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| Thread: Magic and Anti-Magic in Heroes VI |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted April 17, 2013 12:14 PM |
bonus applied by Doomforge on 18 Apr 2013. |
Edited by Locksley at 17:44, 19 Dec 2013.
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Magic and Anti-Magic in Heroes VI
I’ve been looking for a thread dedicated to sharing and discussing all the magical combinations and strategies Heroes VI allows – and since no such thread were to be found I decided to create one!
Some recommended related threads:
In the Favourite Element! thread you can discuss the general usefulness and coolness of schools and elementals, and also learn how to play as Magic Stronghold. Skill System Redesign became a discussion about the magic system at page 2, and in a Q & A the developers explain why the factions focus on some magic schools and not on others. There's also a thread about Might vs. Magic.
After meditating I'd like to start this magical mystery tour off by presenting my research on one of the greatest mysteries in Heroes 6 - how to REMOVE magical effects. Through playing I’ve got the impression that some things are seriously wrong so I decided to have closer look on it to see if there are any rules at all – and after systematically checking all kinds of things I conclude that it’s a complete mess.
CONTENTS
DISPELLING
- Spells, war cries and reputation abilities
- Creature abilities sorted by faction
PURGE
PURITY
DISPELLING WITH CREATURES
- Blazing Glories, Pearl Priestesses, Darkness Elementals and Faceless Puppeteers all have powers that remove effects.
GUARDIAN ANGEL
UNFETTERED
MIGHT OVER MAGIC
OPPOSITE EFFECTS
- Burning determination, despair and other morale effects
- Haste, slow and other speed effects
- Abilities affecting other stats
PETRIFICATION
IMMUNITY TO MAGIC
- Black Dragon, Celestial, Undead and others
DISCUSSION
DISPELLING
In the first two sections of the post, i.e. those about testing Dispel on hero and creature abilities, this system is used for presenting the results:
+ means that dispel works as it should, i.e. it removes the effect.
- means that dispel doesn’t remove the effect.
In general, Dispel works as it should according to its description. It removes all effects from the target(s) – i.e. both positive and negative effects from both friendly and enemy troops.
It removes:
+ Spells and effects such as immolation or soaked.
+ War cries like pressed attack or intimidation.
+ Luck and morale bonus from a Blind maiden or Rally flag on the battlefield.
- Faction abilities (Guardian Angel, Honor, Blood Rage, Invisibility) can't be dispelled.
- Heroic strikes (Soulreaver, Mark of the Heretic, Offering to Malassa) can't be dispelled.
Dispel also removes Reputation abilities from level 0 to the Ultimates. These are the things you can’t dispel:
- Inferno reputation spell of warlocks
- Resurrection’s “can’t attack/be attacked” effect
- Anathema
- Sacrifice
- Doom
- Passive abilities that are permanent: Holy Blades, Linked Gating, Mark of the Necromancer, Vampiric Embrace, Death is not the End, Bound by Death, Shadow Pact, Shadow Blessing.
Stronghold weirdness:
+ Idol of Storms’ initiative bonus can be dispelled
- Unlike Idol of Earth’s damage reduction
+ Magic heroes’ Earth and Sky can be dispelled
- Unlike Might heroes’ First Blood
+ Mother Earth’s Blessing can be dispelled
- Unlike the standard Reinforcements
+ Might over Magic can be dispelled, which is against logic.
DISPELLING CREATURE ABILITIES
It is pointless to try to understand why it is the way it is, even if we don't want to accept it.
Sanctuary
+ Spirit bond (Mizu Kami), is dispelled both from the Mizu Kami and the target, when one of the stacks is dispelled. Also, you can't do a double dispel through the bond, dispel is no positive effect.
+ Waves of renewal (Priestess)
+ Eye of the Medusa (Priestess)
+ Ferocious Wound (Wanizame)
+ Frozen caress (Yuki Onna)
- Challenged (Kensei)
- Frozen (Kirin Hailstorm), a related bug is that Frozen from Ice bolt spell can’t be dispelled either.
Haven
- Pacification (Vestal) can’t be dispelled, perhaps the world would be a better place if this was RL?
+ Searing light (Glory) is also a blinding effect, but can be removed with dispel. But unlike the Blindness spell, Searing light stays on even if the creature is attacked, which is one of the most annoying bugs in the game.
+ Blade of epiphany (Angel), the morale and iniative bonus from resurrecting can be dispelled.
Inferno
+ Enthrall (Lilim)
+ Blade of Hatred/Frenzy (Pit Lord)
+ Manic Laughter (Demented), placing dispel on demented removes their damage bonus while the Demented’s target keep their damage penalty… and the other way around.
- Eye of Gluttony (Hell Hound)
- Taste of Pain (Tormentor)
- Taunting Presence (Ravager)
- Proliferation (Breeder Mother)
Necropolis
+ Webbing Spear (Skeletal Spearman)
+ Freezing Web (Fateweaver)
+ Breath of Vermin (Putrid Lamasu)
+ Dark Embrace (Lich)
- Out of Time (Vampire lord), can’t be dispelled when you activate it and move vampires.
- Aura of Putrecence (Putrid Lamasu)
- Transfer Life (Archlich), can’t be dispelled which is extremely useful in the very common situation when you have targeted an ally for healing and realize that you also want to remove a harmful spell. Odd ability because it doesn’t have an icon on target ally.
Stronghold
+ Burning Rage (Enraged Cyclopse)
+ Earth and Sky (Dreamweavers)
- Taste of Blood (Orc warrior)
Dungeon
+ Poisoned blades (Shade)
+ Curse of shadow (Stalker)
+ Harrowing vision (Lurker)
+ Mind probe (Watcher)
+ Paralyzing sting (Manticore)
+ Corroding venom (Manticore)
+ Mind leash (Faceless puppeteer)
+ Withering breath (Dragon)
- Invisibility (Assassin), i.e. you won’t dispel it by mistake.
