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| Thread: Magic and Anti-Magic in Heroes VI |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted June 11, 2013 12:48 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 12:49, 11 Jun 2013.
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Updated purge section, better late than never.
This month I will test Waves of Renewal and creatures with partial magic immunity.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted June 11, 2013 05:53 PM |
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Purge
In matchup Necro vs Inferno purge removed Emotionless ability and my weavers were affected by taunting presence. The effect lasted for the entire battle. It could've been a bug.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 04, 2013 01:06 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 13:12, 04 Sep 2013.
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Summer laziness is over but that’s alright ‘cause I can now proudly present...
ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT PETRIFICATION 
Petrification is a tricky spell because even if it’s presented as a protective tears spell it can also be used on enemies, and it’s in fact coded as a NEGATIVE effect:
- Purity always removes petrification, no matter if petrification was cast on your creature by your or the enemy’s hero.
- Purge doesn’t remove petrifaction, it doesn’t matter if the enemy wanted to protect its stack or if you wanted to immobilize it.
- Dispel works as it should.
- Glories can only remove petrification from friendly stacks, and it doesn’t matter who cast the spell.
- Dark elementals can’t remove petrification, because they can’t attack.
- Celestials, who are immune to negative effects, can’t be protected.
- Sanctuary can’t make a double petrification with spirit bond.
- Unfettered doesn’t work. I think it should: “Dispels all negative effects affecting movement, initiative, morale and might damage from all friendly creatures.”
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2013 02:18 PM |
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Locksley said:
- Dispel works as it should.
to clarify: you can dispel your unit with single dispel, but to dispel enemy unit you need mass dispel (very stupid mechanics imho)
Locksley said:
- Celestials, who are immune to negative effects, can’t be protected.
typo: ... can't be petrified
sth to add:
- waves of renewal can be cast on petrified unit and it will dispel it
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if it's possible i'd like to change the text about the glories' dispel description from:
Quote:
- bug (not confirmed): i think that when you have morale cleansing light carry on to morale turn.
to:
- cleansing ability carries on to the next turn if activated during waited faze of the combat. In other words: if one waits with glories and then activates cleansing light, the cleansing light will be active during the next turn (so you can dispel 2 times). If you have morale and waited, you can dispel with glories 3 times: the waited move, waited morale move, next turn move.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 05, 2013 03:07 PM |
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Great feedback!
I have updated the first post with an "official" version complete with your observations. The findings about cleansing light is also included.
Waves of renewal testing starts tomorrow.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 09, 2013 04:09 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 16:16, 09 Sep 2013.
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Waves of Renewal
I have now tested the Waves of Renewal on a random sample (+ the most suspected) of the negative effects mentioned in my first post, and can confirm that Waves of Renewal can remove the same negative effects that dispel can remove.
However, under certain circumstances Waves of Renewal doesn’t remove a dispellable effect at all! 
First time I saw this was when the waves failed to remove the Pit Lord’s Blade of Hatred-effect (frenzy) from a stack of Kirins. After further testing I found some patterns; the order of spell casting determines whether the waves “fails” or not.
1.
Pit Lord attacks Kirin before Priestess casts Waves on Kirin  Kirin is frenzied.
2.
Priestess casts Waves on Kirin before (most likely in a previous turn) the Pit Lord attacks Kirin Kirin is cured.
3.
Kirin waits, Pit Lord attacks, Priestess casts Waves Kirin’s wait-move in first turn is normal (neither Frenzy nor Waves triggers) AND in the second turn Kirin makes a frenzied attack before being Renewed.
4.
Kirin waits, Pit Lord waits, Priestess casts Waves, Pit Lord attacks Kirin’s wait-move in first turn is normal (neither Frenzy nor Waves triggers) AND in the second turn Kirin is Renewed (which dispels the Frenzy before it triggers).
The same patterns apply to all effects that trigger when a unit’s turn begins, from both passive and activated abilities. For example: the Enraged Cyclops’s Burning Rage (fire dmg), the Putrid Lamasu’s Breath of Vermin (earth dmg), and the Hero’s immolation from the fire spells.
