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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Game Of Thrones Discussion ~ *OURS* is the fury
Thread: Game Of Thrones Discussion ~ *OURS* is the fury This thread is 28 pages long: 1 10 ... 15 16 17 18 19 ... 20 28 · «PREV / NEXT»
friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


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posted May 06, 2019 01:05 PM
Edited by friendofgunnar at 13:07, 06 May 2019.

artu said:
On an open field battle, you charge them and support them with cannons (tribuchets) so that they are able to take out as many infantry as they can before opposing armies clash into each other.


Sending your cavalry alone unsupported against a mass of infantry is about the most foolish thing a commander can do.  Any military historian could have told B & W that. Hollywood has a terrible habit of not hiring professional knowledge people when they need to.  Every aspect of the battles in both ep 3 and ep 4 were retarded beyond belief.  Seriously, would it kill them to at least put a helmet on the people?  They could have each had unique helmets which likely would have also saved money by the use of stunt doubles.


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Elvin
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posted May 06, 2019 03:23 PM

The Battle of Winterfell tactics analysed: Crimes Against Medieval Realism

by Shadiversity

More on cavalry around 7 mins.

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artu
artu


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posted May 06, 2019 04:27 PM

@friendofgunnar & elvin

But they were not unsupported, they had heavy tribuchet fire support

I watched the relevant part of the video, he says a direct charge is a bad idea if the opposing army is on a pike defense formation which was not the case. For the rest, to be able to comment, you must have detailed information about the landscape, the terrain, the numbers and their formation which none of us have, including him. To keep the horses indoors or behnid the castle would mean giving up the power of a heavy charge though. Nobody brought up how it was “never ever” the thing to do in the past episodes when the Dothraki succssessfully charged, right. Because it was indeed a thing:

Wikipedia
The cavalry charge was a significant tactic in the Middle Ages. Although cavalry had charged before, a combination of the adoption of a frame saddle secured in place by a breast-band, stirrups and the technique of couching the lance under the arm delivered a hitherto unachievable ability to utilise the momentum of the horse and rider. These developments began in the 7th century but were not combined to full effect until the 11th century.[6] The Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081) was an early instance of the familiar medieval cavalry charge; recorded to have a devastating effect by both Norman and Byzantine chroniclers. By the time of the First Crusade in the 1090s, the cavalry charge was being employed widely by European armies.[7]

However, from the dawn of the Hundred Years' War onward, the use of professional pikemen and longbowmen with high morale and functional tactics meant that a knight would have to be cautious in a cavalry charge. Men wielding either pike or halberd in formation, with high morale, could stave off all but the best cavalry charges, whilst English longbowmen could unleash a torrent of arrows capable of wreaking havoc, though not necessarily a massacre, upon the heads of heavy infantry and cavalry in unsuitable terrain. It became increasingly common for knights to dismount and fight as elite heavy infantry, although some continued to stay mounted throughout combat. The use of cavalry for flanking manoeuvres became more useful, although some interpretations of the knightly ideal often led to reckless, undisciplined charges.

Cavalry could still charge dense heavy infantry formations head-on if the cavalrymen had a combination of certain traits. They had a high chance of success if they were in a formation, collectively disciplined, highly skilled, and equipped with the best arms and armour, as well as mounted upon horses trained to endure the physical and mental stresses of such charges. However, the majority of cavalry personnel lacked at least one of these traits, particularly discipline, formations, and horses trained for head-on charges. Thus, the use of the head-on cavalry charge declined, although Polish hussars, French Cuirassiers, and Spanish and Portuguese conquistadores were still capable of succeeding in such charges, often due to their possession of the previously mentioned combination of the traits required for success in such endeavours.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted May 06, 2019 04:44 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 16:47, 06 May 2019.

The point of a heavy cavalry charge is to overwhelm the enemy with a dicisive hammer strike, repeat charges were common (for instance the famous polish hussars had to charge numerous times, we know this because of their ledgers suggest they had numerous lances for each battle). In order to break the enemy, thus the shock effect, the undead neither rout nor fear, trying to break them is suicide, the trouble with heavy cavalry is if they get bogged down they get worn down rapidly, something undead excell at doing by swarming over.

The trouble here is that it is light cavalry, poorly armoured (both horse and man) making the charge, which would've been ill-advised regardless of the foe. The Dothraki should've just used traditional horse archer tactics, there was no reason for them to suicide.

The cavalry had a single volley of artillery for support, the artillery being so poorly positioned it made my skin crawl (same for the infantry).

I can imagine only imagine a single logical reason for the exceptionally poor judgement in troop placements and the flow of battle. That the defenders wanted to appear so inapt as to place all their meat bags outside as a big juicy bait for the undead.
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Elvin
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posted May 06, 2019 06:49 PM
Edited by Elvin at 20:22, 06 May 2019.

The trebuchets weren't all that supportive, they immediately stopped shooting because of friendly fire.