- Fighting spirit (Minotaur), just as it should be according to the description
- Heart of darkness (Dragon)
- Terrifying presence (Dragon)
PURGE
Purge works just like mass dispel, and also prevents positive effects to be casted on the target during the coming turns.
- This preventive effect can be removed by dispel.
- Archlich can still transfer life to purged ally.
- You can’t cast frenzy on a purged enemy.
NamelessOrder has found some Extraordinarily Weird Effects! Watch the pictures on page 3 in this thread.
- Purged Fate Weavers who are changing FROM spider shape lose their Emotionless ability so that Ravagers' Taunting Presence affects them.
- Next turn the Fate Weavers become infected by their allied Lamasus' Aura.
- "Purge also affects movement after a morale turn under purge, basically your unit has reduced movement to half. I'll give you an example: i had morale with praetorians, waited, cast purge then move them around 2 times (waited turn plus waited morale) and the next turn their maximum movement was 3 - just like morale movement limit. The effect stays. (I don't have time to investigate it properly but this is a bug that happened to me a lot). Look beneath: notice only 3 movement and no morale or purge effect."
- "Purge prohibits from using some positive abilities: e.g: one cannot use cleansing light when under purge (this might not be a bug)"
The final thing is explained by the fact that everything that gets an ICON when activated is stopped by purge. Certain activated abilities doesn't allow you to choose target: Cleansing Light, Out of Time, Spirit Bond (source) are some examples.
Purge also prevents creature abilities that are automatically triggered: For example a Purged Demented attach a manic laughter Icon on the enemy but not on himself, even if the ability is said to transfer power from the target to the demented.
Activated attack abilities work even when purged: Searing Light, Strike without return, Piercing Bolt, Dance of Decaye, Wail of the Netherworld and many others.
Purging Embalmer's Sacrifice.
The order of casting matters:
1). If A purged B's ghoul, B couldn't sacrifice the ghoul. It seems like sacrifice is a positive thing, but...
2). If B sacrificed a ghoul, and A then purged the ghoul, BOTH sacrifice and purge icons were displayed when right-clicking. Ghoul attracted damage, and became immune to positive effects.
Thanks to NamelessOrder we also know that creatures with purge do not benefit from sacrifice:
1). Lets say you purged liches and then enemy put sacrifice on vampires. You can still attack liches and there will be no damage transfer. Liches not vamps will get the dmg.
2). If the sacrifice has been already cast the purge or dispel have no effect.
PURITY
Purity removes all negative effects from all friendly troops, and also prevents negative effects to be casted on them during the coming turns.
Some bugs:
- It doesn't stop frenzy
- It removes your heroes’ petrifaction of a friendly stack
- The protection can be dispelled or purged
The_Polyglot's Warning
Word of warning: NEVER use Purity when You puppeted an enemy unit, it treats it as a friendly unit, and dispels Puppet! Similarly, Purity doesn't dispel Puppet from your own unit temporarily under enemy control.
Some warcries have a partial dispel effect, as there can apparently be only one movement modifier active on a unit at a time. (See the further discussion in the posts below on this page.)
DISPELLING WITH CREATURES
Blazing Glories, Pearl Priestesses, Darkness Elementals and Faceless Puppeteers all have powers that remove effects.
Blazing Glories
Let's start with what NamelessOrder posted below:
Cleansing Light - Each time the creature teleports, she dispels all adjacent stacks for one random effect. Dispels negative
effects from friendly stacks and positive effects from enemy stacks. cooldown: 3 turns
It's important to note that:
- glories have to teleport. If they not (like you attack without moving them), the dispel won't trigger.
- the dispelling effect triggers when they come from teleporting. So they can dispel 2 times - when they teleport to attack and when they come back from attacking. If you simply move your glories to another place on the map, you cannot dispel a creature that initially stood next to glories.
- bug: when you click on cleansing light you cannot unselect it by clicking the right mouse button or by any other way.
- cleansing ability carries on to the next turn if activated during waited faze of the combat. In other words: if one waits with glories and then activates cleansing light, the cleansing light will be active during the next turn (so you can dispel 2 times). If you have morale and waited, you can dispel with glories 3 times: the waited move, waited morale move, next turn move.
Further testing showed that:
- Blazing Glories remove mass and single target effects from all adjacent creatures, as they should (negative spells from allies, positive spells from enemies).
- They can't dispel on themselves.
What can be removed by the Glories?
- Cleansing Light works exactly like Dispel and follows all the (very odd) rules about hero and creature abilities described above in the Dispel sections. Cleansing Light also works on both friendly and hostile Black Dragons.
Waves of Renewal
Target is healed for X health and dispelled of one random negative effect
Waves of Renewal has been tested on a random sample of the negative effects (+ the most suspected ones) mentioned above, and can confirm that Waves of Renewal can remove the same negative effects that dispel can remove.
However, under certain circumstances Waves of Renewal doesn’t remove a dispellable effect at all!
First time I saw this was when the waves failed to remove the Pit Lord’s Blade of Hatred-effect (frenzy) from a stack of Kirins. After further testing I found some patterns; the order of spell casting determines whether the waves “fails” or not.
1.
Pit Lord attacks Kirin before Priestess casts Waves on Kirin  Kirin is frenzied.
2.
Priestess casts Waves on Kirin before (most likely in a previous turn) the Pit Lord attacks Kirin Kirin is cured.
3.
