Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Idealism or Materialism?
Thread: Idealism or Materialism? This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 29, 2013 11:14 PM

You can't be an expert on everything Master Learn, who to trust on which subject is about experience, both idealists and materialists need that.

But yes, we all have our subjective filters about that and the subjectivity puts it under the set of idealism. You got me there.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 30, 2013 02:54 AM

@artu

Quote:
Observing sub-atomic particles change what you observe because you have no instrument nano enough to observe without interfering. It's like trying to take the temperature of a swimming pool when the only thermometer you have is as big as that swimming pool. The heat of the thermometer affects the heat of the water. The part where the sub-atomic stuff acts both as particles and waves is out of my perimeter though, I guess you really need to learn advanced math for that.

This is the observer effect, and it is not restricted to the quantum world (although it is certainly manifested in it).  Measurements in every day life are affected by the measurement method.  

Like many people who aren't physicists or chemists, you are confusing the observer effect with Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, the latter of which IS purely a manifestation of the quantum world and falls (quite beautifully, I have to say) directly out of the math.  In essence there are true limitations to what actually CAN be measured, even with a perfect measurement device.  This has nothing to do with the measurement device itself.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 30, 2013 12:42 PM
Edited by artu at 12:43, 30 Apr 2013.

Yes, that last post was a little rushed and careless since I was about to go to bed and had a few beers. Not that I'm an expert anyway. (Don't get me wrong, WHILE a physicist is explaining it to me in lay man's terms, I get most of it, but then two hours pass and the details become all blurry.)

I also skipped JJ's "There is no objective reality in an absolute sense"

Dude, what is this passion for the absolute of yours, it always keeps popping up.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 30, 2013 01:02 PM

For the philosopher the absolute is the same thing than the infinite for the mathematician - if you don't care for that you shouldn't make polls dealing with exclusive decisions between philosophical world views.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 30, 2013 01:09 PM

Quote:
For the philosopher the absolute is the same thing than the infinite for the mathematician - if you don't care for that you shouldn't make polls dealing with exclusive decisions between philosophical world views.


No, the absolute is not proclaimed since 19th century. People don't do that anymore.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 30, 2013 01:41 PM

But the antagonism is from before that and basically ends with that.

One reason is exactly that Materialism proclaims an objective reality that we get always more and insights into. An objective reality (outside of any observer) is something absolute - not to mention the fact that it intrinsically assumes an absolute observer, because without that the statement makes no sense.

Theory of relativity killed that, and quantum physics buried it.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 30, 2013 01:54 PM
Edited by artu at 13:56, 30 Apr 2013.

Both theory of relativity and quantum physics fall under positive sciences which makes them materialistic by definition.

Saying universe is material and can be observed is not necessarily saying your observation is the absolute reality, it's only saying it's reality. Our knowledge of reality advances but it's never going to reach to an absolute state, which in fact was the basis of my objection to you: You criticize materialistic knowledge for not being absolute, as if absolute knowledge is something possible.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 30, 2013 02:45 PM

Quote:
Both theory of relativity and quantum physics fall under positive sciences which makes them materialistic by definition.

Saying universe is material and can be observed is not necessarily saying your observation is the absolute reality, it's only saying it's reality. Our knowledge of reality advances but it's never going to reach to an absolute state, which in fact was the basis of my objection to you: You criticize materialistic knowledge for not being absolute, as if absolute knowledge is something possible.


Sorry, but in this case you not only didn't understand the theory of relativity or the relevant postulations of quantum physics, you also misread or misunderstood what I'm saying or what follows from the materialistic point of view.

What you describe, by the way, is EMPIRISM, not MATERIALISM, which is a completely different ballgame, because empirism is more or less a pragmatical thing that doesn't force you to take a position.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 30, 2013 02:50 PM
Edited by artu at 14:56, 30 Apr 2013.

