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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Is ranpart a good town to play as because I suck unless i play as tower or necropolis
Thread: Is ranpart a good town to play as because I suck unless i play as tower or necropolis This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
lews_therin
lews_therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 27, 2002 04:10 PM bonus applied.

Quote: ... facts or fictions like difficulty, size of map, type of map and what is in it. Sure, if you can't play with Fortress you think that it is weaker than other towns while you are good with Dungeon and think that is the best town and those are your personal fondnesses.

It seems to be common habit, trying to sound wise by saying that all towns were equal, and it were only a matter of playing them well.
Getting the seven unupgraded dwellings requires 24 precious resources for Fortress and 50 for Tower. Building Towerīs mage guild and library requires another 132 precious resources. I suppose itīs just my imagination that the difficulty level is relevant and often the decisive factor here.

Quote: You want a fast scout for Fortress? Then you will use Dragon Flies. You want a fast scout for Rampart? Then you use (Silver) Pegasi unless Dragon Flies are given.

You call that different strategies?? Of course if I want a fast scout, then I give him a fast creature.

Quote: As for that each town doesn't have different strategies is totally senseless. True, in adventure map they do have same purposes but even there they have different means to reach those purposes. But what really makes strategies different is battle. If you shield your shooters when you are tower with your units would you do likewise when you are playing Fortress?

Thunder, do you know the difference between strategy and tactics? What you talk about has nothing to do with strategy. Also, understanding that it often makes sense to shield a strong stack of shooters is not very town-specific.  
Quote: ... use that town's strategy to ensure your way to victory ...

There isnīt much difference between the townsī strategies, the way they expand, coordinate heroes, and aim for getting the important creature dwellings + citadel/castle on day 7. Necropolis is played a little bit differently, thatīs an exception. But tell me, what are the "different winning strategies" for Rampart, Castle, Dungeon and Tower supposed to be? Apart from the fact that the creatures that want to be upgraded first have different names.
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted March 27, 2002 06:09 PM

Fortress needs most wood of all towns, surely that normal difficulty helps them too there. Stronghold needs most ore and second most wood. So if there isn't enough wood and ore in the map and you are playing on impossible difficulty they will suffer more than other towns. Of course, map can and will affect the game and map is the foremost thing that can unbalance things. Surely Dungeon have a great benefit in the map where 7th level dwellings are next to the starting towns. As would Castle if it would have been given 10 Angels at the beginning while other towns are not.

I didn't knew the difference between tactics and strategy (not clearly at least. And they are quite related to each other and I'm not native English speaker anyway), in that case your statement that towns don't have different strategies is more true. However, players will have them.
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted March 27, 2002 06:56 PM

Thunder, part of this argument was started by me.  I feel all warm and fuzzy with the positive attention my post garnered.
With all due respect, you fence-straddlers think you know it all.  C'mon, don't give me this bullcrap line that the towns are equal.  They are extrememly unequal.  And after several years of play, the towns that are more unequal than the others are clear favorites with the better players.  
On the other hand, we have fairy-fantasizing, elf-loving, Tolkien wannabes who are busy clogging these forums with their drivel about the virtues of dendriods.  (Feel free to raise your hand Darion, Cat, Preserver, Lith, the list goes on...)
Thunder, I challenge you to refute my post in the Spirit of the Forest thread.  Rampart sucks Pikon.  If you get stuck with it, reboot and start over.  If you get stuck with it during on-line play, drop.  