Kirin waits, Pit Lord attacks, Priestess casts Waves Kirin’s wait-move in first turn is normal (neither Frenzy nor Waves triggers) AND in the second turn Kirin makes a frenzied attack before being Renewed.
4.
Kirin waits, Pit Lord waits, Priestess casts Waves, Pit Lord attacks Kirin’s wait-move in first turn is normal (neither Frenzy nor Waves triggers) AND in the second turn Kirin is Renewed (which dispels the Frenzy before it triggers).
The same patterns apply to all effects that trigger when a unit’s turn begins, from both passive and activated abilities. For example: the Enraged Cyclops’s Burning Rage (fire dmg), the Putrid Lamasu’s Breath of Vermin (earth dmg), and the Hero’s immolation from the fire spells. Please note that this is a one time only thing; the Waves trigger as effect no. 2 during this "pre-action faze" and regenerate and cure the creature from a random negative effect.
Also note that effects that trigger when moving (Sky and Earth or Agony etc.) or are simple stats reductions always are removed by the Waves.
NamelessOrder noted that taunt (the most important control effect in might vs might) works like hatred (you called it "frenzy"). It belongs to the pre-action faze and the order of casting is relevant.
Remember, never use an effect on a unit which already has Waves of Renewal on it. Instead, cast it before the Priestess turn and your opponent can’t cure its stack in time.
Exceptions of great importance!
All control effects are removed no matter when the Waves are cast. Searing light, blindness, petrification, freezing web, time stasis, … the list is long.
That's good, because the key to victory when playing as Sanctuary against Magic Tears heroes often is to cast waves of renewal on Kirins (via Mizu Kami's Spirit Bond) before the Priestesses are blinded (perhaps have two stacks to be extra safe  ). Since the Kirins are going first every turn Sanctuary can always dispel control effects from other creatures during the Kirins’ turn, or suffer the consequences.
Exceptions to the exception!
Waves of Renewal can’t be cast on a creature currently controlled by the enemy via Puppet Master. Furthermore, the Terror spell always causes its target to lose a turn, and the Vestals’ Pacification allows the regeneration part to happen but a pacified creature always loses its turn. That knowledge may come in handy.
Faceless and Darkness elemental
Dark purge - The next time the Faceless Puppeteer attacks this turn, it dispels all positive effects from its target. Does not consume the Faceless Puppeteer's current turn.
Shadow Form - The Darkness elemental's attacks dispel one random positive effect from its target
Both abilities work as they should according to the descriptions, and even removes effects from Black Dragons.
A hint BTW!
Waves of Renewal, Cleansing Light and Darkness elementals remove only 1 random effect, without considering the importance of the effects. For example, soaked may be removed while serenity remains.
ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT PETRIFICATION
This is a tricky spell because even if it’s presented as a protective tears spell it can also be used on enemies, and it’s in fact coded as a NEGATIVE effect:
- Purity always removes petrification, no matter if petrification was cast on your creature by your or the enemy’s hero.
- Purge doesn’t remove petrifaction, it doesn’t matter if the enemy wanted to protect its stack or if you wanted to immobilize it.
- Dispel almost works: only mass dispel can remove petrification from enemy stacks, and the target can't be in the central square of the area (i.e. where you click). Yay!
- Glories can only remove petrification from friendly stacks, and it doesn’t matter who cast the spell.
- Dark elementals can’t remove petrification, because they can’t attack.
- Celestials, who are immune to negative effects, can’t be petrified.
- Waves of renewal can be cast on petrified unit and it will dispel it.
- Sanctuary can’t make a double petrification with spirit bond.
- Unfettered doesn’t work. I think it should: “Dispels all negative effects affecting movement, initiative, morale and might damage from all friendly creatures.”
FRENZY is also worth mentioning as it's the other spell that can be cast on both friendly and hostile stacks. It's coded as a POSITIVE effect despite its blood reputation, which means that neither you nor the opponent can cast frenzy on a stack you have purged. Since it's an instant effect its not dispellable.
GUARDIAN ANGEL
Target friendly stack becomes impervious to all harm for 1 turn
(GA 4 also resurrects a good portion of the fallen creatures in the stack)
- GA doesn't dispel, but the enemy (heroes and creatures) can't cast any negative effect on a unit with GA.
- Damage-over-time effects don't deal damage but are still active.
- Debuffs such as weakness are still active.
- GA can't be cast on unit that is purged.
- GA doesn’t stop purge, dispel etc to remove other active spells such as burning determination.
- Sentinels protetected by GA still attract a neighbour’s damage but are not hurt.
- Fate Weavers' Dance of Decay makes time go faster so that GA disappears.
UNFETTERED
Dispels all negative effects affecting Movement, Initiative, Morale and Might Damage from all friendly creatures
Unfettered works as it should. Some notable results:
- Terror is removed; a morale debuff is one of the ingredients in the mix.
- Other control spells such as blind, petrification, enthrall, searing light and so on are not removed; the movement stat is not affected.
- Frozen is bugged as always; it reduces the movement stat to zero but it can't unfettered away.
MIGHT OVER MAGIC
Decreases all damage (Magic) dealt to friendly creatures for 2 turns depending on the Hero’s Might
This means that received magic damage is reduced to 0 – no creature magic damage, no hero magic attack, no direct damage spells   – IF your enemy is a magic hero!
Enemy might heroes still have some use for their spells and magic creatures, but when facing your m.o.m. they become wimps nevertheless.
OPPOSITE EFFECTS
Some of these things about how opposite effects work when they’re applied to the same creature were mentioned in the discussion below on page 1 back in April, and here they are again together with many newer findings in a neat summary.