Please note that effects that trigger when moving (Sky and Earth or Agony etc.) or are simple stats reductions always are removed by the Waves.
Remember, never use an effect on a unit which already has Waves of Renewal on it. Instead, cast it before the Priestess turn and your opponent can’t cure its stack in time.
EXCEPTIONS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE!
All control effects are removed no matter when the Waves are cast. Searing light, blindness, petrification, freezing web, time stasis, … the list is long.
That's good, because the key to victory when playing as Sanctuary against Magic Tears heroes often is to cast waves of renewal on Kirins before the Priestesses are blinded (perhaps have two stacks to be extra safe  ). Since the Kirins are going first every turn Sanctuary can always dispel control effects from other creatures during the Kirins’ turn, or suffer the consequences.
Exceptions to the exceptions 
Waves of Renewal can’t be cast on a creature currently controlled by the enemy via Puppet Master. Furthermore, the Terror spell always causes its target to lose a turn, and the Vestals’ Pacification allows the regeneration part to happen but a pacified creature always loses its turn. That knowledge may come in handy.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2013 06:10 PM |
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Locksley said:
...
However, under certain circumstances Waves of Renewal doesn’t remove a dispellable effect.
Yeah i've noticed that WoR (Waves of Renewal) sometimes doesn't work. Apparently there is a pre-action faze in every creature's turn. And some spells and effects such as WoR belong to this faze. Then the order of casting is important.
Locksley said:
All control effects are removed no matter when the Waves are cast. Searing light, blindness, petrification, freezing web, time stasis, … the list is long.
Note that taunt (the most important control effect in might vs might) works like hatred (you called it "frenzy"). It belongs to the pre-action faze and the order of casting is relevant.
Locksley said:
... but a pacified creature always loses its turn.
Pacification can't be dispelled. I guess that's the reason
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted September 09, 2013 07:24 PM |
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When i read this thread all i can say is poor game mechanics... but i appreciate all the efforts made by members here in order to explain how the game works!
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 10, 2013 02:57 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 15:03, 10 Sep 2013.
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Today I did a few updates to the first post. The biggest addition is the Waves of Renewal section where I also took the chance to add what NamelessOrder wrote about Taunt.
In the Petrification section I added a paragraph about Frenzy, which "is also worth mentioning as it's the other spell that can be cast on both friendly and hostile stacks. It's coded as a positive effect despite the blood reputation, which means that neither you nor the opponent can cast frenzy on a stack you have purged. Since it's an instant effect its not dispellable.”
I also added The_Polyglot's Warning to the Purity section: "Word of warning: NEVER use Purity when You puppeted an enemy unit, it treats it as a friendly unit, and dispels Puppet! Similarly, Purity doesn't dispel Puppet from your own unit temporarily under enemy control."
flonembourg wrote:Quote:
When i read this thread all i can say is poor game mechanics... but i appreciate all the efforts made by members here in order to explain how the game works!
It's like a safari and just like our nature the nature of Ashan is more complex than anyone can imagine. More than that, the mechanics even breaks the laws of nature and logic. It's an amazing thing to explore.
The next project is to test various immunities.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted September 10, 2013 04:33 PM |
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Locksley said:
The next project is to test various immunities.
i'll help you out with angels (Celestial):
Celestials (Angels)
Absolute Purity: The creature is immune to negative effects.
- it works as it should - Celestials are immune to all negative effects,
- Your opponent can cast frenzy on your angels,
- Although purge cannot be active on angels it does act as dispel (so in other words you can dispel angels with purge but the player can cast spells on angels unlike on any other typical creature),
- all damage dealing spells work on Celestials this includes Divine Judgement (haven might hero's level 2 tears ability),
- no damage over time works on Celestials.
A few specific spells:
- inferno cannot be cast or jump to Celestials,
- lightning can strike Celestials but it won't daze them, one can use hailstorm aura against Celestials but it won't freeze them etc.
