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| Thread: Idealism or Materialism? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · NEXT» |
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 28, 2013 07:17 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 28 Apr 2013. |
Edited by artu at 19:18, 28 Apr 2013.
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Poll Question:
Idealism or Materialism?
(Raphael's School of Athens, in the center Plato and Aristotle: the elderly Plato pointing up to the heavens, the world of ideas and Aristotle, his most famous student, pointing down to the material world.)
The two main roads in philosophy are idealism and materailism. You can be a liberal, theist, agnostic, trotskyist, nihilist… No matter what you are, you still belong to one of these two aces. If I were to simplify the difference between idealism and materialism, I would say this: One of the many definitions of knowledge is that it is "the relationship between the subject and object." Materialists give the priority to the object while idealists to the subject. So when talking about the ocean for example, the qualifications of the ocean is mainly determined by the ocean itself according to the materialist and it is determined by the observer's qualities according to the idealist. Theism is a very specific form of idealism in which all matter is in God's mind as an idea first. I will also add the Wikipedia definitions here partly, since they are written quite well:
In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial. Epistemologically, idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing any mind-independent thing. In a sociological sense, idealism emphasizes how human ideas—especially beliefs and values—shape society.[1] As an ontological doctrine, idealism goes further, asserting that all entities are composed of mind or spirit.[2] Idealism thus rejects physicalist and dualist theories that fail to ascribe priority to the mind.
In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, matter is the only substance, and reality is identical with the actually occurring states of energy and matter.
During the 19th century, Karl Marx extended the concept of materialism to elaborate a materialist conception of history centered on the roughly empirical world of human activity (practice, including labor) and the institutions created, reproduced, or destroyed by that activity
To many philosophers, 'materialism' is synonymous with 'physicalism'. However, materialists have historically held that everything is made of matter, but physics has shown that gravity, for example, is not made of matter in the traditional sense of "'an inert, senseless substance, in which extension, figure, and motion do actually subsist'… So it is tempting to use 'physicalism' to distance oneself from what seems a historically important but no longer scientifically relevant thesis of materialism, and related to this, to emphasize a connection to physics and the physical sciences.
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Tsar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted April 28, 2013 07:20 PM |
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Both.
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xerox
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posted April 28, 2013 07:26 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 19:26, 28 Apr 2013.
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I'm studying philosophy in school and I ended up becoming a skeptic. It's pointless to argue if you're an idealist or materialist when neither can be proven. The only things we can be sure exist are maths and time/change.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 28, 2013 07:33 PM |
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This only proves that you haven't understood anything.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 28, 2013 07:39 PM |
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Quote:
I'm studying philosophy in school and I ended up becoming a skeptic. It's pointless to argue if you're an idealist or materialist when neither can be proven. The only things we can be sure exist are maths and time/change.
Skepticism itself is not a third road, there are idealist and materialist skeptics. If you are skeptic to the point of "nothing can be really known" it is then considered mysticism and categorized under idealism because you are in a position that says matter can't be (or may not be) really observed.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 28, 2013 07:46 PM |
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Materialsim.
The mind and the self is an illusion maintained by our consciousness.
Imo, there is a simple way to shatter idealism. A question: Where were you before you were born? . Where was your mind? When did you start to remember things?
If mind and knowledge were truly seperate from matter, these questions would not exist. What about coma patients? Where are their minds?
AFAIK, idealists believe that if nobody is there to listen to a tree fall, no sound was made when the tree fell and vice versa for Materialists.
Knowing and not knowing mind independent things.
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Elodin
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posted April 28, 2013 07:48 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:49, 28 Apr 2013.
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I'm certainly not a materialist as in my opinion is it quite silly to think that all that exists is the material, which magically created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing or is eternal.
However, your description of idealism does not really fit either. Reality is certainly not fundamentally immaterial. The planet Earth is a material place.
There exist beings who are purely spirit and man who are spirit with a soul who live in a body. The material world actually exists, it does not just exist in the mind of God.
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Revelation
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xerox
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posted April 28, 2013 07:48 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 19:53, 28 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
and categorized under idealism because you are in a position that says matter can't be (or may not be) really observed.