Haste, slow and other speed effects
Opposite effects affecting speed can’t coexist with each other, which leads to some interesting strategic opportunities. Like these:
Ferocious wound removes haste, haste removes ferocious wound.
Rush! and heroic charge are therefore good ways for your Black Dragons to get rid of the paralyzing sting that your enemy with puppet master ordered your Scorpicores to do on your Black Dragons.
If your hero casted heroic charge on a creature that then waits, or on a creature that doesn’t have had its action yet this turn, and the enemy (hero or creature) cast slow heroic charge is replaced with slow.
Counter mass haste with curse of shadow since whirling death hits multiple targets.
Stronghold heroes don’t have haste and slow, but Dreamreavers can cast Earth & Sky.
Grounded creatures remain grounded even if rushed! (or something else)
Goblin Hunters’ traps don’t give permanent speed reduction. It will stop a hasted creature from moving on in its path, but the trap will not remove haste.
Frozen ground, the water spell, works like the trap.
Ice shards, the Yuki-Onna ability, also Chills the target. Chilled creatures get -1 speed.
Several positive effects can coexist and several negative effects can coexist, but when an opposing effect enters the mix only the opposing effect remains active.
Burning determination, despair and other morale effects
Burning determination – Target’s morale is increased and cannot be reduced by abilities. Dispels all negative effects affecting morale from the target.
Despair – Decreases target’s morale. Dispels all positive effects affecting morale from the target.
How it works in practice:
Burning determination removes and gives immunity to Despair (and other negative effects).
Despair removes Heroism (and other positive effects) but can’t be casted on burning determination.
Heroism (and other positive effects) casted on a Despaired stack will coexist with Despair.
Abilities affecting other stats
When it comes to initiative, luck and might & magic damage & resistance, all kinds of positive, negative and opposite effects can coexist. When you right-click on a stat in a creature’s info window in combat you’ll see that effects are divided in bonus and malus effects.
For example, a creature’s initiative is calculated this way: Current initiative = original initiative of the creature + bonus effects – malus effects
Sometimes an effect, like evasive maneuvers, inner fire and heroism, iaren’t listed when right-clicking on a stat, but that doesn’t matter as long as they are listed is among the icons in the creature’s info window.
One may also note that there are both defence bonus/malus and resistance bonus/malus. Ice armor gives +X defence and is a defence bonus, while stone skin is a % bonus to might resistance. Disruption is a defence malus effect (reduces defence by X points). Much terminology with little practical meaning since everything is calculated to % of protection anyway.
IMMUNITY TO MAGIC
The BLACK DRAGON is the most prominent among the creatures with immunities to one or several effects.
"The Black Dragon is immune to all spells effects. Incoming spell damage from enemy units attacking the Black Dragon is also reduced by 30%."
In practice this means the Black Dragon is immune to all abilities that involve magic, no matter if it's an activated or passive ability, or if it's a hero or creature ability. They are immune to all spells but not to war cries. Reputation abilities are also divided in might and magic.
Hero abilities
Dragons are safe from monsoon, watery grave, serenity, tsunami, word of light, holy blades (passive), armageddon, inferno, doom (might hero), curse of the netherworld, father sky’s wrath, idol of storms, shadow implosion, soulmark (dark damage).
They are harmed by divine justice, anathema, mark of chaos, nightmare, mark of the necromancer (but none of the blood war cries deal direct damage), power of the horde, diversion, stalking shade.
Reputation abilities resembling war cries used to boost your creatures can be used on the Black Dragon, for example Feign Death and Dark Transfer.
(A qualified guess is that reputation abilities resembling spells and cost mana, such as the confessors' resurrection, doesn't work. Not systematically tested)
Creature abilities
In addition to this the Black Dragon is immune to all creature abilities that involve magic:
Sanctuary: waves of renewal, ice shards (only animation, no effect), hailstorm aura (water damage), crashing leap (doesn’t do additional water damage)
Haven: searing light, pacification
Inferno: blade of hatred (frenzy), boundless hate (only animation, no fire dmg), enthrall, succubus master’s immolation
Necropolis: breath of vermin (earth damage)
Stronghold: burning rage, sky and earth
Dungeon:mind leash, terrifying presence, harrowing vision, mind probe, poisoned blades (dark damage)
All might creature abilities has the normal effect: challenged, ferocious wound, taunting presence, manic laughter, eye of gluttony, rage against the living, webbing spear, Goblin trap, paralyzing sting.
It is IMPORTANT to remember that the Black Dragon are immune to both positive and negative effects, so no healing is possible. They are also immune to dispel, which may be annoying sometimes but also means that your enemy have difficulties to counter war cries, reputation abilities and pressed attack.
CELESTIALS - Tested by NamelessOrder
Absolute Purity: The creature is immune to negative effects.
- It works as it should - Celestials are immune to all negative effects,
- Your opponent can cast frenzy on your angels,
- Although purge cannot be active on angels it does act as dispel (so in other words you can dispel angels with purge but the player can cast spells on angels unlike on any other typical creature),
- All damage dealing spells work on Celestials this includes Divine Judgement (haven might hero's level 2 tears ability),
- No damage over time works on Celestials.
A few specific spells:
- Inferno cannot be cast or jump to Celestials,
- Lightning can strike Celestials but it won't daze them, one can use hailstorm aura against Celestials but it won't freeze them etc.
- Hateful Retaliation obviously effects Celestials
- You can't protect your Celestials with petrification
UNDEAD
This unit is not alive. Its morale is always neutral and it has 20 % resistance to damage (Water). It is also immune to Poison, Disease, Blind and Mind influence.
Having no emotions, undead are immune to Morale effects.