First of all, empiricism is a sub-category under materialism so even if I was talking about it, that wouldn't make me wrong. And no the observation I talk about is not necessarily sensory, we OBSERVE other galaxies for example but not with our five senses.

And if you think Relativity or Quantum is not materialistic, it's you who's totally off. Relating them to idealism is the perfect example of what is known as pseudo-science.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 30, 2013 02:59 PM

If you say so.

Before I drop out of this nonsense, I'd like to apologize because I made it sound like I would fully understand the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics.

I don't.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 30, 2013 03:07 PM

You don't have to fully understand them to know they are not idealism. I'm not a biologist but I know it's not architecture. It's typical of you to pretend to choose not to say anything else when in fact you don't have anything else to say.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 30, 2013 03:09 PM

Nobody understands the philosophical ramifications of quantum science, artu, no matter how well they understand the science itself.  There are many interpretations, spanning a wide spectrum of the compelling and the absurd.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 30, 2013 03:23 PM

@Corribus,

I know about the philosophical ramifications. The important thing is put aside scientist themselves, almost everybody who is not a quack agree that the end of 19th century positivism was not a shift of sciences from materialism to a gray are between materialism and idealism.

I suggest this book about the subject:
Fashionable Nonsense

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted May 01, 2013 09:37 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 09:38, 01 May 2013.

Actually I can't see how quantum mechanics can be an argument against materialism. Without pretending to really understand more than a small part of the whole thing (about the quantum mechanics that is), the thing that I do undestand does not seem to contradict the materialism and particularly the dialectical materialism one bit. The core postulate is that everything is in motion and through that motion it gains all of its qualities (and quantities), including - and most importantly - the notion of self. The notion itself is not static and can not be, just like the whole univserse is not static and can not be. Even if there isn't a finite number of conditions, interactions, relations and so on, the principle remains unchanged.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 01, 2013 10:39 AM

Quote:
Then came our Quantum theory, which totally transformed our image of matter. The old assumption that the microscopic world of atoms was simply a scaled-down version of the everyday world had to be abandoned. Newton's deterministic machine was replaced by a shadowy and paradoxical conjunction of waves and particles, governed by the laws of chance, rather than the rigid rules of causality. An extension of the quantum theory goes beyond even this; it paints a picture in which solid matter dissolves away, to be replaced by weird excitations and vibrations of invisible field energy. Quantum physics undermines materialism because it reveals that matter has far less 'substance' than we might believe. But another development goes even further by demolishing Newton's image of matter as inert lumps. This development is the theory of chaos, which has recently gained widespread attention.

- Paul Davies and John Gribbin, 'The Matter Myth'

Quote:
As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.


- Max Planck, 'Das Wesen der Materie', 1944

Quantum Mechanics kills all determinism due to the basic and fundamental uncertainty principle:

Quote:
In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is any of a variety of mathematical inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle known as complementary variables, such as position x and momentum p, can be known simultaneously. For instance, the more precisely the position of some particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa ... The uncertainty principle is inherent in the properties of all wave-like systems, and it arises in quantum mechanics simply due to the matter wave nature of all quantum objects. Thus, the uncertainty principle actually states a fundamental property of quantum systems, and is not a statement about the observational success of current technology.


It simply is IMPOSSIBLE to know and predict things 100%, and that means, determinism is dead.

Then there is the recent relatively certain evidence for the existence of the Higgs Boson. This means:

Quote:
"Empty space is like a medium, and as particles travel through this medium, some of them interact with it, some of them don’t interact with it. The ones that do interact with this medium, they acquire masses. The ones that pass through without interacting, those are our massless particles.” Ellis compares this to an endless field of snow, with different particles either gliding on the top (like fast, “massless” skiers) or sinking down into it (like a person walking in deep powder).
...
On a more philosophical level — and the reason why the Higgs has been known as the “God Particle” — it makes a difference to our state of mind believing that most of the mass in the universe is explained as opposed to 96% random. There are still the mysteries of dark matter, dark energy and antimatter to sort out, but a Higgs universe is less of a godless anarchy than one without it.


