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| Thread: Heroes 6 SOD strategy: Playing Dungeon faction |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Althea
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 10, 2013 10:47 AM |
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Well, try to test it yourself, what i said above are all based on real test and experiment.
The damage bonus of might power and magic power gives to WB is the same as the bonus they give to HA. Both abilities have connection with normal attack, in a different way though.
Suggestion, make a save. Choose a target, first don't take Assailant 1, do WB, then reload the save, attack the same target, take Assailant 1, your WB damage will be increased.
Then do the same test, but this time don't take heroism/mass heroism first, then do WB, then reload and take heroism/mass heroism your WB damage will be increased precisely as 17% or 12% (depends on which heroism).
It also works with other damage modifier like Rampage for example. This will increase WB damage too. Heroic Charge don't affect WB.
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Caracal
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2013 05:50 PM |
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Edited by Caracal at 17:54, 12 Jun 2013.
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Hello guys. It's my first post on this amazing forum. I have read tons of posts about dungeon on these fora and learnt more in last 2 weeks than in last 10 years of playing solo against computer  . I have question though about HOMAM VI dungeon MAGIC. I did finish campaign and since Realag is might oriented I didn't have much of a taste of magic. I did play one map and offensive magic felt SOOOO WEAK. Don't get me wrong it was pretty potent in early creeping and in mid game but in last two battles where we had champion units in hundreds and rest in either hundreds or thousands....my firestorm, blizzard and implosion were pathetic even with 35+ magic damage (I understand it's spellpower equivalent). Versus might haven with similar army I was annihilated. I had to wait 2 3 more weeks and come back with twice bigger army. I know I made a lot of mistakes since I had no idea how to properly use creatures abilities and racial as well but come on.....is offensive magic that bad in end game? If it is can U make list what dungeon magic hero should focus on? I was choosing all the most damaging spells but someone mentioned somewhere that it's the crowd control that really matter. Another thing - what is best dynasty weapon for magic dungeon? I have unlocked Will of Urgash (I think that's what it was called) and frankly I didn't see any better weapon for my mage. Please advice how to improve my dungeon magic game or should I go straight for might?
Much obliged
Caracal
ps. for comparison I had 240 BD oponent had 150 archangels. Angels were killing 22 of my dragons, my dragons were killing about 10 15 angels and my super duper hyper implosion....was killing 6 angels..0-0
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 12, 2013 07:10 PM |
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First, no heroes game should last that long. What is this battle with 150+ champions? What month was it?
Second, only 35 spellpower? That`s not much also but it doesn`t matter when it comes to such army sizes.
If you see duel creature count - around 20-23 Champions, 50 of each Elites, 150-200 of each Core - I think it is balanced between might and magic.
That is week 5 army on my map. If you end game on week 4 the balance shifts towards magic - I posted a replay here where I anihilate with Moonsoon, Chain Lightning etc in just 3 turn battle.
On the other hand if you end the game on week 7+ the balance shifts towards might.
Your spellpower is way out of the reach to counter that many creatures. It is impossible 
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 12, 2013 07:48 PM |
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Quote:
I have question though about HOMAM VI dungeon MAGIC. I did finish campaign and since Realag is might oriented I didn't have much of a taste of magic. I did play one map and offensive magic felt SOOOO WEAK.
In my opinion as time goes on direct damage spells get "weaker" compared to the growing armies. You're not going to be able to win the battles on "offensive" magic alone. You'll often need to cast an earth elemental to block shooters and draw the attention of other creatures. You'll need a couple of crowd control spells like Time Stasis and petrification. You'll need mass healing/regeneration spells to heal your troops. You can still hurl your chain lightning and fireballs but you can't do just that.
All staffs that give a manna reduction to spells are bugged and will wind up causing a manna increase instead during saves/loads. They became bugged in the newest patch. Will of Urgash is one of those staffs.
I like Asha's Eightfold staff, especially for a younger mage. If you have it maxed it doubles the effectiveness of the first spell you cast in a battle. It also gives some manna and magic stats. Of course when you get meditation your manna woes are pretty much over.
The Oblivion with its dazed effect when damaging spells are cast may help you play a bit more offensive spell oriented mage, as you'd get some crowd control thrown with your damaging spells.
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Caracal
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2013 08:15 PM |
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Edited by Caracal at 23:32, 12 Jun 2013.