Because of these traits the undead creatures are immune to:
- Agony, despair, burning determination, terror, puppet master, serenity, diversion, heroism, heroic charge, intimidation, taunt.
- Taunting presence, terrifying presence, pacification, the lamasu abilities, mind leash.
- Enemies can’t drain life.
Undead creatures are not immune to:
Petrification, Time Stasis and Frozen doesn't control the mind.
Dazed, Tsunami and Eye of the Medusa and works, the “stunned” creatures are not confused.
Anathema works, even if it includes a morale penalty.
Warlord’s command (why?) and Rush! (that’s ok) work.
Challenged by kenshi works.
Feign death fools the undead.
Mind probe works
Stalking shade illusions are real according to ghosts and other undead (ok, it’s a top reputation vision after all).
Paralyzing sting gives no retaliation but decreases neither speed nor initiative. A fair compromise between preserving disease immunity and the usefulness of an ability.
Poisoned Blades, Withering breath and Harrowing vision are neither poison nor disease!
PANTHER WARRIORS
War Fury - immune to harmful mind influence and effects decreasing its morale once it has dealt damage
War Fury doesn’t work efter Feral Charge. They must make a normal attack to become furious. (But it’s actually a nice bug since the player needs to make a tactical choice between immunity and damage.)
When furious, they become immune to the same mind effects as the undead, not only the "harmful" things. They're immune to frenzy even if it's positive (see angels) plus burning determination, heroism and heroic charge which all are definitely positive effects.
Control effects like blind (unlike undead), time stasis, frozen and petrification that controls the body, not the mind, work as they should.
Taunting presence of the ravagers also works – when panther warriors without war fury goes into and attack a creature within the ravagers aura. Taunting presence is “triggered” before the war fury. Only if war fury already is active when panther warriors enter the ravager's aura, they're not taunted.
DEMENTED
Twisted Mind - Seems to “work” like War Fury, except that since their minds are twisted from the beginning of battle which means that ravagers have no effect on them.
RAVAGER
Organic Armor - immunity to effects decreasing might and magic defence.
It works fine. I think there used to be bugs that stopped stone skin but that’s obviously in the past now.
PITLORD
Blinded by Rage - immune to negative mind effects and effects reducing movement
Used to be bugged but Pitlords are now immune to frenzy, puppet master, terror and so on. Positive mind and movement effects - including heroic charge - work!
PHOENIX
Death Ward - immune to blood magic
Water Elemental can cast ice bolt on them.
SACRED KIRIN
Water Flows Freely - immune to effects reducing speed and initiative.
Works correctly.
SANCTUARY
Amphibian – Immunity to movement reductions from the water magic school. Sanctuary heroes can travel on the seas if all their army is amphibian
Works correctly.
Is dispel imbalanced and does it make the game boring?
Yes, if it's overused. But cool downs and limited area of effect for dispel make sure that there's always some kind of magic present.
And instead trying to counter the enemy with dispel it's better to cast a spell of your own. Different heroes and armies rely on different strategies. Casting that Chain Lightning if you're blood magic or Mass Inner Fire if you're might is a better idea than freeing a blinded stack.
Dispel is really only useful for saving a key stack or stopping some damage dealer strengthened by magic or war cries, but if your enemy pays attention to the initative bar you shouldn't be allowed to dispel anyway.
Dispel is also a weapon with two edges, if you have built up a nice group of buffs on your stack you don't want to remove all that just to get rid of one debuff.
So unleash your best combos, in the game and in the thread!
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted April 17, 2013 12:45 PM |
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I practically never used Dispel in any Heroes game. Maybe only to counter Blindness on my crucial ranged units. IMO it's much better to reduce your enemy army with offensive spells...
I think that cooldown is one of the best new mechanics introduced in Heroes VI. It's the only way to encourage a player to use mixed spells in battles. Higher spell cost also gives some more balance. For instance in Heroes III it was always a better choice to pulverize your enemies crucial units with high-damage Implosion then juggling with debuffs all the way. At least for me. It was quicker and more devastating then any other magic strategy (of course situation changes a bit if you don't have access to high level spells, but you can always use the Lightning spell). And a high level Mage Hero had enough mana to throw as much Implo's as he wanted... The only higher level buffing spell I used was Master Water Magic level Prayer spell (with it's mass effect).
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 17, 2013 01:16 PM |
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Quote:
For instance in Heroes III it was always a better choice to pulverize your enemies crucial units with high-damage Implosion then juggling with debuffs all the way.
I remember a very specific battle in Dracon's campaign (Armageddon's Blade) against a Legion of Naga Queens. That battle was won primarily through Blind, Slow and Mirror Image (on your Titans). Implosion by itself was just not enough to kill them before they decimated your army. While it was the eventual spell of choice, it only became so after first severly hampering the Naga Queens with debuffs and buffing your own Titans.
While that one is one I clearly remember, there are other battles which work similar. In fact, I usually open with either a Mass Slow (if the enemy is weak in ranged attackers), Mass Haste (if he is strong at range) or Chain Lightning (if he has four or more stacks).
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 17, 2013 01:23 PM |
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My boyfriend locked me down with gated Ravagers and intimidation. Even though I had 70 pearl priestess joiners I never got to fire with them (230 when his cores didn't go above 150) except first turn. If I had dispel...I should have listened when he advised to take it instead of toughness. Here is one situation where dispel is good.
Very nice work Locksley, now you can fill out what does waves of renewal dispel and your work should be uploaded in the AOH wiki under dispel section asap
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted April 17, 2013 03:03 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 15:13, 17 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
I remember a very specific battle in Dracon's campaign (Armageddon's Blade) against a Legion of Naga Queens.
