|
| Thread: Hellburn's Heroes 4 creature tests | |
|
hellburn
Famous Hero
The efreet
|
posted May 29, 2013 07:03 PM |
|
|
Hellburn's Heroes 4 creature tests
Hello 
I've made some work. Tested every HoMM4 creature to create a ranking of some sort. You know, to see which creature is technically the best among its level.
Rules:
1. Only 1 stack vs 1 stack.
2. 10 fights in total for every pair.
3. 5 fights for every creature to move/cast spell/shoot/attack first.
4. The quantity of stack is 10*week growth (example 60 golems vs. 90 pikemans).
5. For every won fight creature gets 1 point. For every lost fight -1.
6. To avoid negative values in ranks, I added the worst score to every other score.. I hope that you'll understand this ;P.
7. If creature got negative/positive morale, I skip turns to delete the positive/negative buff EXCEPT the it is from the casted spell.
8. Neutral terrain EXCEPT pirates fight both on land and on the water.
9. Before fights that counted, I tried to figure out the way to get the best performance from both unit stacks. I was absolutely objective.
10. If a certain unit is a shooter or spellcaster, I put it on defensive stance (back). If unit is offensive attacker - offensive (forward).
11. Winds of War, no Equilibris.
The results
I know that these tests have some flaws (f.ex. cyclops/catapults which attack area) but other than that I think that it actually reflects the true creature values, and shows which are the best, and which are the worst.
Sorry for my english, I'm writing this with haste  .
Cheers and feel free to comment .
____________
|
|
DarkDXZ
Known Hero
Haiku sensei
|
|
posted May 29, 2013 07:31 PM |
|
|
So...
Berserkers OP?
Good job on the research, though.
____________
"If I can't determine whether people are trolling or not within a moment's notice I will just start flailing with this chainaxe without any particular aim besides general slaughter." - Adrius
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted May 29, 2013 07:55 PM |
|
|
Yes I was testing just normal but I can't until the end. But ..  Ok good job!
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach
|
|
sammydakid
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted May 30, 2013 01:30 AM |
|
|
|
this is cool good research! you should do the same test with level 4 units and post those results.
|
|
hellburn
Famous Hero
The efreet
|
|
posted May 30, 2013 09:55 AM |
|
|
I've done these tests with all creatures from every level. Everything is in the link I provided.
____________
|
|
BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
|
|
posted May 31, 2013 02:26 PM |
|
|
|
Sorry to say but your research is useless in online game. You can beat every non-shooter 1lvl with fairy.
|
|
hellburn
Famous Hero
The efreet
|
|
posted May 31, 2013 03:11 PM |
|
|
I didn't say that this is legit ranking in all situations. There is a word "technically"...
Sooo... that's your opinion. Not very constructive, but it's yours .
____________
|
|
theunknown
Known Hero
|
|
posted May 31, 2013 06:46 PM |
|
|
It's not a bad idea, but may mislead new and non-experienced players.
After a while in the game you learn that the level 1 creatures are only useful if you play a map where you need to get a fast win on some mine or town or similar in the first few days when you still can't build higher level creature buildings ... or you can't hit-n-run with your heroes.
Wolves may be the lowest rank by your predetermined conditions but if used well they are one of the best damage dealers and you don't lose too much of them because they have good basic stats and hp and even a decent speed and movement.
About the lvl 1 list I agree with about 80% of the rankings.
I almost fully agree with the list about lvl 2 creatures, in fact I believe that the second level creatures have an almost if not perfect balance between, so there isn't much difference between the elf and pikemen even though they are ranked last and first, even the neutrals are perfectly balanced.
About lvl 3 it's fun how the ogre mages rank in the middle tier and they are next to useless in reality (because of movement mostly). Goblin knights are overpowered but luckily they aren't part of town armies. The rest I think are ok, so I believe the balance here is great too except in these two cases.
About lvl 4, how do you make the Dragon Golem get the second last place? I don't get it ... They win against Champions, Black Dragons, Bone Dragons and probably a couple of others too. I think you could've done a „better“ testing too because their speed and first strike should give them a bigger place for sure. Angels can make the first move almost against all creatures so they can wait if needed or attack, then resurrect so they should have a lot better rating too. Almost any creature can outwait the hydra and the one that can't (Bone Dragon) has no retaliation ... The Hydra should have a lower rating, it loses to many lvl 4 creatures, but is more useful in true situations where you can use the all around strike ability. Catapult's place is expected because it's more useful in real situation not with these kind of conditions. The in game balance is pretty good for lvl 4 creatures too so there basically isn't much difference from the first to last (for town creatures that is) although there are some cases like the Black Dragon vs the Faerie Dragon where win is impossible.
