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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: France legalizes gay marriage
Thread: France legalizes gay marriage This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 08, 2013 12:44 PM

An illness is theoretically CURABLE (that's true every temporary condition that doesn't destroy vital organs or parts for good). Cancer is an illness that may be deadly, but that may be cured, depending on a couple of factors.
A condition or deficiency a person is born with, but hasn't any consequences for health and/or doesn't induce illness is a deficiency, not an illness, because it's irrelevant.
Think about the so called "Contergan children" which were born with serious "deficiencies". Having a stump instead of a hand wouldn't lead to any "help" in any way. In other words: someone born a cripple isn't ill, but a cripple, and if that means, a person can't walk, they get a wheelchair as "treatment".

Now. With "infertility" the question is this: is getting a natural child something you are considered to have a right to have or is it a personal problem - like the state of your teeth (that may have MASSIVE influence on your overall health)?
If I live in a hetero marriage, but the wife isn't getting pregnant, while examination shows that both are fertile and both assure they try everything possible - will everyone shrug or does the couple have a right to "be helped in any conceivable way" from the taxpayers's money?

You also mentioned "mental problems" - but since when is the threatening of mental problems reason to get a treatment from the taxpayer's money? You must bring AMPLE proof that you have massive mental problems because of the form and size of your nose, for example, to get that correctional surgery for free - if at all. So isn't your idea of what is ok and what is not somewhat arbitrary?

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Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
posted July 08, 2013 06:25 PM

Just about what Salamandre said earlier...

Quote:
Dr. Ronald Bayer, a pro-homosexual psychiatrist

Don't you mean "anti-homosexual psychiatrist"? His claims aren't very pro-homosexual and I can't find any of his "pro-homosexual" works anywhere...

About the quote itself, it isn't really a good source - AFAIK Bayer wasn't the member of APA and thus his words about what "really happened" can't be trusted. I can't find anything that proves Frank Kameny actually said what Bayer quotes. The sentence: The effort to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder from the DSM was the result of power politics, threats, and intimidation, not scientific discoveries isn't true at all - dr. Bayer should know that there were many scientific discoveries of homosexuals being as "normal" as heterosexuals, including works of Evelyn Hooker and John Gonsiorek (1957) and later GE Tuttle, RC. Pillard, Michael Bailey and many others.

But that's not even the case - while politics could have an impact on APA in removing homosexuality from DSM-II, I don't see any point in saying that it was because of gays voting for anyone (that's not as huge group to be important in election) or that because of such impact we should still consider homosexuality as a mental disorder. There were made many researches on such topic and all of them (if there were no major methodological mistakes, that is) turned out to prove that homosexuality isn't any kind of disorder whatsoever. So your claims about "zero scientific facts" are just false and therefore it's nothing more than an opinion.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
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Free Thinker
posted July 08, 2013 09:29 PM
Edited by Elodin at 21:30, 08 Jul 2013.

A heterosexual woman of child-bearing age not being able to have children with her spouse is a medical problem.

A lesbian not being able to be impregnated by her lesbian partner is not a medical problem. A gay man not being able to be impregnated by his gay partner is not a medical problem. The reproduction organs were not designed for such a thing.

There were no sudden medical/psychological breakthroughs that lead the AMA to vote homosexuality off the mental disorder list. It was pure politics.

Clicky

Quote:

In 1973, The American Psychiatric Association (APA) removed homosexuality as a mental disorder from the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-II).

This decision was a significant victory for homosexual activists and they have continued to claim that the APA based their decision on new scientific discoveries that proved that homosexual behavior is normal and should be affirmed in our culture.

This is false and part of numerous homosexual urban legends that have infiltrated every aspect of our culture. The removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder has given homosexual activists credibility in the culture, and they have demanded that their sexual behavior be affirmed in society.

What Really Happened?

Numerous psychiatrists over the past decades have described what forces were really at work both inside and outside of the American Psychiatric Association---and what led to the removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

Dr. Ronald Bayer, a pro-homosexual psychiatrist has described what actually occured in his book, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnoses. (1981)

In Chapter 4, "Diagnostic Politics: Homosexuality and the American Psychiatric Association," Dr. Bayer says that the first attack by homosexual activists against the APA began in 1970 when this organization held its convention in San Francisco. Homosexual activists decided to disrupt the conference by interrupting speakers and shouting down and ridiculing psychiatrists who viewed homosexuality as a mental disorder. In 1971, homosexual activist Frank Kameny worked with the Gay Liberation Front collective to demonstrate against the APA's convention. At the 1971 conference, Kamney grabbed the microphone and yelled, "Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a decleration of war against you."