Haha, that one was legendary. I used a randomly genarated battle obstacle in a form of U to my advantage. I hid my Titan stack inside, and blocked the entrance with Mirror Images. He pulverized the Nagas with ranged attack enough to even the chances. Classic
Yeah I don't deny the use of other spells (Mass Slow/Haste/Prayer being most common), but usually, when given the choice between an offensive or buffing/debuffing spell, I would take the offensive one...
Because of the cooldowns Heroes VI encourages you to try different spells. And as I usually choose one or max two magic schools, so I don't get that much offensive spells (usually 2 or 3). In battle I go for a Summon (to block Ranged), Buff/Debuff then Offensive (or the other way round), and repeat (as most cooldowns take 3 turns). Of course some battles have their own twists...
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Wanizame
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 17, 2013 05:16 PM |
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Quote:
My boyfriend locked me down with gated Ravagers and intimidation. Even though I had 70 pearl priestess joiners I never got to fire with them (230 when his cores didn't go above 150) except first turn. If I had dispel...I should have listened when he advised to take it instead of toughness. Here is one situation where dispel is good.
Very nice work Locksley, now you can fill out what does waves of renewal dispel and your work should be uploaded in the AOH wiki under dispel section asap
If I recall right, Waves of Renewal dispels Mind effects, including Intimidation, Taunt, Pacification, etc. It also dispels Petrification as well.
I think one effect you forgot to mention under the Sanctuary section is the Priestesses' Eyes of the Medusa.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 17, 2013 08:25 PM |
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Yes, let's make a full list with waves' cleansing ability too. In that matchup waves wouldn't have helped. He managed to get ravagers from hell 3 times. One non-instant and two instants. My creatures couldn't get out - it was very ugly.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2013 10:39 PM |
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Excellent article Locksley!!!
1. Something to add:
- Soulreaver and Mark of the Heretic cannot be dispelled, my guess is that the same goes to Scorching Strike
- one can dispel petrification (on an enemy creature) with mass dispel but not with simple dispel (very important vs necro magic tears).
2. Cleansing Light
A second creature with dispel (next to pearl priestesses) is glory with their ability: Cleansing Light.
Cleansing Light - Each time the creature teleports, she dispels all adjacent stacks for one random effect. Dispels negative
effects from friendly stacks and positive effects from enemy stacks. cooldown: 3 turns
It's important to note that:
- glories have to teleport. If they not (like you attack without moving them), the dispel won't trigger.
- the dispelling effect triggers when they come from teleporting. So they can dispel 2 times - when they teleport to attack and when they come back from attacking. If you simply move your glories to another place on the map, you cannot dispel a creature that initially stood next to glories.
- bug: when you click on cleansing light you cannot unselect it by clicking the right mouse button or by any other way.
- bug (not confirmed): i think that when you have morale cleansing light carry on to morale turn
3. Dispel is useful
Dispel is very useful, e. g. in Might vs Might right now when stone skin doesn't work and celestial armor is just pitiful it is the only weapon against ice armor as haven (no access to water magic).
End game almost always looks like that (haven might at least): pressed attack, dispel on their pressed attack, buff, repeat.
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Quote:
+ Might over Magic can be dispelled, which is against logic.
It's not against the logic. Might over magic works only versus magic dmg not against buffs/nerfs as far as i know.
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dale
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2013 12:47 AM |
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Quote:
Necropolis
+ Webbing Spear (Skeletal Spearman)
+ Freezing Web (Fateweaver)
+ Breath of Vermin (Putrid Lamasu)
+ Dark Embrace (Lich)
- Out of Time (Vampire lord), can’t be dispelled when you activate it and move vampires.
- Transfer Life (Archlich), can’t be dispelled which is extremely useful in the very common situation when you have targeted an ally for healing and realize that you also want to remove a harmful spell. Odd ability because it doesn’t have an icon on target ally.
Nice thread -- I shall look forward to other responses.
WRT Necropolis, I have not yet been able to get freezing web to work for me. I click on the icon that is supposed to implement it, but nothing happens and I am still in the select action mode. Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong?
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Grey Beards of the world, Unite :-}}
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted April 18, 2013 11:05 AM |
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Edited by Locksley at 12:16, 18 Apr 2013.
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Wow, a whole heap of good responses
I've added a section about Priestesses' Waves of Renewal and - based on NamelessOrder's post - the Cleansing Light of the Glories.
Nagas being defeated by control spells were mentioned in several posts, and it was actually in a "control the naga" situation last year I first got the idea to one day check what's going on with dispel. It was in the duel tournament where my Might Sanctuary was completely pwned by a Confessor, and humiliated in public when there showed up a link to the replay (starting at part 22) in Ubisoft's Twittering.
The duel is basically a showcase of ALL the bugs in H6 and the power of Tears, and since I was new to game I was doomed. Two things of interest from a dispelling point of view:
1. Having good initiative is bad. When only the shark guards remain it's pointless to dispel on their turn, because they are the last to act. If you dispel something the enemy have plenty of time to put a spell on your creatures again.
2. The key to victory is to cast waves of renewal before the priestesses are blinded. With Kirins going first every turn I could have used their turns to dispel other creatures.
Quote & Comment!
Quote:
End game almost always looks like that (haven might at least): pressed attack, dispel on their pressed attack, buff, repeat.
I agree that dispel is useful and necessary to save situations. What I meant in the final part of my post is that it can be overused since it's a simple spell with good effect against all kinds of things, but that a more complicated spell could be useful too. That endgame you describe sounds a bit boring since whatever you do the answer is simple: dispel. But it's probably the most rational way to play, especially with glories jumping around it's bad to go for mass spells and war cries instead of pressed attack.