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thanks for tips and to clarify I was playing gigantic map with 6 + towns and lots of dwellings hence it took so long and armies grew so large also since It was my first single player game I took my time to explore the map and discover things (learning what do things look like etc.) Another question comes to my mind. Do You mix migth with magic builds? Or are U going for pure magic or pure might? In previous games specially in Homam V it was bad idea to go for example defense, attack, war machines when U play with academy but it seems in Homam VI it is a bit more lenient. Should I take things like counterattack or tougness or tactics while playing with magic oriented hero? Or should I take as much spells as possible?
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If you see duel creature count - around 20-23 Champions, 50 of each Elites, 150-200 of each Core - I think it is balanced between might and magic.
yes thats DUEL means one on one and I rarely play one on one simply cause it's too easy and predictable. Nothing spices game up more than when You just beat one computer in huge armies battle which left You practically defenseless and another computer approaches with 5 times bigger army ^^ Now that's when Heroes player starts to shine. But I really appriciate that pointing out the fact of shifting magic to might as time goes by. I will surely keep that in mind and will try to end game asap while playing with mage in future.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 13, 2013 07:35 AM |
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Heroes V academy goes very well with attack and defense.
You should always take 'Tactics I' no matter the class. When you are a tear mage why not take 7 def from Defender I and II and so on. I take Archery I and II with necropolis blood magic class.
To sum up I take passive might skills with a magic class.
I don`t play duels also I just used duel army size as a pointer about balance. The game really shines if you play with someone on equal skill level on a good custom map!
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Althea
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 13, 2013 05:24 PM |
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Edited by Althea at 17:24, 13 Jun 2013.
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It's better to be hybrid with dungeon magic. From my experience, the only faction that can be played purely as magic is that sanctuary or haven, their creature have many things important, even a super version of regeneration/heal.
Also regarding that kind of map with 6 players, forget damage spells, better pick might skills and go hybrid. And regarding why damage spells in H6 is weaker than in previous heroes games, it's because it's only in H6 that there are 2 variable that mitigate the damage of the spells, Elemental Resistance and Magic Defence, both mitigate by percent, in previous heroes games, only Elemental Resistance decrease spell damage.
And in case of Magic Defence it's number can reach ridiculously absurd, like 50% or more.
The town convert mechanic also make damage spells in H6 is much weaker than in previous heroes games (though indirectly).
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 13, 2013 08:29 PM |
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Heroes VI magic is the best so far in every heroes game I think.
It is equal to might army till week 6. That`s a lot - for example in Heroes V magic was beginning to feel weak week 5 already.
Heroes III is worse for magic..
Well done Ubisoft!
The game was not designed to be balanced for month 3 army ..
What does it mean to go hybrid? I will never take Heroism, Evasive Manouevers with a magic hero. I only pick passives - toughness, defense, assailant, archery
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Caracal
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 13, 2013 09:26 PM |
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Edited by Caracal at 21:35, 13 Jun 2013.
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It is equal to might army till week 6. That`s a lot - for example in Heroes V magic was beginning to feel weak week 5 already.
Natalka why do U think so? From my expierience the more time passes by the more spell power I could get with my hero reaching 4k implosions in month 3 how is that weak? Another thing about Homam III. U said that magic was the worst there? I remember doing 6 to 10k with implosions on the biggest maps with like 15 towns after my hero reached 30 40 level. Running around with 100 BDs and spamming armageddon for 4k didn't feel like week at all to me As a matter of fact I remember reading somewhere that Homam III was too magic oriented.
And another thing. From ur post it would seem that Ubi made game for players who can finish it within 1 month. What about maps with 8 players? Have U ever played those? Have U ever finished them in 1 month or even 2?
I'm not mocking here, just curious about Your thoughts 
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The game was not designed to be balanced for month 3 army ..
that would suggest that game was designed to either maps 1vs1 players or small to medium size
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And in case of Magic Defence it's number can reach ridiculously absurd, like 50% or more.
I forgot about that and that makes it logical Thx for pointing that out.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 14, 2013 10:02 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 10:18, 14 Jun 2013.
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Natalka why do U think so? From my expierience the more time passes by the more spell power I could get with my hero reaching 4k implosions in month 3 how is that weak?