- Hateful Retaliation obviously effects Celestials
/Edit/ - you can't protect your Angels with petrification (thx Locksley)
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Purge and mass dispel can dispel magic from a unit under guardian angel
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 12, 2013 12:02 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 12:23, 12 Sep 2013.
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Very nice!
Interesting stuff, the only thing I'd like to add is that you can't protect your angels with petrification. Not exactly what I'd call a negative effect but still a part of the immunity because it's negative when the enemy pitrifies your creatures.
Some other creature immunities I've tested today:
Panther Warriors
War Fury (immune to harmful mind influence and effects decreasing its morale once it has dealt damage) doesn’t work efter Feral Charge. They must make a normal attack to become furious. (But it’s actually a nice bug since the player needs to make a tactical choice between immunity and damage.)
When furious, effects including puppet master, serenity, mind leash, despair, terror, intimidation, taunt, blade of hatred and pacify are impossible to cast on them. They're also immune to frenzy even if it's generally coded as positive (see angels) plus burning determination, heroism and heroic charge which all are definitely positive effects.
Control effects like time stasis, blind and petrification that controls the body, not the mind, work as they should.  
Taunting presence of the ravagers also works – when panther warriors without war fury goes into and attack a creature within the ravagers aura. Taunting presence is “triggered” before the war fury. Only if war fury already is active when panther warriors enter the ravager's aura, they're not taunted.
Demented
Twisted Mind – seems to “work” like War Fury, except that since their minds are twisted from the beginning of battle which means that ravagers have no effect on them.
Ravager
Organic Armor (immunity decreasing might and magic defence). It works fine.
I think there used to be bugs that stopped stone skin but that’s obviously in the past now.
Pitlord
Blinded by Rage (mind and movement), used to be bugged but Pitlords are now immune to frenzy, puppet master, terror and so on.
Phoenixes
Death Ward (immune to blood magic), but Water Elemental can cast ice bolt on them.
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Naki
Known Hero
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posted September 14, 2013 01:10 PM |
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Edited by Naki at 13:21, 14 Sep 2013.
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Maurice said:
Quote:
For instance in Heroes III it was always a better choice to pulverize your enemies crucial units with high-damage Implosion then juggling with debuffs all the way.
I remember a very specific battle in Dracon's campaign (Armageddon's Blade) against a Legion of Naga Queens. That battle was won primarily through Blind, Slow and Mirror Image (on your Titans). Implosion by itself was just not enough to kill them before they decimated your army. While it was the eventual spell of choice, it only became so after first severly hampering the Naga Queens with debuffs and buffing your own Titans.
While that one is one I clearly remember, there are other battles which work similar. In fact, I usually open with either a Mass Slow (if the enemy is weak in ranged attackers), Mass Haste (if he is strong at range) or Chain Lightning (if he has four or more stacks).
I remember that mission too! The battlefield terrain there had some rocks blocking the path, with just two spaces to move through - at the top and bottom - so I used a block spell (alternating between the TOP and BOTTOM locations) so that the Naga queens moved up and down the battlefield to try to go through, and just about when I was to run out of mana, my Titans finished them off.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 21, 2013 03:11 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 15:18, 21 Sep 2013.
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Undeath!
This unit is not alive. Its morale is always neutral and it has 20 % resistance to damage (Water). It is also immune to Poison, Disease, Blind and Mind influence.
Having no emotions, undead are immune to Morale effects.
Because of these traits the undead creatures are immune to this:
Spells and war cries:
Agony, despair, burning determination, terror, puppet master, serenity, diversion, heroism, intimidation, taunt.
Enemies can’t drain life.
Creature abilities:
Taunting presence, terrifying presence, pacification, the lamasu abilities, mind leash.
Petrification, Time Stasis and Frozen which controls the body, not the mind, works.
SURPRISE! 
Dazed and Eye of the Medusa work and are not considered to be some form of confusion.