Quote:
It's not against the logic. Might over magic works only versus magic dmg not against buffs/nerfs as far as i know.
You're right. I just thought it to be ironic that dispel works against another anti magic thing.
Quote:
WRT Necropolis, I have not yet been able to get freezing web to work for me. I click on the icon that is supposed to implement it, but nothing happens and I am still in the select action mode. Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong?
If the Fateweaver stack is too weak compared to its targets nothing happens. Many other activated abilities have reduced effect, I've seen Enthrall duration ranging from 0 (can't click) to 2 turns depending on the Lilim's target strength.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 18, 2013 02:06 PM |
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I don`t want to ruin your thread to tell about my game but here it is what happened:
I didn`t have dispel and this was my main mistake. I had super initiative and all creatures of mine went before his but he had counterstrike III. The turn when I wanted to remove intimidation from priestess I had already weakness on and the best I could hope for was firing at the gated ravagers. I already explained he put an instant ravager after I waited with my princesses so that I kill ravagers with other stacks though his gauge was empty . I was more controlled by taunting presence than intimidation. Ravagers with weakness and evasive maneuvers can`t die . Even dispel won`t have saved my tiny ass for long cause his breeder mother moralled twice and soaked my mana pretty fast. I casted mass ice armor and regeneration and was left with 0 mana.
Locksley, can you test waves and cleansing light for every creature ability like you did with dispel?
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted April 18, 2013 03:19 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 15:40, 18 Apr 2013.
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I created the thread as a place for telling what happened in various situations where magic was involved, so you don't ruin anything! Gating ravagers and somehow keeping them from being hurt is just very effective, interesting to hear that weakness and evasive maneuvers work so well together. And yeah, breeders are also very annoying and it's often a good idea to block them (they move  ) or blind them (inferno dispel ) or charge them (ravagers taunt you ).
Quote:
Locksley, can you test waves and cleansing light for every creature ability like you did with dispel?
The test battle between haven and sanctuary was the most important one for checking normal spells and war cries, and the most suspicious abilities - petrification, pacification and spirit bond.
That will have to do for the moment, but I will test the rest of the creature abilities in haven and sanctuary monday or tuesday next week. The other factions will come after that in my spare time mornings but adding a Dungeon section has higher priority. I hope the expansion doesn't fix too many things since that would mean that some of the work was unnecessary. If you want to test a faction your help is most welcome.
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted April 18, 2013 03:50 PM |
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Word of warning: NEVER use Purity when You puppeted an enemy unit, it treats it as a friendly unit, and dispels Puppet! Similarly, Purity doesn't dispel Puppet from your own unit temporarily under enemy control.
Some warcries have a partial dispel effect, as there can apparently be only one movement modifier active on a unit at a time. Rush can thus be very useful (as is Ferocious Wound for removing that pesky Heroic Charge mwahaha.) indeed.
Could we determine the exact period of time the game considers a turn? It gets a bit wonky, and it'd be nice to know all of its quirks.
(Rule of thumb: By my limited testing, it seems a turn is started when a creature gets its first action in a round, and lasts until either Morale triggers, or the next turn comes. If You cast an instant-effect spell,(Like Petrification IIRC, can't check atm) You can thus prolong it a bit if You cast it after waiting, but charge-spells like Regeneration DON'T take effect until the next action of the creature. Watch out for this! I'm still not sure how Cleave fits in here, I'd appreciate some help.)
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 18, 2013 06:39 PM |
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My boyfriend was a lil' high and took weakness by mistake. He was like look now I have another defence spell for 40 mana and with lesser effect than evasive blahaha...what will i do ..damn.Then he figured out what to do with the situation and in final battle weakness came on top of evasive.If he reads this the old argument about smokin' and creativity will come up again.
The_Polyglot , can u tell me how do u dispel HC with wanizame?
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted April 18, 2013 06:46 PM |
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@Natalka: By default, HC last two turns. You can't escape the first blow, but if You manage to hit the stack with your Wanizame before the HC'd stack's second turn, Ferocious Wound makes sure HC goes away.
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 18, 2013 07:29 PM |
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For me it has always lasted 1 turn.
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted April 18, 2013 07:34 PM |
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Can't double-check it for You atm, but I'm pretty sure it can and will last 2/(3 with morale+Cleave) unit actions. The tooltip may be wrong, but if You check creature effects, it should show 2 turns)
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted April 27, 2013 06:35 PM |
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Duration and turns! Opposite spells! Cleansing Light Update!
Yes that's right, three topics in one post.
Duration and turns!
Quote:
Could we determine the exact period of time the game considers a turn? It gets a bit wonky, and it'd be nice to know all of its quirks.
(Rule of thumb: By my limited testing, it seems a turn is started when a creature gets its first action in a round, and lasts until either Morale triggers, or the next turn comes. If You cast an instant-effect spell,(Like Petrification IIRC, can't check atm) You can thus prolong it a bit if You cast it after waiting, but charge-spells like Regeneration DON'T take effect until the next action of the creature. Watch out for this! I'm still not sure how Cleave fits in here, I'd appreciate some help.)
Good that you mentioned this. I think it's more than just a bit wonky actually because there are so many special cases. But the basic rule is actually simple but not obvious:
Effects disappear when a unit has had its action in the turn the effect should end. That's why mass spells disappear one some units before others.
A spell with the duration of X turns is effective over X+1 turns( army rounds).
Example Inner Fire duration is 2 turns, but you get bonus damage on 3 turns:
Cast IF on Marksman turn 1 and shoot with bonus damage.
Next turn, Marksman shoot with bonus damage.
Next turn, Marksman shoot with bonus damage and IF disappears.