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted March 27, 2002 07:41 PM

Sure, I also suggest that you view my thread of "How to tackle with Castle", and see how Rampart can win your favourite (I like Castle though).
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted March 28, 2002 01:07 AM

lets do some caomparisons without any spells with tower & rampart.
rampart LV1-centaur captains can reach the enemy with their speed 2 moves & with their streighth they can put a big hurt on a shooter wait first.
Tower LV1-Master Gremlins has terrific #'s & can put a big hurt but only do half range from far & since they are so slow Aanyone can reach them before they can do full damage.
Rampart LV2-Battle Dwarfs are not that fast but are solid & good in #'s which can defend the elves for anyone who comes near the elves will have to face the dwarfs & the elves arrows.
Tower LV2-obsidian Gargoylesgot descent spped to reach opponent 2 turns. has good #'s &can do some hurt but not as powerful they can be really big pests.
Rampart LV3-Grand Elves undeniably one of the best low lv shooters & also has good speed so they have a choice to either chance waiting for a better shot or go for a shot at the shooters.
Tower LV3-Iron Golems has great power & has that magic reduction which can suck if you have multiple hitting spells.They are good defenders & can help defend their shooters.
Rampart LV4-Silver Pegasis one of the weakest 4th lv in my opinion but has speed which lets them get first initiative most of the time & can also in mid battle can be bait so other creatures can attack same creatures with retaliation.
Tower LV4-Arch Mages can be deadly but just an average shooter which can hurt if you get too close.
Rampart LV5-Dendroid Soldiers can be very deadly they can help defend the elves like the dwarfs, anyone comes near they will make sure they wont move until they are dead or decides other wise.
Surprise your enemies by usuing expert water magic with teleport with slow but strong creatures . Just because they are slow does not mean they are weak if you can put them in good use .
Tower LV5-Master Genies One of my personal fav with their random spells can caste some great spells & if they get near he can attack if neccesary.They have good stats just their hit points suck which can have you lose some genies.
Rampart LV^-War Unicorns donr underestimate them their power & defense rock with thier hit points They can blind even the most powerfullest 7th lv creature in random if they are immune to it.Theres so many things I dont know about these beautiful creatures like I heard they have some kind of magic resistance but not sure .
Tower LV^-Naga Queensare easily one of the deadliest creatures in the game. They have the no retaliation & can put a big hurt on any creature she chooses. With her great power she will put a great deal of damage & has great hit  points.
Rampart LV7-Gold Dragons has great power & can hit two in one & since they go first you might be able to do it first turn but I would not recomend it depends on the battle dont want to lose too many of these precious creatures.They have more power then Their Cousins Black Dragons But can Only defend from lv 4 spells so they are still immune to implosion.
Tower LV7-Titans awesomely the best shooter in the game but very hard to buils them but a treat if you can & still have time in your game.They cannot be blinded or any negative status spells orless artifact syas so lol.
Titans can shoot the elves first if they want or can wait one specialty that this shooter has that no other shooter has is that if they have to do hand to hand combat they do the same damage as if shooting.Their power defense hit points is all great but they are the target so maybe caste some helpful spells to protect them yes.

Try to practice with all spells like teleport forcefield etc it can come in handy
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lews_therin
lews_therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 28, 2002 01:51 AM
Edited By: lews_therin on 27 Mar 2002

Quote: Fortress needs most wood of all towns, surely that normal difficulty helps them too there.

Thunder, compared with what amounts of precious resources any other town has to collect, Fortressī basic resource requirements are less than worth mentioning, only slightly above the average. And Sawmills + logs of wood are near the starting towns on every map, random or player made.

For obvious reasons, Fortress is very strong at 200% and very weak at 100%. It for example builds Wyvern Nest week 1 in either case. By statistics the weakest creature of its level, but at impossible, other towns often get their Golden Pavillion or Hall of Darkness not before week 3.

Quote: Stronghold needs most ore and second most wood ...

Strongholdīs problem is crystal. Getting basic resources really isnīt that difficult, not even at impossible. I like Stronghold at 200%, it usually builds Roc Nest week 1 and Behemoth Lair week 2.

Quote: As would Castle if it would have been given 10 Angels at the beginning ...

My argumentation refers to random maps, maps from the CD and quality player-made maps. There is a common denominator about how a Heroes3 map starting situation should look like.