Baiting the undead might make sense if the troops carried torches to light up the treches instead of expecting the archers to do it. With the dragons swooping from behind, trapping them between two fire zones or something. But even if they were baiting, they did not seem to have a plan for a fast retreat.



Jon screwed up, as usual. The new developments bring back the advisors back in the game though, things are getting interesting. I knew that the dragon would go down before long but.. how exactly did Dany not see the ships from up there? And marching the men after all this, what an idiot.
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verriker
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posted May 06, 2019 10:47 PM

Game of Thrones is starting to remind me of Heroes 5 in terms of how stupid the characters have become without the writing of George, very stupid illogical behaviors cheers lol
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Elvin
Elvin


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posted May 06, 2019 11:05 PM

At this point the ballistae are more supernatural than the dragons ^^
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blob2
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posted May 07, 2019 12:11 AM
Edited by blob2 at 00:13, 07 May 2019.

So many things going on and you guys are focusing on a goddamn cavalary charge, sheesh.

They were meant to be destroyed one way or another just to show the undead were OP. Why does it even matter if they did it according to Sun Tzu teachings or not?

Episode 5 was good. They even managed to create a GoT-y moment with Rhaegar, that was totally unexpected. And for all those sceptics, half of the episode was about scheming and backstabbing...

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tSar-Ivor
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posted May 07, 2019 12:22 AM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 00:24, 07 May 2019.

Elvin said:
At this point the ballistae are more supernatural than the dragons ^^


Why in crickey **** are the walls mounted with dozens of the damn things, they're really shilling out on that anti-dragon defence.

Also, can someone tell me why Cercei didn't just make mince-meat of Dany's little entourage. You'd think after blowing up the Sept of Baelor she wouldn't really give a **** about playin nice.
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Salamandre
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posted May 07, 2019 12:27 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 00:32, 07 May 2019.

Just watched first 3 episodes and show is fantastic. Don't know why are you bickering, of course there has to be stupid behavior, which has to lead to catastrophic results, otherwise it would be like Chuck Norris entering a bar fight, even my grand mother knows how will end.

My only grip would be about Aria killing the dead boss. Too fast, too easy, considering all the carnage and failures before.

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verriker
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posted May 07, 2019 12:51 AM

Salamandre said:
Just watched first 3 episodes and show is fantastic. Don't know why are you bickering, of course there has to be stupid behavior, which has to lead to catastrophic results, otherwise it would be like Chuck Norris entering a bar fight, even my grand mother knows how will end.

My only grip would be about Aria killing the dead boss. Too fast, too easy, considering all the carnage and failures before.


make sure to fearlessly hit quote on a guy you want to attack contradict lest otherwise you fart to the wall (like in that Heroes 5 cutscene where they cast the random spell) cheers lol
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tSar-Ivor
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posted May 07, 2019 01:12 AM

God tempted to replay Heroes 5, Raelag was my one true child-hood crush, funnily he's suffering from the same syndrome I am.
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Elvin
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posted May 07, 2019 06:05 AM
Edited by Elvin at 06:07, 07 May 2019.

Being unable to hold his tongue when dealing with idiots?

I'm glad there is intrigue back in the game but I do not appreciate that this is only possible because of Jon's stupidity.

And I still cannot get over those op ballistae. So Dany takes an aerial stroll, flies low enough, does not see a whole fleet that somehow has a good aim at that distance and angle and also has enough power to insta-kill a dragon or tear apart a ship. Then she flies all over their face, dodging their bolts and.. Leaves. If she was gonna retreat why get closer in the first place? Burninate those basterds from above!
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blob2
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posted May 07, 2019 09:34 AM
Edited by blob2 at 09:41, 07 May 2019.

Elvin said:
I'm glad there is intrigue back in the game but I do not appreciate that this is only possible because of Jon's stupidity


We all know he is honest to the extreme. It costed him his life once. He won't change.

Elvin said:
And I still cannot get over those op ballistae. So Dany takes an aerial stroll, flies low enough, does not see a whole fleet that somehow has a good aim at that distance and angle and also has enough power to insta-kill a dragon or tear apart a ship. Then she flies all over their face, dodging their bolts and.. Leaves. If she was gonna retreat why get closer in the first place? Burninate those basterds from above!


It was worth it. All for the best GoT-y moment of the episode, though rip Rhaegar, you will be missed Well, part of the charm of attacking with this weapon was it's surprise value. The same thing happened with NK who impaled Viserion. As soon as you know what you're dealing with it's easier to react. You are forgetting this was an ambush, they didn't expect an attack near Dragonstone. And even if they did see them beforehand, what would they do? A head on attack didn't work, it was too risky. And there was no guarantee one of the dragons wouldn't be shot either way in the course of the battle, shock-value or not. It was an unwinnable battle cus they weren't prepared for it. They would need a solid fleet (Yara?) to occupy them in order to get closer (that's probably their main mistake, they didn't wait for Yara). They are dealing with the best fleet in Westeros while having mercenaries and northerners with no experience in sea battles on ships. And when you think about it why even bother to analyze it? This is called a plot device, and it is done for entertainment, to set a stage for further events, to add to the drama. What is the sense of making historically accurate battles in fantasy series in which you need dramaturgy and changing odds (-1 dragon, -1 fleet)? Tell me?