This means (as you say) that instant effect spells (inner fire, storm arrows...) are better than spells that trigger when a unit will act (burning determination, regeneration).
But there are other ways of measuring duration: Sometimes 1 turn means 1 action, Flawless assault works this way and disappear more quickly if you get much morale. The Pressed Attack madness is a different where you can get 2 to 4 hits in two turns depending on morale. I think it's only with Bloodrage and Honor 1 turn means the current turn. Guardian Angel is also weird: it disappears if you get morale, but last until next turn if you cast it on your morale action (and I think that sometimes allow you to protect a second stack.) And what does cleave do with duration?
Quote:
@Natalka: By default, HC last two turns. You can't escape the first blow, but if You manage to hit the stack with your Wanizame before the HC'd stack's second turn, Ferocious Wound makes sure HC goes away.
Heroic charge last 1 move if you don't get morale.
If you get morale the "morale move" will be a second heroic charge.
If you wait to postpone your "morale move", that will still be a second heroic charge.
But if you defend instead of using the "morale move" Heroic charge disappears.
Opposite spells!
Quote:
Word of warning: NEVER use Purity when You puppeted an enemy unit, it treats it as a friendly unit, and dispels Puppet! Similarly, Purity doesn't dispel Puppet from your own unit temporarily under enemy control.
Some warcries have a partial dispel effect, as there can apparently be only one movement modifier active on a unit at a time. Rush can thus be very useful (as is Ferocious Wound for removing that pesky Heroic Charge mwahaha.) indeed.
Haste and Slow are the most know opposite spells but there are some others:
Burning determination dispels and gives immunity to Despair.
Despair removes Heroism.
Heroism shouted at a Despaired stack will coexist with Despair.
Thanks for the words of warning, I guess it could evolve into a very hectic situation for a Shaman.
Cleansing Light Update!
The Cleansing Light of the Blazing Glories were thouroughly tested yesterday and the first post has been updated with the conclusion that it's effective against exactly everything that normal dispel removes. Dungeon and Waves of Renewal will be tested the coming weeks.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 27, 2013 11:57 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 13:15, 28 Apr 2013.
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Seems I am right about HC.
Guardina Angel (GA)
About GA I'd say that if u cast it on the wait turn you can strike with GA and you have GA for next round.
EDIT: this thread is very good. Can you check about counterstrike III duration. I think it is 3 times not first 3 turns. When you complete your list about waves of renewal I will ask Valeriy to make a separate page for this advanced stuff in the heroes AOH wiki.
Mass spells duration
I tested about mass spells and turn duration and I`d say that if you cast mass inner fire on turn of the glory only the glory will get increased dmg and init for 3 rounds - all others get 2 rounds. Anathema, mass stone skin , mass weakness last for the rounds it is written in the description but last 1 more round for the creature on which turn you cast it on. Locksley is right that after the creature has had its turn in the turn the spell should end the effect is gone.
Meditation
If you cast it on the normal turn you can cast 3 times with SP boost but if you cast it on the wait turn you will get 4 casts. So wait before casting and your opponent will be scared that you don`t cast and you wait for him to cast and make something wrong when you just want to cast meditation.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted April 30, 2013 04:30 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 16:35, 30 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Mass spells duration
I tested about mass spells and turn duration and I`d say that if you cast mass inner fire on turn of the glory only the glory will get increased dmg and init for 3 rounds - all others get 2 rounds. Anathema, mass stone skin , mass weakness last for the rounds it is written in the description but last 1 more round for the creature on which turn you cast it on. Locksley is right that after the creature has had its turn in the turn the spell should end the effect is gone.
The test in my previous post was made with single target spells, which meant that the Marksman gets to shoot 3 times with bonus damage when inner fire is said to have 2 turns duration. We've got basically the same result - but I couldn't see what happened to other creatures when casting a mass spell. A mistake, good that you pointed this out.
Without the extra turn spells with effects on Regeneration, Initiative, Morale and things that happens at the start of a creature's turn wouldn't work as promised in the descriptions. But with the extra turn every stack gets equally Regenerated no matter when you cast mass regeneration. With inner fire you get good initative for 2 turns as promised (and bonus damage for 3 turns as a minor side effect ).
From a tactical point of view this "extra turn feature" is quite interesting, as you can give an extra boost to your biggest stack, but with better balance between your own stacks' size the most important thing is to avoid casting when it's the turn of a seriously hurt stack, or that extra turn is at risk to be lost.
Quote:
EDIT: this thread is very good. Can you check about counterstrike III duration. I think it is 3 times not first 3 turns. When you complete your list about waves of renewal I will ask Valeriy to make a separate page for this advanced stuff in the heroes AOH wiki.
Thank you! I agree that this would be a nice thing to add to the wiki, when the time comes I will make a few changes here and there to make it look like an article instead of a post.
RE: Counterstrike III
"I think it is 3 times not first 3 turns."
I couldn't believe my eyes, but it's actually working as it should according to the description:
All friendly creatures in the Hero's army can retaliate once per turn before the enemy's attack during the first 1/2/3 turns of the combat
With 7 stacks in 3 turns you can potentially get 21 first retaliations, and your enemy better learn to focus on one stack at a time. Fairly balanced skill.
RE: Heroic Charge
You're right overall, and Poly is right that Ferocious Wound removes Heroic Charge (when it's still active after waiting on morale turn). And HC removes FW.
RE: Guardian Angel
GA placed on wait turn and morale turn last until right after first action by that creature next round (i.e. it disappears before morale turn in second round). GA placed on normal turn last until next round unless you get morale. So there is some room for having two stacks protected simultaneously.
RE: Meditation
Very useful tip and a strategy, I didn't know it worked that way. Observant!
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