The lvl4 list should be remade a bit or totally with probably different kind of testing. The Faerie Dragon will have worse results if you have tactics from both sides, if you include morale in half the battles(GM tactics gives 5 morale) the Bone Dragon will lose hard to many other creatures and their rank will decline by a mile, even the Fairies will lose some more because morale gives extra melee damage, this goes for the lower level casters too.
All in all it's nice to see such a list, gives us more perception on the usefulness on a certain creature, the only rule I didn't like was Quote:
3. 5 fights for every creature to move/cast spell/shoot/attack first.
, you should pick any action depending on the creature, for example angels sometimes may favor waiting and sometimes they may want to attack right away (against champions wait, against faeries go straight away), your rule should only be applied if creatures have the same speed (even then it depends on movement). Also, I believe you would get better results if you include tactics too alongside the non-tactics results.
|
|
DarkDXZ
Known Hero
Haiku sensei
|
|
posted June 01, 2013 05:01 PM |
|
|
Wait...
Where did you get the Megadragon costs from?
Unless Equillibris adds it, I don't recall there being a Megadragon dwelling. (even if there is, you said that it's WoW you were testing this on and not Equillibris)
____________
"If I can't determine whether people are trolling or not within a moment's notice I will just start flailing with this chainaxe without any particular aim besides general slaughter." - Adrius
|
|
karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 11, 2013 12:09 PM |
|
|
it would probably be more fair to double the cost of the megadragon. I can't remember if the costs are mentioned in the manuel, but setting cost to the same as Black Dragons seems unrealistic.
Although interesting reading I must agree that some rankings don't match in-game experiences. Guess some also depends on the player.
|
|
hellburn
Famous Hero
The efreet
|
|
posted June 12, 2013 08:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Wait...
Where did you get the Megadragon costs from?
There may be no dwelling, but this comes from the game txt files which store informations about every unit in the game.
____________
|
|
sammydakid
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 13, 2013 08:29 AM |
|
|
|
You could do a different sort of test, one where you buy as many units for a stack as possible with a set amount of gold, say 50,000 then have them fight. This may be a more practical test, as it would determine a units cost effectiveness and what units give you the most "bang for your buck" so to speak. We can also say each unit of precious resource, (gems, crystals, mercury, sulfur) is 1000 gold, and each wood and ore unit is 500 gold, based off mine output.
|
|
fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 14, 2013 01:20 AM |
|
Edited by fauch at 03:15, 14 Jun 2013.
|
I'm surprised to see air elementals rank last. I think they improved their growth in equilibris, no? because I remember they were hard to defeat, very fast and as tough as rocks.
water elementals have a lot of draws 
|
|
BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
|
|
posted June 14, 2013 12:35 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I'm surprised to see air elementals rank last. I think they improved their growth in equilibris, no? because I remember they were hard to defeat, very fast and as tough as rocks.
water elementals have a lot of draws
Water elementals as a neutral enemy are very dangerous because they can kill many of your 4 lvl or heroes.
But they are too slow to take them - I always get mantis.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 20, 2013 04:59 PM |
|
|
|
I think water elemental were even notorious for being the only ones to beat genies in H4 vanilla.
|
|
MengTzu
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 02, 2013 08:13 AM |
|
|
Megadragons
Why do Megadragons have unit cost? I thought they cannot be recruited?
|
|
karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 02, 2013 02:09 PM |
|
|
MengTzu said:
Why do Megadragons have unit cost? I thought they cannot be recruited?
A Mega Dragon Dwelling has been made, just using a questhut. Anywho, their cost is listed in the WOW manual, even though they don't have an official dwelling.
|
|
MengTzu
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 02, 2013 08:31 PM |
|
|
karmakeld said:
MengTzu said:
Why do Megadragons have unit cost? I thought they cannot be recruited?
A Mega Dragon Dwelling has been made, just using a questhut. Anywho, their cost is listed in the WOW manual, even though they don't have an official dwelling.
How does that work through a quest hut though? It would just be a one-time recruit and there is no growth, right?
|
|
karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 03, 2013 10:18 AM |
|
|
MengTzu said:
karmakeld said:
MengTzu said:
Why do Megadragons have unit cost? I thought they cannot be recruited?
A Mega Dragon Dwelling has been made, just using a questhut. Anywho, their cost is listed in the WOW manual, even though they don't have an official dwelling.
How does that work through a quest hut though? It would just be a one-time recruit and there is no growth, right?
Well, not if you don't remove the script ;-) Just scroll Down - http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=112 There's even a Seamonster Dwelling.
|
|
csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
|
|
posted September 07, 2013 07:45 PM |
|
Edited by csarmi at 19:47, 07 Sep 2013.
|
Leprechaun totally owns. Luck is a huge spell. 2/3 damage
Also: I hope you didn't autoplay the battles.
Nice testing and work btw!
____________
Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
|
|
|
|