I get 45-50 Magic Power and 5-6 K implosions week 3-4.
As the time passes by you can acquire more Magic Power if the map allows it to but 50 Magic Power is already high enough. Moreover your increase in spell damage is much lower than the hit point increase in the might army. And as I said before you may find more Magic Power on the map or you may not while the might army increases steadily.
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after my hero reached 30 40 level
It is not normal to play till such a high level. I assume you played vs AI.
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What about maps with 8 players? Have U ever played those? Have U ever finished them in 1 month or even 2?
Yes, I have played and finished them week 5. I don`t need to kill everything on the map to win.
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that would suggest that game was designed to either maps 1vs1 players or small to medium size
Why? If everyone creeps fast then they will meet somewhere around week 4-5 and finish the game.
You can play the game as you like - end week 12, collect all stuff on map, diplomacy, etc. But then you can`t expect it to be balanced and make statements about magic being weak when it is not the case.
Magic damage and Creature Power are two mathematical curves. On the X axis are the weeks and on the Y axis is the effectivness.
Firstly, Magic Damage is on top and they intersect at about week 5-6.
After that creature power gets on top and it increases rapidly.
It has always been like that in Heroes games. Its in their mechanics.
DIEGIS should explain better. He is a teacher in Maths
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Caracal
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 14, 2013 05:28 PM |
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Edited by Caracal at 17:31, 14 Jun 2013.
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Yes I do agree with everything You said but You were referring to Homam 3 before and now Ur refering to Homam VI I think. I just wanted to point out that magic in Homam 3 was overpowered and the more time passed by the more powerfull U were in Homam 3 (U mentioned before that magic was worse and worse with time in homam 3) and as for Homam VI it is exactly as You say and now I understand that. Thank You for good feedback.
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Why? If everyone creeps fast then they will meet somewhere around week 4-5 and finish the game.
hehe yes I was playing with AI and ofc it can't creep that fast hence it takes longer to kill 8 comps cause You have to find them first but I do see it now as U mentioned that with 8 players creeping fast it sounds possible to end it in month.
Remember that Your talking to total MP noob to whom finishing heroes in 1 month borders with miracle hehe.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 14, 2013 11:13 PM |
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Map size is limited, so the sp to be gained is limited too. You can get all sp artifacts, visit stats boosters that give + 50sp and end up with 100 sp. If you wait and wait both your and you opponents armies will exceed 100 lvl 7 troops and then you magic hero @ss will get looped.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2013 03:25 PM |
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For me the most important/interesting thing they added in H6 to balance might x magic were magic dmg units. So for magic heroes the power of your army will also help you to some extent. In H5 we had spellcaster units, but if I remember well, they had more limitations and some diminishing returns on their spells.
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Althea
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 15, 2013 03:57 PM |
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A good point there jhb. Right, compared with previous heroes games, H6 succeed in terms of balancing magic of creatures, but fail at magic of heroes.
Damage Magic in H5 is much better than in H6, explain to me how we can reach 10k damage implosion in H6 in week 6? I doubt there is even an explanation there while in H5 it's possible (and yes we must be a warlock and yes it's week 6 and yes unfortunately that's lucky empowered implosion, still, it's possible).
Without even being even an average player of Heroes, if we just look at the mechanic of the game, we can easily see that H6 is the worst for damage spells (heroes spells not creatures. Look at previous heroes, which variable mitigate spell damage, only elemental resistance (fire resist, earth resist, etc), look at H6, beside elemental resistance there's also magic resistance.
Regarding of damage spells in H6 vs H3, H3 is better, the damage of the spells are roughly equal (if the spell/magic power is equal), but H3 only have 1 variable that mitigate spell damage while H6 have 2, without being even an average player of heroes game, it can easily be seen which one is better. Though i don't like damage spells in H3.
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Caracal
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 16, 2013 09:49 AM |
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Quote:
Without even being even an average player of Heroes, if we just look at the mechanic of the game, we can easily see that H6 is the worst for damage spells (heroes spells not creatures. Look at previous heroes, which variable mitigate spell damage, only elemental resistance (fire resist, earth resist, etc), look at H6, beside elemental resistance there's also magic resistance.
I totally agree with this statement but...I agree that for the first time might and magic in homam game IS balanced thx to this. I alway play dungeon and I am used to high dmg end spells and I have played with them since Homam 2 but that doesn't mean they were ever balanced
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 18, 2013 01:31 PM |
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10 K implosions?
