 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:35, 19 Feb 2013.

If we can save life, we should. I realize that this isn't possible without making some people feel that there liberty has been discriminated, it has, but poor people who would be forced to die of starvation less they defile other peoples' liberty - they lose all their liberty.
Would it really be sensible to just assume that people would help those people out of goodwill?

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:43 PM

That is a misconception of the idea of liberty. Liberty is freedom from interference and the ability to not have anyone force you to do something. Liberty is non-contradictory - you cannot increase one person's liberty by decreasing another's.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 10:55 PM
Edited by xerox at 23:01, 19 Feb 2013.

But by forcing people to starve due to there being no wellfare at all, you're decreasing the liberty of those people in order to preserve more of the non-starving peoples liberty. Dead = no liberty. It's also likely that this will lead to increased crime which usually ends up discriminates other people's liberty. I think there's LOTS of better public expenditure to cut in order to return money to the people.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 19, 2013 11:12 PM

The absence of welfare isn't forcing people to starve. If you're in the wild and you can't find food, you starve, but that's just a consequence of nature - no one's initiating force against you. Same here - refusing to give someone something they haven't earned is not forcing them to do anything.

The crime reduction argument is separate, and if welfare is a cost-effective method of reducing crime, then that's a good justification for it.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 20, 2013 12:46 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 00:52, 20 Feb 2013.

We made antibiotics and computers exactly because nature's "laws" are good for nothing. Society makes nature obsolete. Going towards "nature's point of view" regarding moneymaking is extremely backwater if you ask me. Want to make it darwinistic - fine, let's start by removing nepotism and corruption from existence. I really don't understand why you want to build your perfect anarchocapitalism from dismantling the "other side". If we take away those laws that protect those who just suck at life and leave those that allow the powerful to abuse their power even more (mostly corruption), it will be a much worse world than it is at the moment. I mean, for mvass it probably wouldn't make any difference, but for me it would.

Casting aside all the economic talk, which is extremely pseudo-science, all we can say for sure is that minimum wage for US is absolutely not doing the same job as minimum wage for Poorland, or Serbia, or Bulgaria - this should be the first thing to point out. From there, we may actually start thinking on the effect minimal wage has on a chosen country.

I can speak for Poorland: minimal wage is what keeps youth from going to middle ages instead of moving out from their parents' place. Which is good. Take it away and with the amount of acceptance towards crap payments for uni graduates, you'll see a LOT of 30yo people living with their parents, unable to move out even with their partners.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 20, 2013 01:14 AM

Quote:
Chinese workers don't give a damn about work ethic, which firstly means quality, not time spent. All they know is that they will lose job if 1 minute wasted. There are no syndicates in China, no free welfare and without job you are just dead man.

About their work quality vs US, HERE is someone's experience related about.


I said nothing about quality, just to clear the air.  However, if you work 16 hour days..your attention to details might drop a bit, and also the corporations there don't really care about quality either.  As long as they make a profit, they could care less that the junk they put out falls apart in a week.  Stop buying the junk for cheap prices, and this would change fast.  But people care more about how much it cost then if it is disposable or quality.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 20, 2013 01:28 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 01:42, 20 Feb 2013.

Big slap in the face from Titan (US tires producing) to french socialist government.
Can't find in english so I paste screen.


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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 20, 2013 08:17 AM

If that's true, this is not a socialist government but a slackialist government. Completely different ideology.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2013 10:24 AM
Edited by xerox at 10:31, 20 Feb 2013.

One of my favorite swedish libertarians actually wrote a book several years ago where he predicts and outlines a scenario where a protectionistic, socialist France ends up collapsing due to said protectionism and too much unfinanced wellfare. Does he describe Sweden as becoming a globalist, libertarian paradise of stars, stripes and unicorns? Yes - but the other half of the book is written by a communist and the point of the book is for these two people to present their ideal societies.

DF: I think corruption is a different issue. Keep in mind that tax money often has the starring role in corruption...

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2013 10:30 AM

Quote:
For instance. Tax-financed education. Obviously it will cost a lot with all teachers, books, buildings and stuff but in the end, the educated kid will grow up and get a job. After years of work, he's paid more in tax than what it costed to educate him. Now take a girl who didn't get an education. She lives in years of wellfare dependancy and ends up being a criminal who has made life miserable for both herself and everybody around her. Due to the lack of a tax-financed investment in education for her, she turned out to be an unprofitable citizen.


Yeah, sure, but that's not a definition. Name at least a real existing tax-financed thing that isn't "socioeconomical beneficial".

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2013 10:35 AM

Example: my government is giving families who share the amount of days they're home with their young children a bonus in parental benefits that equals about 5000$

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2013 10:43 AM

Quote:
Example: my government is giving families who share the amount of days they're home with their young children a bonus in parental benefits that equals about 5000$
"Share the amount of days they're home with their young children"? What is that supposed to mean?

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2013 10:46 AM

When you get a child you don't need to work. If mum and dad or dad and dad or mum and mum share those free days equally, they get an equality bonus.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted February 20, 2013 11:03 AM

So you would abolish the parental leave? Not even sure why I am bothering with this conversation though
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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