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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Explosions at the Boston Marathon
Thread: Explosions at the Boston Marathon This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 18, 2013 11:07 PM

Quote:
But acting like we live in a world of demons versus angels and those guys are the demons is not the truth. I wish it was as easy as that, it is not.
In some case you can, and this is one.

You know, I'm not against terror as a means of war. Why SHOULD I? A war is a war until ALL sides declare it over, and if you are stuck in it, well. There are not exactly rules.

There are enough examples - even in the Bible. I mean, the 7 plagues, what are they if not a war of terror?

However, terror attacks usually have some kind of purpose. It's just a means - like dropping the bomb to Hiroshima. Extortion, you might say. In my mind, there is a difference here that depend on whether you defend something with your terror attacks or whether you want to conquer or gain something. If you are invaded, and you fight a guerilla war against the invaders - well. In any case a terror attack cannot just have the purpose to just kill someone, because if that's the purpose than the purpose is just murder. Whether you plant a bomb or two at the Boston Marathon or simply lay fire to some random building where lots of people live - arson -, it amounts to the same thing. Wanton random murder. Which is by no means the same thing than terror.

And since this bombing attack doesn't amount to any other purpose than  that, it IS just that: simple murder. It might just be a different kind of school shooting.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted April 18, 2013 11:08 PM

Elodin/Mythical, your country/government is creating by its (unasked) actions a LOT of  tensions in specific parts of the world. If you deny that, then there is nothing to discuss indeed. I know now that americains are not such naive to start wars based on lies, actually they are smart: they know that such wars will create huge profits and a better situations for them and the "we bring freedom, light, democracy" are just the usual bla bla to temper the others which will not ask for more.

So, to make it clear, while I condemn and find sick such actions, I don't buy the "we are innocent" because is simply not true. For a big part of the world today, america is all but innocent, but this doesn't mean automatically anti-americain stand. You choose a way which is dangerous, don't complain when thorns are hurting you.
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artu
artu


Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 18, 2013 11:20 PM

Quote:
If you are invaded, and you fight a guerilla war against the invaders - well. In any case a terror attack cannot just have the purpose to just kill someone, because if that's the purpose than the purpose is just murder.


Their purpose is attrition. Think of Spain, they bombed the trains and Spain said "count me out" on this war. Now America wont probably say that because, let's be honest, it has profit in that region much more than Spain and its economy is tied to it. Jihadists ideology may be mindless, (as I stated before, they make life hell even for their own people) but their tactics are not mindless. We are talking about organized attacks here not individuals going berserk.

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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 18, 2013 11:40 PM

First off, you are mistaken about one thing.  Assuming that I support America being in other parts of the world.  I don't.  My stance has and always will be that we should take care of US first, and only when ASKED by a nation to intervene.  That goes for our generous AID to these nations also.  We have enough troubles ourselves, lets take care of us first. If an american soldier uses a bomb, then runs and hides..he/she is a coward.  We do have to fight a different fight then a straight fight, because that is how others fight.  I am not stupid or naive.

However, that kid did nothing to be a target.  These people didn't drop the bombs or whatever.  Go after MILITARY targets.  Oh wait, they are cowards and know that there would be more danger in that.  Sorry, forgot to consider how big of cowards they are.  If an innocent gets hurt around a MILITARY target..that is part of war.  I might not like it, because I think war is stupid, but I am not naive enough to think that it will stop.

You can candy coat it however you want.  If you give excuses for this, you are justifying the cowards actions. This was not even close to a military target.  Just the act of pure wrongness and evil.  It's pretty cut and dry.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted April 18, 2013 11:46 PM

If they had the logistic and the material as US does, they would probably go for military targets. But, since US starts war only vs countries who can't afford it, striking highly protected military targets is out of their range. Guerrilla is a long time used war tactic, it hurts most because it always goes for something you can't replace, as human lives.

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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 18, 2013 11:53 PM

Quote:
If they had the logistic and the material as US does, they would probably go for military targets. But, since US starts war only vs countries who can't afford it, striking highly protected military targets is out of their range. Guerrilla is a long time used war tactic, it hurts most because it always goes for something you can't replace, as human lives.



Usually it is one of our allies who ask us for help.  We are their allies, we have a treaty, we honor it.  However, I will try this again.  Maybe I can make it simpler.  You are making assumptions.  You do know what assuming does don't you?  Makes an *** out of you.  You are assuming that this was done by somebody who is part of some Foreign military, and not just some crackpot who knows how to make bombs.  You are also assuming that with 400 million people, the few that were killed will even make a dent in our numbers.  Lastly you are assuming that the person who did this actually has some 'reason' for doing what they are doing.  That is a lot of assumptions.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 18, 2013 11:59 PM

This single case may indeed turn out to be an exception, who knows... But if it does, that does not change the argument here because we are talking about a pattern.