What that means is, that matter is actually an EFFECT. It's not existing, it's SPONTANEOUSLY CREATED.

Why is this important?

Quote:
The basic proposition of these two categories (materialism and idealism) pertains to the nature of reality, and the primary distinction between them is the way they answer two fundamental questions: "what does reality consist of and how does it originate?" To idealists, spirit or mind or the objects of mind (ideas) are primary, and matter secondary. To materialists, matter is primary, and mind or spirit or ideas are secondary, the product of matter acting upon matter."


If matter is "vanishing away" and is created "out of thin air" as an effect of particle interaction, then there must be something BEHIND that matter (that ISN'T matter).

Then there is the phenomenon of QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT:

Quote:
Quantum entanglement occurs when particles such as photons, electrons, molecules and even small diamonds interact physically and then become separated; the type of interaction is such that each resulting member of a pair is properly described by the same quantum mechanical description (state), which is indefinite in terms of important factors such as position, momentum, spin, polarization, etc.
Quantum entanglement is a form of quantum superposition. When a measurement is made and it causes one member of such a pair to take on a definite value (e.g., clockwise spin), the other member of this entangled pair will at any subsequent time be found to have taken the appropriately correlated value (e.g., counterclockwise spin). Thus, there is a correlation between the results of measurements performed on entangled pairs, and this correlation is observed even though the entangled pair may have been separated by arbitrarily large distances. In quantum entanglement, part of the transfer happens instantaneously. Repeated experiments have verified that this works even when the measurements are performed more quickly than light could travel between the sites of measurement: there is no slower-than-light influence that can pass between the entangled particles. Recent experiments have shown that this transfer occurs at least 10,000 times faster than the speed of light, which does not remove the possibility of it being an instantaneous phenomenon, but only sets a lower limit.


Why is THAT important?

Because all interactions of MATTER can happen only with speeds (significantly) LOWER than that of light. If, however, the interaction between entangled pairs is INSTANTANEOUS, it follows that there is a really beyond and around ours that on one hand is causing our reality, but on the other negates all ideas of space, time, matter and mass. Or, in other word - there is an IMMATERIAL reality behind the material one.

So where does all that leave materialism?

Now, don't expect me to take part in any discussion of the issue. While in my opinion this sinks materialism, everyone must make their own conclusions and since "proof" is pretty elusive, one way or another, this whole thing runs on the believe-level anyway.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 01, 2013 02:23 PM

Quote:

It simply is IMPOSSIBLE to know and predict things 100%, and that means, determinism is dead.


At a quantum scale.  Quantum level events are completely probabilistic; however for large ensembles of particles, behavior is predictable.  The question is whether that deterministic behavior is real or illusory.  Scientifically, everything is based on a law of averages.

Very nice post by the way.  

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
fauch
fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 01, 2013 04:08 PM

I guess the fact that I'm opposed to the current economic system makes me a materialist, since the current idea of economy seems to hope that reality will adapt to its ideas, and not the contrary.

though, adapting economy to the reality is exactly what current economy would call idealism

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 01, 2013 04:08 PM

What about the supposed quantum processes in the brain? They would kill determinism for human behaviour/thinking.

Also, aren't there other probability effects? Radioactive decay, for example.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted May 01, 2013 04:33 PM
Edited by artu at 16:54, 01 May 2013.

Quote:
Or, in other word - there is an IMMATERIAL reality behind the material one.

If matter is "vanishing away" and is created "out of thin air" as an effect of particle interaction, then there must be something BEHIND that matter (that ISN'T matter).