From that other thread of yours, I see that you put a large emphasis on combat tactics; itīs true that there the towns are more different from each others. I personally find adventure map play much more complicated and important. In most games, the result of a final battle (if there is one) is already decided by what happened before.

About the initial theme of the thread, Rampart, itīs a very strong town. Very good heroes, the creatures are no weaker than Castleīs or Dungeonīs, while its buildup is much less expensive.
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andiangelsla...
andiangelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted March 31, 2002 10:17 AM

fortress aint weak on 100%, all i say is hydras...in fact i consider it strongest on random at 100
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted March 31, 2002 10:44 AM

That is true Fortress is my fav castleone of the easiest to build in the first week almost everytime on 100% I can build every creature dwelling & a castle for three hydras in the first week .
Sometimes my area may not be so week but it's quite easy to build hydra pond first week only 10 sulfers then usual 20 precious resource for most 7th lv dwelling yea.
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2002 06:15 AM

quote: fortress aint weak on 100%, all i say is hydras...in fact i consider it strongest on random at 100

All you say is Hydras? Yes, I suppose a level 7 creatureīs speed 5, attack 16 and defense 18 speak for themselves.

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mighij
mighij

Tavern Dweller
posted April 01, 2002 10:51 AM

well actually the no retalliation does that
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2002 03:11 PM

The no retaliation doesnīt change anything about Hydra being the weakest level 7 creature. If the difficulty setting is so low that the other towns can build their 7th level dwellings too, Fortress is quite pathetic. Weakest level 6, weakest level 7, and no mage guild.

Fortress becomes strong when it can build faster than other towns, and thatīs what it needs harder difficulties for.

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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2002 03:19 PM

you obviously know nothing man...if i say hydras i mean the hydra trick on 100%, topias with 5 and so know what i mean, hydras rock, of course if i only see with hit and run eyes they suck
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2002 09:11 PM

Seen with Heroes of Might and Magic eyes, they suck. Of course for people who make rules against what doesnīt suit their playing style, this might be different.

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 02, 2002 04:19 AM

Well mostly you just gotta know how to use your hydras & they are easily upgraded for a speed of seven.
Why do you think their speed is so slow because then can easily ruel .
The only hardest thing about using hydras is in a siege but on a battle field I think they are one of the deadliest creatures & your formation in battle will change.
If you have expert water which I would reckomend & teleport you can fool your enemy & try casting bless if you have a chance well see how weak the hydras really are.
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cratebeer
cratebeer

Tavern Dweller
Traveller
posted April 02, 2002 02:31 PM

Well, almost everyone has its own preferences (I'm talking about TOWNS in H3 . I like castle, my friend P.P. - Rampart (yes!) and my OTHER friend (hi R.W.) - dungeon (which in my opinion sucks... Wiec, co czlowiek to inna opinia (special summary for POLES only

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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 02, 2002 04:23 PM

Quote: Well mostly you just gotta know how to use your hydras

Aculias, after looking at our ToH statistics, I donīt think I know less about using Hydras than you. Speed 5/7 is extremely slow for a level 7 creature. The only other creature that cannot cross the battlefield/attack first turn is the Ancient Behemoth, and he compensates that to a good extend by being the strongest fighter on the battlefield. Hydra is weak by all means, low attack/defense and low damage. Even if it attacks two targets, it causes less harm than an Archangels that attacks one.

Quote: If you have expert water which I would reckomend & teleport ... bless ...

This is exactly the reason why Hydras are so weak. You NEED spells to even out their deficits. They are a tactical burden! Other level7s are not only better in combat, but also can fly over all of the battlemap, and give their player spellcasting initiative.

All that is okay, as I said before, Fortress is the discounter. Strong when players are poor by difficulty and map, and weak when they are rich from the beginning.