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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 19, 2013 12:21 AM

And it doesn't matter if it is an exception or not.  Only vile human beings would do something like this.  Which is my entire point.  There is absolutely no excuse, no matter how you sugar coat it.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted April 19, 2013 12:21 AM
Edited by Elodin at 00:24, 19 Apr 2013.

Quote:

But in real world, bad guys turn into bad guys for some REASONS unless they are psychopats and these are not psychopats, they are kamikazes.



No, bad guys chose to be bad guys. They are self-centered egotistical people who have chosen to become who they are by their every word, thought, and deed. You start programming yourself today for who you will be years from now. The criminal made the criminal. The terrorist made the terrorist.

America is in no way responsible for her citizens being murdered on 9-11, at the Boston marathon, or any other time terrorists  have attacked us.

Continuing to say America is to blame is mad and maddening.

Quote:

Elodin/Mythical, your country/government is creating by its (unasked) actions a LOT of  tensions in specific parts of the world. If you deny that, then there is nothing to discuss indeed. I know now that americains are not such naive to start wars based on lies, actually they are smart: they know that such wars will create huge profits and a better situations for them and the "we bring freedom, light, democracy" are just the usual bla bla to temper the others which will not ask for more.



No, America does not start wars "for profit." If you mean terrorsts are pissed we are going after them. Yeah, I'd imagine they are. I grow sick of all the anti-America crap.

If America were such an exploiter and invader as the anti-Americans claim we'd own the world and all non-American's we be our slaves. We'd not have to work a day of our lives.

But yeah, America a prime factor in the spread of democracy and she gets so very much hate for it from Marxists of all flavors who want everyone enslaved to the State-god. And of course from jihadists who want everyone to bow to their god and live under the heel of an Islamic cleric.

Quote:

So, to make it clear, while I condemn and find sick such actions, I don't buy the "we are innocent" because is simply not true. For a big part of the world today, america is all but innocent, but this doesn't mean automatically anti-americain stand. You choose a way which is dangerous, don't complain when thorns are hurting you.



America is innocent and the people of 9-11 were innocent and the people at the Boston marathon were innocent.

What I find sick is people continuing to blame the victim instead of the predator. Excusing the predator and blaming the victim is typical of the left though.

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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 19, 2013 12:32 AM
Edited by Mytical at 00:33, 19 Apr 2013.

Well I for the most part agree with Elodin (the world must be ending!).  Except for the 'left' comment.  Left, right, upside down or diagonal it doesn't matter.  I am for the most part 'left' because I believe that the LGBT community should have the right to marry and many other things.  However, in this we are unified.  Others can make all the 'excuses' for this behavior they want.  We have free speech, go ahead.  This is pure wrong, regardless how you cut it.  Putting whipped cream on feces pie doesn't make it any more edible.

Oh, one other thing I don't agree on with Elodin.  I am not naive enough to think America is innocent of everything.  I know that to not be true.  However, THESE Americans were just running a marathon.  So they were innocent.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted April 19, 2013 12:34 AM

Quote:
If America were such an exploiter and invader as the anti-Americans claim we'd own the world and all non-American's we be our slaves.


You really believe whatever you click, are you? China would kick ass, and several countries have nukes, so if only they tried you would probably write letters on some toilet paper using a piece of coal right now, because nothing is going to survive to a 3rd world war.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 19, 2013 12:34 AM
Edited by Corribus at 14:13, 19 Apr 2013.

This from Shyranis, who couldn't post because of the thread's temporary closure:

Looks like the Boston bombers were a couple of pasty looking white boys.

I wonder how that maybe changes the line of discussion, hmmm?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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posted April 19, 2013 02:37 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 14:40, 19 Apr 2013.

From what I read, the two guys are from Chechnya and one of them is already killed.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 19, 2013 02:45 PM

Quote:
This from Shyranis, who couldn't post because of the thread's temporary closure:

Looks like the Boston bombers were a couple of pasty looking white boys.

I wonder how that maybe changes the line of discussion, hmmm?


That's what my guess was as well:

Quote:
It might just be a different kind of school shooting.


It just hadn't got the earmarks of a "real" terror bombing attack.

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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Scourge of God
posted April 19, 2013 03:22 PM

Quote:
Looks like the Boston bombers were a couple of pasty looking white boys.


Suspects.*
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted April 19, 2013 03:45 PM
Edited by Elodin at 15:45, 19 Apr 2013.

One bomber dead with the other possibly surrounded in a house or at least contained within a police perimeter.

Clicky
Quote:

Multiple explosions echoed from inside a house as police in Boston massed inside a perimeter set up to contain the remaining suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing.

The situation was fluid, and the latest development came in the city's Watertown section after a chaotic night of mayhem that included the murder of a Massachusetts Institute of Technology police officer and a shootout with police, authorities said early Friday.

Police believe the two suspects from Monday's terror attack are brothers, possibly from Chechnya, according to sources who spoke to Fox News. The man on the loose was identified as Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, 19, of Cambridge, Mass. They are believed to have been here for 'several years,' sources said.