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artu
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posted May 07, 2019 11:49 AM

No matter how you stretch it, she not burning the ships was absurd beyond any belief. I mean, at one point I thougt if breathing fire slowed the dragon down and if it was too risky but we’ve all seen them many times, scorch diving the surface in an instant before. Wooden ships should have been sitting ducks no matter how big the arrows were. To manuaver those things around as fast as a dragon is impossible.
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Elvin
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posted May 07, 2019 12:19 PM
Edited by Elvin at 12:24, 07 May 2019.

It's just lazy writing blob. It's not like the ambushers knew which flight route she'd take or if she'd fly low enough to be in ballista range. Were they waiting just in case all possible prerequisites were met?

That aside, fleeing after all this dodging while having closed the distance where she could attack from above is just infuriating. What would they do, shoot straight up?

Also ballista with cannon power..

This is not nitpicking, both cases are ridiculous.
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Geny
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posted May 07, 2019 01:36 PM

Quote:
And even if they did see them beforehand, what would they do?

Fly around and attack from behind, because the ballista's are mounted on the bow and can't aim through their own sails.
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blob2
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posted May 07, 2019 01:58 PM
Edited by blob2 at 14:08, 07 May 2019.

Elvin said:
It's just lazy writing blob. It's not like the ambushers knew which flight route she'd take or if she'd fly low enough to be in ballista range. Were they waiting just in case all possible prerequisites were met?


You can only access Dragonstone from one side. They weren't expecting an ambush cus they didn't know they had a weapon against dragons and thus be on the offensive. Normally Grejyoy fleet would be defenseless against dragonfire. At this point the Alliance thought that waiting in Kings Landing is the only choice Cersei has. Obviously the odds changed.

Elvin said:
That aside, fleeing after all this dodging while having closed the distance where she could attack from above is just infuriating. What would they do, shoot straight up?


To tell you the truth, I wasn't very fond of her decision either. But at this point she panicked. She panicked that she could've lost everything. Just look at Greyjoys reaction: he didn't expect her to withdraw. Nor did her allies (watch the scene again). She was in shock of loosing one dragon, she probably was afraid to loose Drogon. It was a split-second decision, she choose to withdraw, for better (not dying) or worse (loosing the fleet). Remember that Danerys and her dragon are still their best bet against Cersei.

Elvin said:
Also ballista with cannon power..

This is not nitpicking, both cases are ridiculous.


Might be. But whenever I hear real-life/historical warfare arguments against fantasy warfare, that is silly for me... we are discussing firing cannon power-level balliste against Dragons.

But I must agree on one thing: Euron Greyjoy is too strong of plot device, Cersei practically "rides" on his OP-ness.

Geny said:
Quote:
And even if they did see them beforehand, what would they do?

Fly around and attack from behind, because the ballista's are mounted on the bow and can't aim through their own sails.


I also though about it but:
1. We only see a few ballistae, we don't know if those aren't also mounted in the back side. Ok, that might not be the case, but I see those are place in such a way that they can shoot under them, or even through them (why not?)
2. Ships can also turn.
3. The Ballistae seem to be rotary.
4. Dany panicked.
5. I assume they had a plan for this, they specifically came to kill the dragons no?

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TSAR-IVOR
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posted May 07, 2019 02:07 PM

Not only that wtf is up with their ships, why are they heavy warships instead of swift long ships. How in crickey fk did they mass produce ships that theyve experience in building nor sailing.

And what Geny said, they cant maneouvre fast enough due to their tight formation and the rocks they hid behind. Not to mention how the fk were they not informed of a hostile fleet sitting outside?

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blob2
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posted May 07, 2019 02:11 PM
Edited by blob2 at 14:20, 07 May 2019.

Ok Guys, assuming you would debunk my each and every argument (I'm not a specialist, so I might be wrong ofc): lets take that she decides to attack the fleet, I can already imagine the hate this scene would get "blah blah plot armor, not even one projectile hit her blah blah".

Just think about it... we can already see the silliness this show is generating already with all the "medieval-military-specialist analyzes the battle in Long Night" articles.

Let's keep going:
- how can Danaerys ride a Dragon in cold winds without any protection at this speed? It would literally peel of her skin.
- what about dragon fuel, do they not tire? How can a dragon produce so much fire in one battle?
- why is Greyjoys ship even moving? Its hull is made from a metal Kraken

etc. but what is the point, I don't understand...

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