I calculated with 45 Spell Power and the damage is 2760 (without luck)
H6 - week 6 - Magic Power - 50 + 20 from Meditation = 70 Magic Power
Implosion did 3760 dmg before applying the bonus from Shadow Blessing(
23 % Base Magic Power Increase)
Then don`t forget there are lucky spells here too but let`s rule out luck in both comparisons because luck was nerfed in H6.
There was no Magic Defense before BUT
1) There is no Magic Immunity
2) There are no minor artifacts for 50 % Elemental Reduce
I said that magic is better than any other heroes game, not spells in particular. Ofc magic creatures contribute to magic being on par with might.
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Althea
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 18, 2013 02:34 PM |
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It seems we grasp it differently then, but i stated it clearly that i mean spell damage is weaker in H6 than previous heroes, not magic overall, if magic vs might, then it's roughly equal indeed just like jhp said above.
You seems to forget that your 70 spell powered implosion +23% bonus will still do like 4624,8 damage, and seeing how easy to reach 50% magic defend for most faction (magic hero) including even orc (who are regarded as more might than magic), then the real number is just half of that 4.6k, which is 2,3k.
As for the 10k one, i didn't calculate, but i did it myself, unfortunately it was long ago (more than 3 years, the last time i played heroes game), and i did it with warlock. Let's not forget empowered spell meaning +50% damage, add elemental chain, +warlock luck to double the final damage, 10k damage is not even the highest one, someone once post a screenshot doing 15k and 18k damage implosion. There's artifacts that increase spell damage by x percent there.
50% magic defence minor artifact only available for academy, while everyone can reach 50% magic defend in H6, a clear massive difference, it's like everyone get access to 50% magic defence minor arties here.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 18, 2013 03:00 PM |
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The argument is becoming retarded already. You can now add to the dmg +50 % earth dmg arties and so on.
My number for implosion was against a hero with 26 magic defense. I already calculated that Magic Defense you are talking about. If you want remove 20 % more but it seems h6 implosion beats that from H5
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Caracal
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 18, 2013 06:02 PM |
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Edited by Caracal at 07:20, 19 Jun 2013.
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10k implosions I remember doing these in Homam 3 and 5 myself. How on earth do U mean that heroes 6 implosion with it's 2-3k dmg is better? I think I'm missing something cause according to my math 10k is bigger than 3k...pls elaborate cause I thnk I lost You.
Oh I think U ment unmitigated....which in that case could be but it's not important cause it will ALWAYS be mitigated not like implosion from previous parts.
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All staffs that give a manna reduction to spells are bugged and will wind up causing a manna increase instead during saves/loads. They became bugged in the newest patch. Will of Urgash is one of those staffs.
As a matter of fact they do work properly. I have just obtained Arachne in Necropolis campaign and checked if mana reduction works properly and it does.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2013 09:31 AM |
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Well, apparently my post is gone (after HC crashed my last post went missing and i deleted my post when i was whining about it ) so i'll write from memory:
Reinforcement (all numbers same duel might tears dungeon hero; approximate numbers):
- Shades: 50
- Eyes: 61
- Chakram Dancers: 64
- Manticore: 16
- Minotaurs: 16
- Puppeteers: 19
- Black Dragons: 4
I was hoping that since Minotaurs are so cheap (gold wise) more of them would be reinforced. From the numbers above, i'd say that there is absolutely no need for reinforcement II or III
Assassin master
The hero specialization gives + 5 attack to assassins which translates into a 10,2% increase in dmg. Not worth it, imho.
taunt and black dragons and invisibility
This might be obvious, but 3rd lvl tears warcry taunt works on black dragon and its the only way to control the dragons (apart from taunting presence of Ravagers). Taunt also works on units that are under cloak, even though it is not visible by the animation. Hard to say whether this is a bug or intended.
Very useful. I advise to take vs Dungeon.
The whole magic usefulness discussion
I'm on the natalka side. I have very, very limited experience playing maps but as far as i know most people go for blood mage in MP. Games end very quickly, for example my matchup with friend on crystal caverns ended during the 2cd week. Blizzard killed both my strongest stacks. So i'd say the magic is very strong on maps, but usually loses in duels.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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