....

"We believe this to be a terrorist," Davis said in a press conference. "We believe this to be a man who's come here to kill people. We need to get him in custody."

The Middlesex district attorney said the two men are suspected of killing the MIT police officer on campus late Thursday, then stealing a car at gunpoint and later releasing its driver unharmed. Hours earlier, police had released photos of the marathon bombing suspects and asked for the public's help finding them.

The suspects threw explosives from the car as police followed it into Watertown, according to the district attorney's news release. The suspects and police exchanged gunfire, and one of the suspects was critically injured and later died while the other escaped.



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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted April 19, 2013 04:15 PM
Edited by JoonasTo at 20:28, 19 Apr 2013.

According to the police the suspects are two ethnically Checnyan brothers who moved to US with their family as refugees from Dagestan back in early 2000s. The older, deceased brother was a 26 year old engineer and the younger, 19, has just finished his highschool in Cambridge, Massachusetts. American citizens both by now I presume.

What I found more interesting was that the person identifying them and giving the information to the police was actually their uncle from their father's side. Values are usually passed down from the father in Islamic culture so it seems like it was just a random idiotic idea not part of a fanatic group plan. Makes sense too, why the heck would you hate the country that gave you a better life? Not many reasons really.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 19, 2013 04:37 PM

People, a terrorist is NOT a person who randomly kills people with bombs. Such a person is just a killer.

A terrorist is a person with a political agenda who's aim is to further their agenda with violent means, which may include bombing attacks.
However, to be effective, peoples or nations or persons or organizations to be terrorized need to know about the agenda, otherwise the terror act can't be effective.

In other words - letting a bomb explode somewhere busy LOOKS like an act of terror, but isn't one as long as there is no claim of responsibility, no accusation against who knows what, the USA, Boston, whomever, and no further demand combined with further threats.

Only THEN it's terror. If that's not there, it's simple triple murder, attempted murder in a couple hundred cases and grievous bodily harm. It's in essence the same thing than a school shooting.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted April 19, 2013 06:14 PM

Quote:
According to the police the suspects are two ethnically Kirgiasian brothers who moved to US with their family as refugees from Chechnya back in early 2000s. The older, deceased brother was a 26 year old engineer and the younger, 19, has just finished his highschool in Cambridge, Massachusetts. American citizens both by now I presume.

What I found more interesting was that the person identifying them and giving the information to the police was actually their uncle from their father's side. Values are usually passed down from the father in Islamic culture so it seems like it was just a random idiotic idea not part of a fanatic group plan. Makes sense too, why the heck would you hate the country that gave you a better life? Not many reasons really.


This makes me wonder why am I still getting served 200 euros per month in Poorland with a Master's degree, while those guys can't even respect the giant I-win-life button that they were granted by moving to US.

Life ain't fair, I guess. Hey, maybe if they get the last guy, they can ship him here and take me instead?


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Elodin
Elodin


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posted April 19, 2013 07:25 PM

It appears fairly certain now bombing was jihadist.

Clicky

Quote:

Four months ago, the Boston bombing suspect, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who was killed yesterday in a shootout with police, uploaded to his YouTube Channel an eight-minute lecture by the radical Australian Muslim preacher Sheikh Feiz Mohammed denouncing the Harry Potter movies for glorifying and promoting paganism.

“How can you allow your children to watch this?” the sheikh demands in the table-thumping lecture. “This film glorifies, magnifies, promotes paganism…What does Harry Potter do and his devilish schoolmates, what do they do? They cast spells, learn magic, brew potions, learn how to tell the future…And this is called harmless.”

He condemns the Harry Potter movies for being built on shirk -- the sin of worshipping someone or something other than Allah.

Tsarnaev also uploaded Russian-language videos of the preacher Abdel al-Hamid al-Juhani, who has been influential on Jihadists in Chechnya and the Russian Caucuses.

....

Sheikh Mohammed appears to have been a favorite intellectual source for Chechen-born Tsarnaev. On his YouTube playlist there are 19 online videos, all are on Islamic themes and four of them are lectures by Sheikh Mohammed, who first gained international notoriety in 2005 for teaching that women who were raped only had themselves to blame.
....

A theme he has pushed frequently is that children should be encouraged to become jihadists. “We want to have children and offer them as soldiers defending Islam... Teach them this: there is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (martyr).” In 2010 the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf revealed that Sheikh Mohammad had urged his followers in the Netherlands to behead the Dutch politician Geert Wilders, who has campaigned against the Islamization of Holland.

It isn’t clear what drew Tsarnaev to Sheikh Mohammad but they both shared a passion for boxing – the Australian was a onetime a champion boxer. The sheikh returned to Australia two years ago and retained a high profile, opening Islamic centers and maintaining a big output of lectures and speeches. Last September, critics linked his teachings to a riot in Sydney over a movie mocking the Prophet Mohmmad.



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