Not in the sense that idealism proclaims. The immaterial of quantum physics and the immaterial of idealism does not refer to the same concept. If you look at the opening post, the slight shift in the meaning of materialism is already stated. For example what is written in your example below is totally within the boundaries of materialism (as opposed to idealism). Unless you try to explain it with a super-natural force, which is still considered unscientific. Science still uses the naturalistic method  (to explain nature by only natural phenomenon) and the naturalist method is very well materialism:  

Quote:
Quantum entanglement is a form of quantum superposition. When a measurement is made and it causes one member of such a pair to take on a definite value (e.g., clockwise spin), the other member of this entangled pair will at any subsequent time be found to have taken the appropriately correlated value (e.g., counterclockwise spin). Thus, there is a correlation between the results of measurements performed on entangled pairs, and this correlation is observed even though the entangled pair may have been separated by arbitrarily large distances. In quantum entanglement, part of the transfer happens instantaneously. Repeated experiments have verified that this works even when the measurements are performed more quickly than light could travel between the sites of measurement: there is no slower-than-light influence that can pass between the entangled particles. Recent experiments have shown that this transfer occurs at least 10,000 times faster than the speed of light, which does not remove the possibility of it being an instantaneous phenomenon, but only sets a lower limit.



Quote:
On a more philosophical level — and the reason why the Higgs has been known as the “God Particle” — it makes a difference to our state of mind believing that most of the mass in the universe is explained as opposed to 96% random. There are still the mysteries of dark matter, dark energy and antimatter to sort out, but a Higgs universe is less of a godless anarchy than one without it.


Usually this nickname for the Higgs boson is attributed to Leon Lederman, the author of the book The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question?, but the name is the result of the insistence of Lederman's publisher: Lederman had originally intended to refer to it as the "goddamn particle" Randerson, James (June 30, 2008). "Father of the 'God Particle'". The Guardian (London). Higgs himself is an atheist by the way, not that his personal belief significantly matters. Nor does Max Planck's.

An as far as I know, quantum mechanics is used in today's electronics and processors. Do you call that an idealistic technology?


P.S. I started this thread because I enjoy discussing this stuff, I think it would be much more productive if you don't act all high and mighty when an opinion of yours is objected. Let's keep it about "ideas" not egos.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 01, 2013 05:41 PM

It's probably useless to even try, because you seem to concentrate on personal attacks, but I think you are mistaking something here, artu:

Quote:
The basic proposition of these two categories (materialism and idealism) pertains to the nature of reality, and the primary distinction between them is the way they answer two fundamental questions: what does reality consist of and how does it originate?" To idealists, spirit or mind or the objects of mind (ideas) are primary, and matter secondary. To materialists, matter is primary, and mind or spirit or ideas are secondary, the product of matter acting upon matter."

How can something be primary that is only an effect?

And to quote myself from page 2 of this:

Quote:
We don't even know whether the materialism/idealism debate makes sense, because both may be based on wrong assumptions.


With a view on the bold print, whether that's against your beliefs or not, FOR ME materialism is quite wrong, and I laid down a couple of reasons and evidential facts, that FOR ME leave not much doubt here. If you interpret them in a different way, that's your privilege, but you will excuse me, when I put more trust into Max Planck's ideas than into yours, which, to me look like a misunderstanding of what is actually at stake here, which isn't the empirical method to gain insights, and whether the use of these insights to transform the material world makes reality materialistic in nature.

Now, while I COULD make a point of how insights lead to ideas, leading to twisting material reality into a different shape,and while I could ask, whether mathematics are an idea or a "material thing" (the answer being an idea), and what it may mean that it's exactly this great idea that enables us to understand and describe reality, I actually don't want that, simply because I'm not sure the truth is EITHER/OR. Meaning, while I'm sure that materialism is a fluke, for me it doesn't necessarily follow that this leaves idealism as the only possible consequence. This question is rather old, and may not be correct (as the determinism versus free will may not be the either/or thing it's supposed to be.

Be that as it may, I have no intention to follow you up on personally attacking others, especially since this is your thread, so I'll simply leave it at that.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0868 seconds