I'm not saying matter can't be observed. I'm saying we can't be sure.
Which is why I don't think empiricsm is pointless - we might see the truth!
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 28, 2013 07:53 PM |
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As usual, your ignorance is pouring like Niagara. Materialism does not deny the existence of God. Nor idealism proves it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 28, 2013 07:57 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:11, 28 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Reality is certainly not fundamentally immaterial.
Not all idealists say that, actually most idealist don't say that and I never claimed they did.
Quote:
The material world actually exists, it does not just exist in the mind of God
Again, what I said was according to theists matter (or energy I might add) was an idea of God FIRST. They don't have to deny its contemporary presence. For example in your specific belief of Christianity God said "let there be light" and then, there was light.
Quote:
Materialism does not deny the existence of God.
It assumes no God. Also, that's quite a gray area, since God is by definition a metaphysical entity and I use the word in the traditional sense. Materialism does not theoretically deny that a deity will never be discovered, but if it is discovered, then we no longer live in a matter based world, so ontologically materialism then ends.
Quote:
I'm not saying matter can't be observed. I'm saying we can't be sure
That's why I included the "(or may not be)" in my first reply, same thing. Scientific skepticism is a completely different method, yours is still mysticism.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 28, 2013 08:20 PM |
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Both materialism and idealism had being developing to the present days,so we can add something to them even now with our discussion.
Also,we are not bound by what the majority of idealists or materialists say,because as individuals we have own worldview,which includes our own opinions on the subject of discussion.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 28, 2013 08:50 PM |
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I agree master Hagen, I am not bound by neither idealism nor materialism.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 28, 2013 10:15 PM |
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Quote:
It assumes no God. Also, that's quite a gray area, since God is by definition a metaphysical entity and I use the word in the traditional sense. Materialism does not theoretically deny that a deity will never be discovered, but if it is discovered, then we no longer live in a matter based world, so ontologically materialism then ends.
More like it denies the inexplicable reason which have led to the creation of everything and the mystic approach to the creation. It does not really deny the possibility of God's existence, if he can be fully described as a result of observation. On the other hand though, the materialism indeed does not need the notion of God to describe the world so it's as if he doesn't exist.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 28, 2013 10:20 PM |
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Quote:
I agree master Hagen, I am not bound by neither idealism nor materialism.
That's wonderful Drakon, since 2500 years nobody ever thought of that. We all salute you in your revolutionary approach.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 28, 2013 10:31 PM |
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Hm Newton!
Does not change, because I do not write eg a ghost.
Depend what..
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JollyJoker
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posted April 28, 2013 10:35 PM |
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I'm an idealist, because in my opinion progress of the human race is based on abstraction or "ideas"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 28, 2013 11:10 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:10, 28 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
I'm an idealist, because in my opinion progress of the human race is based on abstraction or "ideas"
Don't you think that's rather about the every day meaning of the word and not philosophical terminology? With that motto a Marxist can be an idealist too, since he wants progress and he has some abstract ideas about the nature and structure of society.
I think it would be practical to add the non-terminological meaning of the word here:
Idealist: a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc. Synonyms: optimist, perfectionist, reformer, visionary, utopianist. Antonyms: pragmatist, skeptic, cynic.
This is not necessarily specific to idealist as in:
a person who accepts the doctrines of philosophical idealism, as by representing things in an ideal form, or as they might or should be rather than as they are.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2013 11:17 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm an idealist, because in my opinion progress of the human race is based on abstraction or "ideas"
Don't you think that's rather about the every day meaning of the word and not philosophical terminology?
No.
Read the first paragraph of your opening post again.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 29, 2013 12:00 AM |
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I've been looking for an excuse to give artu a bonus shiny as he's rapidly become a productive member of the community, and this seems as good as any. Nice work, artu. One more and you'll finally be free of that pesky post limit!
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 29, 2013 12:10 AM |
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Then forget for a second your wog forum ignoring attitude and give him a third for THIS POST.
It was once upon the time, when he still was a valuable member of the community, and when materialism meant something to him, not like today. 
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Era II mods and utilities
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