Homosexuals forged APA credentials and gained access to exhibit areas in the conference. They threatened anyone who claimed that homosexuals needed to be cured.

Kamney had found an ally inside of the APA named Kent Robinson who helped the homosexual activist present his demand that homosexualiy be removed from the DSM. At the 1972 convntion, homosexual activists were permitted to set up a display booth, entitled "Gay, Proud, and Healthy."

Kameny was then permitted to be part of a panel of psychiatrists who were to discuss homosexuality. The effort to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder from the DSM was the result of power politics, threats, and intimidation, not scientific discoveries.

Prior to the APA's 1973 convention, several psychiatrists attempted to organize opposition to the efforts of homosexuals to remove homosexual behavior from the DSM. Organizing this effort were Drs. Irving Bieber and Charles Socarides who formed the Ad Hoc Committee Against the Deletion of Homosexuality from the Dsm-II.

The DSM-II listed homosexuality as an abnormal behavior under section "302. Sexual Deviations." It was the first deviation listed.

After much political pressure, a committee of the APA met behind closed doors in 1973 and voted to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder from the DSM-II. Opponents were given 15 minutes to protest this change, according to Dr. Jeffery Satinover, in Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Satinover writes that after this vote was taken, the decision was to be voted on by the entire APA membership. The National Gay Task Force purchased the APA's mailing list and sent out a letter to the APA members urging them to vote to remove homosexuality as a disorder. No APA member was informed that the mailing had been funded by this homosexual activist group.

According to Satinover, "How much the 1973 APA decision was motivated by politics is only becoming clear even now. While attending a conference in England in 1994, I met a man who told me an account that he had told no one else. He had been in the gay life for for years but had left the lifestyle. He recounted how that after the 1973 APA decisiion, he and his lover, along with a certain very highly placed officer of the APA Board of Trustees and his lover, all sat around the officer's apartment celebrating their victory. For among the gay activists placed high in the APA who maneuvered to ensure a victory was this man--suborning from the top what was presented to both the membership and the public as a disinterested search for truth."

Dr. Socarides Speaks Out

Dr. Charles Socarides has set the record straight on how homosexuals inside and outside of the APA forced this organization to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder. This was done without any valid scientific evidence to prove that homosexuiality is not a disordered behavior.

Dr. Socarides, writing in Sexual Politics and Scientific Logic : The Issue of Homosexuality writes: "To declare a condition a 'non-condition,' a group of practitioners had removed it from our list of serious psychosexual disorders. The action was all the more remarkable when one considers that it involved an out-of-hand and peremptory disregard and dismissal not only of hundreds of psychiatric and psychoanalytic research papers and reports, but also a number of other serious studies by groups of psychiatrists, psychologists, and educators over the past seventy years..."

Socarides continued: "For the next 18 years, the APA decision served as a Trojan horse, opening the gates to widespread psychological and social change in sexual customs and mores. The decision was to be used on numerous occasions for numerous purposes with the goal of normalizing homosexuality and elevating it to an esteemed status."

"To some American psychiatrists, this action remains a chilling reminder that if scientific principles are not fought for, they can be lost--a disillusioning warning that unless we make no exceptions to science, we are subject to the snares of political factionalism and the propogation of untruths to an unsuspecting and uninformed public, to the rest of the medical profession, and to the behavioral sciences." Dr. Socarides' report is available from the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality: www.narth.com.

The Importance of The DSM.

The DSM(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) is the most widely used disgnostic reference book utilized by mental health professionals in the United States.

It's a manual by which all diagnostic codes are derived for diagnosis and treatment - every single physician (an estimated 850,000*) in the United States refers to this book in order to code for a diagnoses. In plain English, what does this mean? It means that for over 30 years physicians have been prevented from properly diagnosing homosexuality as an aberrant behavior and thus, cannot, recomend a treatment for these individuals.

Prior to that time, homosexuality had been treated as a mental disorder under section "302. Sexual Deviations" in the DSM-II. Section 302 said, in part: "This category is for individuals whose sexual interests are directed primarily towards objects other than people of the opposite sex, toward sexual acts...performed under bizarre circumstances...Even though many find their practices distasteful, they remain unable to substitue normal sexual behavior for them." Homosexuality was listed as the first sexual deviation under 302. Once that diagnostic code for homosexuality was removed, physicians, including psychiatrists, have been prevented from diagnosing homosexuality as a mental disorder for more than three decades.