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hamsi128
hamsi128


Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
posted April 02, 2002 04:36 PM

when i ll play you next time i ll put a rule no rampart ...
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 03, 2002 05:37 AM

Quote:
Quote: Well mostly you just gotta know how to use your hydras

Aculias, after looking at our ToH statistics, I donīt think I know less about using Hydras than you.
Explain what you mean please if you want so I can understand what you meant by comparing our rankings?
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 04, 2002 04:33 PM

Resource requirements are just another balancing factor in this game. So far none has proven what is the best town, even though the game has been out 3 years and it seems that it will remain so. Check my profile and choose the thread that handles this subject. Including what is said in there you propably have to play it yourself (without AI) and take daily income into account when building structures. Also it demands many battles as there is many random factors in this game.

Even then it can remain in mystery as battles won't include skills and spells which are used in adventure map (like Logistics and Dimension Door), thus weakening the towns and heroes that will get them more easily.
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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 04, 2002 05:45 PM

First the original topic was is Rampart a good town to play.
it has been discussed a lot of places on this board.

In my understanding Rampart is diffucult mainly because of 1 reason. And it's not shown when you look at the creatures 1 by 1 against others of same level! Because there they fare ok.
The problem is that the creatures specials does spread out to a lot of different thing , but none of them that are that dangerous or devasting. And worst they don't work in the same direction!

Rampart have a lot of HP and some resistance bonus (dwarfs , and unicorns). This (together with pegasus magic bonus)point at a good magic town, but with golds vulnarable to 5' level spells and immume to lowers ones its not the towns strongest side when facing other magic towns!
But with a resistance special hero it can provide really troble for a magic blaster! (but this can all towns do!)

While having a good defence Hero , none of the creatures actual have abilities there becomes better in long battles (except Unicorns blinding). And if used as an all out high attack town it suffers from having 2 slow horde creatures and no damage increasing specials (exept elves second shot)!

This all together makes Rampart a jack of all trade town, having no area where it really shines!

If you take stronghold all creatures special ability translate into more damage and shorter battle! (bloddlust, 2 attacks, reducing enemy defense). To some degree thunderbolt, and wall attack counts to!

If you take fortress All special abilitys becomes stronger in a long battle , and high defense creates a longer battle. The more targets are getting to suffer for poison, weakness (and dispell), stonegaze, deathstare  the more value these effects have. And I argue that the hydras value increase also , because the longer a battle , the more situations created good for ganging up against others troops, but with hydra in game its just not a good idea)  

Aculias And Lews_Therin: While your discussion is off topic I will add my 2 cents. Trying to come in with some oppinions !

Hydra maybe falls short when put up against other 7 level creatures, but this is to show little understanding of its use and value, to evaluate it in that context.

Hydras are general used in a high defense setup (se fortress above). Hydras are in general not aimed at using against other 7 levels creatures ( why should they with Mighty cows on the team!)
Hydras often prevent enemy trop consentration, (ganging up against a single target). Hydras often are shinning against clones. (hitting both clone and original stack) hydra is wonderfull when using berserk! Fortress troops shines with Frenzy.
The value of no retaliation and multiple attack goes to a degree where fortress is properly one off the first towns to be able to take biggest utopia!

Hydras and fortress troops is often blasted away by magic heroes damaging spells. Especial if slowed first. But the bigger an army the less value does magic have compared to might. So this situation arise on maps where powerfull heros can be build faster than big stacks can be build!

But a really underestimated strength of Hydra and fortress trops in general, is it takes skill to use them. And there is a lot of nasty tricks to employ. And I say if you have the experience in using them , you don't underestimate them!

And this relates back to the talk on why rampart is not that good. There is not that many tricks to do with rampart. An unicorn there blinds, a dragons 2 hex attack, and a dendroid there binds! Thats about it, difficult to surprise an knowing opponnent with!

On this board and I have read a lot of the recommend treads recently, It seems that those disregarding Hydras (and fortress) are players with preference for Magic Heroes and blasting spells. Are this right!

With regards
Jondifool



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