Tsunami works, the “stunned” small creatures are not confused.
Anathema works, even if it includes a morale penalty.
Warlord’s command (why?) and Rush! (that’s ok) work.
Heroic charge doesn't work. (Off topic surprise: neither panther warriors nor demented are emotionless).
Challenged by kenshi works.
Feign death fools the undead.
Mind probe works.
Stalking shade illusions are real according to ghosts and other undead (ok, it’s a top reputation vision after all).
Paralyzing sting gives no retaliation but decreases neither speed nor initiative. A fair compromise between preserving disease immunity and the usefulness of an ability.
Withering breath is neither poison nor disease.
Harrowing vision is neither poison nor disease.
Poisoned blades are not poisoned! The final nail in the coffin for the credibility of the ability descriptions in this game.
Purge Bug Investigated
NamelessOrder wrote this on the top of this page:
“In matchup Necro vs Inferno purge removed Emotionless ability and my weavers were affected by taunting presence. The effect lasted for the entire battle. It could've been a bug.”
I can’t find out how this happened. Just casting Purge didn’t have this effect. When I found out how Panther Warriors can become affected by taunting presence I suspected shape shifting next to Ravagers, but that works fine, no matter if Purge or even those half-bugged wait-turns were involved or not. I also remember that things like CSIII used to be restarted when shape shifting but that was fixed in the patch, perhaps something like that had resurfaced for a moment? It seems to be an onetime only bug.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted September 22, 2013 12:54 PM |
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Locksley said:
Purge Bug Investigated
NamelessOrder wrote this on the top of this page:
“In matchup Necro vs Inferno purge removed Emotionless ability and my weavers were affected by taunting presence. The effect lasted for the entire battle. It could've been a bug.”
I can’t find out how this happened. Just casting Purge didn’t have this effect. When I found out how Panther Warriors can become affected by taunting presence I suspected shape shifting next to Ravagers, but that works fine, no matter if Purge or even those half-bugged wait-turns were involved or not. I also remember that things like CSIII used to be restarted when shape shifting but that was fixed in the patch, perhaps something like that had resurfaced for a moment? It seems to be an onetime only bug.
You have to have purge when you transform from spider to human form. Proof:
after 2cd turn Waver's were affected by lamasu's aura :
Another common bugs:
- purge also affects movement after a morale turn under purge, basically your unit has reduced movement to half. I'll give you an example: i had morale with praetorians, waited, cast purge then move them around 2 times (waited turn plus waited morale) and the next turn their maximum movement was 3 - just like morale movement limit. The effect stays. (I don't have time to investigate it properly but this is a bug that happened to me a lot). Look beneath: notice only 3 movement and no morale or purge effect
- purge prohibits from using some positive abilities: e.g: one cannot use cleansing light when under purge (this might not be a bug)
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 23, 2013 01:22 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 13:23, 23 Sep 2013.
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Quote:
You have to have purge when you transform from spider to human form
Whoops, why didn't I test this when I tested everything else? At least it can be concluded that no matter what there's no bug when transforming TO spider form.
The other bugs, especially lamasu infecting their allied undead, are just too good. I'll add all things to the first posts when completing the immunity section tomorrow.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 23, 2013 01:37 PM |
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Regarding dungeon poison affecting the undead, it is supposed to be soulvenom rather than regular poison. Which is probably more of an excuse than anything but aanyway..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 24, 2013 03:33 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 15:39, 24 Sep 2013.
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Updates!
The Purge Section was updated with NamelessOrder's extraordinarily weird findings:
- Taunted weavers
- Infected weavers
- Reduced movement
- Prevented activated abilities
I added this explanation to the final thing:Quote:
The final thing is explained by the fact that everything that gets an ICON when activated is stopped by purge. Certain activated abilities doesn't allow you to choose target: Cleansing Light, Out of Time, Spirit Bond (source) are some examples.