*American Medical Association statistic, 2002.


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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted July 08, 2013 09:35 PM

If homosexuality isn't a disorder, it being on the disorder list was politics to begin with.
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Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
posted July 08, 2013 09:40 PM
Edited by Hobbit at 21:40, 08 Jul 2013.

Elodin, read post before responding to them. Your link and quotation doesn't add anything new to what Salamandre said and what I pointed out. In fact, Salamandre already used Bayer's book which you referred to, and I already told there why it isn't a good source to begin with.

Next time, instead of just throwing a link to some biased site and referring to it, read our posts, do some research about the subject and then have an opinion on that. After all, you want to be a free thinker, don't you?

Quote:
If homosexuality isn't a disorder, it being on the disorder list was politics to begin with.


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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
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Duke of the Glade
posted July 08, 2013 09:45 PM

Elodin, check the sources you are using before posting them. "Free Republic" is notorious for using falsified or unscientific information, violence, threats and other criminal activity to get its point across. I don't think they would care about using falsified testimony, even if it gets them sued... Again. If I were you, I would honestly look for a different source.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 08, 2013 10:38 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 22:59, 08 Jul 2013.

The link is quoting the book, and the book is available all over the net, while the author was not sued for false information and book not retired, so it is up to you to show it is pure propaganda. I think the subject is enough important to have at least a strong official deny, yet there is none I could find.

At this point, the question is not if homosexuality is disorder or not, but if APA was in contact with gay activists prior to its decision, therefore influenced. And all the links relate same facts-strong political push-over-, plus the fact that APA was often compromised in a lot of suspicious scientific statements, mainly due to his president having stock options in pharmaceutical groups. Check wikipedia, which is supposed to be neutral.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 08, 2013 11:26 PM
Edited by artu at 23:34, 08 Jul 2013.

Quote:
he way i was interpreting the communication between you, minion, artu, and sal, was that you guys were talking about morally wrong, and salamandre was saying that morally wrong isn't black and white.


No, Sal wasn't (isn't) talking about what's morally wrong or not but what's biolgically (and psychologically) normal or not. My objection was based on the fact that the institution of marriage in secular law is about civilization not nature (or theistic beliefs), so that is irrelevant.

Quote:
Do I feel at ease for example to see homosexual contacts openly displayed in movies/theaters, as it will surely be requested? No, sorry, my instinct find repulsive such views, there is nothing I can do.


I dont see how this is binding. That is habit. I too feel disturbed when I see guys kissing on TV, in older days I used to turn my head away, but now I got used to it a little and future generations probably won't have such a problem at all. My grandmother finds any post-1960's horror movie repulsive, to her, an arm being ripped off shouldn't be filmed, what shall we do, ban these movies? Who is forcing you to watch? And I'm having a hard time understanding how this turned into some big conspirecy theory about how all the psychiatric world is fooling us since 1973. (That is 40 years, mind you, and as Hobbit pointed out it wasn't considered a taboo before 1973 in every age and culture). Weren't you guys saying you were okay with civil unions, equal rights etc etc. How and when did we fall back on mental disorder? Shouldn't you be also against the civil unions and support treatment for this mental disorder then?  

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Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
posted July 08, 2013 11:28 PM

Quote:
I think the subject is enough important to have at least a strong official deny, yet there is none I could find.

It seems like this book is considered as a proof of homosexuality being a disorder only by anti-gay propaganda. I can't say I've read this book, but this article clarifies lots of things pretty well. It's a little bit too long to quote here, but I think you should check it out.

Quote:
At this point, the question is not if homosexuality is disorder or not, but if APA was in contact with gay activists prior to its decision, therefore influenced.

How can you NOT be in contact with someone you want to prove is disordered? And, furthermore, how can APA's decision be more important than scientific research that proved homosexuality is NOT a disorder?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 08, 2013 11:39 PM

Thanks for the link, was interesting read.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 21, 2013 05:04 PM

Man, I spend a lot of time today reading this thread, still wondering why there weren't this kind of turmoil when Sweden legalized gay marriage?

In any case, I wonder why we actually need to discuss how normal / sickening, etc. it is to be gay, when the right to gay marriage shouldn't have any influence on this, as much as you've the right to pee in your pants, but it's not considered normal.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted September 21, 2013 05:11 PM

Do you need to bump the whole OSM, forf?

I can't really blame these  people for wanting to marry each other but homosexuality is still a sin. I don't like homosexuals for the same reason I don't like thieves and liars.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 21, 2013 05:53 PM

oO and what is that reason?

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