Purge also prevents creature abilities that are automatically triggered: For example a Purged Demented attach a manic laughter Icon on the enemy but not on himself, even if the ability is said to transfer power from the target to the demented.
Activated attack abilities work even when purged: Searing Light, Strike without return, Piercing Bolt, Dance of Decaye, Wail of the Netherworld and many others.
The Magic Immunity Section now includes these creatures:
Black Dragon
Celestial
Undead
Panther Warrior
Demented
Ravager
Pitlord
Phoenix
Any creatures you think are missing?
I also added some good looking lines between the sections to make it more reader friendly.
Elvin said:
Regarding dungeon poison affecting the undead, it is supposed to be soulvenom rather than regular poison. Which is probably more of an excuse than anything but aanyway..
Yeah, it's unclear how much soul the average skeleton or ghoul has, didn't you listen when Aunt Sveltana told Anastasya to think of them as extensions to herself? 
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted September 24, 2013 06:07 PM |
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Locksley said:
Any creatures you think are missing?
Sacred Kirins (immune to negative effects regarding ini/speed) - as far as i remember it works as it should, meaning that abilities do what they should except reducing speed or initiative.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 08, 2013 01:12 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 13:19, 08 Nov 2013.
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It's time to add some more test results! Any questions, corrections, improvements and additions you may brood on are most welcome.
Guardian Angel!
Target friendly stack becomes impervious to all harm for 1 turn
(GA 4 also resurrects a good portion of the fallen creatures in the stack)
- GA doesn't dispel, but the enemy (heroes and creatures) can't cast any negative effect on a unit with GA.
- Damage-over-time effects don't deal damage but are still active.
- Debuffs such as weakness are still active.
- GA can't be cast on unit that is purged.
- GA doesn’t stop purge, dispel etc to remove other active spells such as burning determination.
- Sentinels protetected by GA won’t attract/reduce neighbour’s damage.
- Fate Weavers' Dance of Decay makes time go faster so that GA disappears.
Unfettered!
Dispels all negative effects affecting Movement, Initiative, Morale and Might Damage from all friendly creatures
Unfettered works as it should. Some notable results:
- Terror is removed; a morale debuff is one of the ingredients in the mix.
- Other control spells such as blind, petrification, enthrall, searing light and so on are not removed; the movement stat is not affected.
- Frozen is bugged as always; it reduces the movement stat to zero but it can't unfettered away.
Might over magic!
Decreases all damage (Magic) dealt to friendly creatures for 2 turns depending on the Hero’s Might
This means that received magic damage is reduced to 0 – no creature magic damage, no hero magic attack, no direct damage spells   – IF your enemy is a magic hero!
Enemy might heroes still have some use for their spells and magic creatures, but when facing your m.o.m. they become wimps nevertheless.
Some examples from the duel mode to use as guidelines:
- Inferno Magic Blood – Agony, Firebolt, Immolation and shooters dealt 0 fire dmg.
- Inferno Might Blood – Agony: 58 dmg (instead of 527), Fire bolt: 169 dmg (not 974), Immolation 7 dmg, Shooters dealt around 40-70 fire dmg.
- Blackies’ Withering Breath (100% Dark dmg + dmg-over-time-passive) is possible to trigger, and deals 10-15 % of standard dmg with might hero, 0 dmg with magic hero.
- Crashing Leap and Hailstorm aura deal only might damage but not the extra water magic damage when commanded by magic hero, and deal 25-40 % extra dmg when led by might hero.
- Pain mirror and similar effects reflect might damage only.
- Secondary effects from an attack (frozen, chilled, soaked etc) are added as usual.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted November 21, 2013 10:35 AM |
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Locksley said:
- Sentinels protetected by GA won’t attract/reduce neighbour’s damage.
That's not correct at least to my knowledge and testing.
If you want to test it get 2 haven might blood (so 1st tier tears reputation ability won't affect the results) and play with Giffins, Praetorians and Angels only. One Praetorian is under GA and the 2cd is not. The dmg to Griffins by Angels is the same.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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