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| Thread: NEW HOMM(VII) - Battles based on ancient HOMM4 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Luiscarlosapeu
Hired Hero
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posted August 02, 2013 10:21 PM |
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SOLUTION??
All this is very easy to be solved . The lack of solidity between Heróis_VS_Criaturas due to lack of competence, or even more careful study to the subject of the powers / strength (HP) . So , more closely with more insight, and good will of the creators ,with innovative gameplay ! With a play structure with improved performance of the forces of each unit.
PROOF POSSIBLE :
I even ... i'm proof through the Map Editor for balance of forces, from the beginning to the end of camapanha .
Personal Maps produced in H4. Created a right balance . Despite a high level of ATTACK and DEFENSE heroes, creatures were not vulnerable, there was no big difference in the superiority between these two beings . There was only one HIERARCHY OF CAPABILITIES ! no excess power or supremacy to anyone!
Even if HEROES ARE TARGET HOME BATTLE ... as a way to disrupt an army! was not easy to die a hero, but this also did not have the power to end it all to come ahead! elaborated only one unit less destructible that could become stronger or supreme depending on your campaign for map! Gaining wealth and developing a little more armies with creatures ... the player makes his group further equaled or even more powerful than certain heroes .
Variables created yet. existed heroes with good ATTACK - DEFENSE little, others too DEFENSE - but ineffective in ATTACK. Scripts ... distributed by the map that provides some heroes , right "opportunity" to become a "SUPER-HERO" (bonus + ATK + DEF), other scripts ,provides a greater amount of creatures to the army and vice versa !
___________________ Reflections : ________________________
Walking with the figure of the hero, the field of adventure in search of conquests . it has always existed, pure essence of Homm . in all your series of the saga! But the hero figure features a very static , commonplace, inanimate , on the struggles offers no resistance or desbravecer body, as any existing physical drive of his army. if the hero is in the group. because it is a hidden element?? lifeless?? directly without defending his own guard ??
Get stuck at a point of the battlefield. only have the effect of an attack "animation", no strikes no considerable damage to the opponents . highly misleading attack, illusory, waste of time, boredom , remains intact because, interesting that there is this. to be a unit without any threat ?? although there within the field of adventure and armies!
In Homm's (01-03, 05-06). the hero is just your army with attributes Moral. Offensive and defensive units for the benefit of the group. is the essence of the game, but it is a concept very common . if it exists as part of the group. because they do not possess personal attributes?? own like any other creature in the game??
So far I have not received consistent justifications. not to be heroes in the struggle ... I await a good excuse ... or are consistent with the idea?? Left to sell by critics HOMM4 ... but sought to make the best purchases ideas applied ...
I THINK THE BIG GOAL FOR UBISOFT IS TO FIND THE FORMULA TO GIVE "LIFE" TO THE HEROES IN THE GAME ... CONSEQUENCES WITHOUT CAUSING THE STRUCTURE OF GAMEPLAY.
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted August 13, 2013 06:40 AM |
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They could just make it so that you can choose whether a hero enters into the fight or commands from behind the troops.
It'll be a trade off. Having a combat hero will give you an advantage in the short term since the hero can be a powerful unit but having a command hero will give you an advantage in the long term since their skills would scale better with larger armies.
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ronmar
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 16, 2013 01:56 PM |
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Elvin said:
I don't like heroes within the battlefield for numerous balance reasons. For one, there is no way to scale hero strength with army strength that can range from a few peasants to 125+ weeks of army. None that sounds remotely realistic but even if that were the case the hero would be overpowered against neutrals. Secondly, that would also mean armies that can travel on the battlefield without a hero - otherwise they'd scatter if you lost your hero but won the battle. The former would introduce micromanagement, the latter would simply suck. Then there are other considerations.. What would happen if one hero puppeted the other? Would he be able to cast the other hero's spells too? Would his warmachine or other skills start working for you perhaps? Or what if he died? Would his army suddenly lose ALL kinds of skills? There are so many ways this can go wrong..
yea!!!!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2013 02:08 PM |
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Useless discussion.
IMO, HoMM 4 is a great game that somehow managed to make the impossible actually playable: single heroes and unit stacks in one army.
However, Heroes on the BF works only when you have single creatures as well, like in AoW and disciples. Once it gets stack-based it doesn't make sense.
I also don't want to buy IMMORTALITY POTIONS to resurrect my great heroes, thanks.
If anyone thinks it makes sense to have a hero that single-handedly takes on a couple of Black Dragons - we are neither talking X-Men here or "Heroes, the TV show".
There are enough games that let you play heroes and fight with them on a BF.
Another reason is that the more Heroes you have the less creatures you need...
Bottom line. Dead and buried feature.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 19, 2013 01:39 PM |
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I admit that I am very much against the principle, but with some tweaking, it might work.
JollyJoker said:
However, Heroes on the BF works only when you have single creatures as well, like in AoW and disciples. Once it gets stack-based it doesn't make sense.
This is true. Stacks of creatures should be able to quickly overpower and subdue a Hero. The Hero's power should correspond to his level. At level 1, he's able to handle a few level 1 critters on his own, at level 30 (max level), he should be able to stand toe to toe with a few max tier critters.
Hero skills, spells and abilities on the battlefield should be split between Leadership skills and Battle skills, where the former is aimed at directing troops on the battlefield, while the latter is aimed at personal performance. While acting as a Leader, they can't be fielded on the battlefield, but while acting as a unit on the battlefield, they can't lead their troops (as effectively). There's a tradeoff, but the focus should of course be on Leadership skills.
Depending on army size, the Hero may be forced onto the battlefield (too few creatures remaining on his side, with respect to the enemy), or be impossible to enter (army too large). Thresholds depending on balancing tests.
An army on the Campaign map should have 8 slots, one of which is always a Leader (Hero) and another one which is at least a Creature. The other 6 slots can be either a Hero or a Creature.
Quote:
I also don't want to buy IMMORTALITY POTIONS to resurrect my great heroes, thanks.
Tweak: give the Hero some combat stats, including Hitpoints. If a Hero and his army get defeated, it's the same as is currently ingame: you can resurrect him at the tavern. If a Hero and his army wins, it's the same as it is now, too. If the Hero gets defeated and his army wins, he's simply considered "incapacitated" and gradually recovers over the course of some ingame days, restoring hitpoints each day (akin to how mana points are regenerated). Should a Hero win the battle, but lose ALL creatures in his army, well ... have him appear on the Campaign Map with a base level 1 critter from the corresponding faction.
No immortality potions needed.
Quote:
If anyone thinks it makes sense to have a hero that single-handedly takes on a couple of Black Dragons - we are neither talking X-Men here or "Heroes, the TV show".
Why wouldn't a level 30 Hero be able to handle a few Black Dragons? Don't those levels account for something?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 19, 2013 02:43 PM |
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Oh, Christ, what do you think why killing ONE dragon is considered such a big deal in legends and old fairy tales and so on?
Because beating ONE in sibgle combat is difficult enough, even for a big hero.
Odysseus always beat THE [monster of choice], but not a dozen of them.
That's why an epic hero can fight against ONE epic monster and survive, but more are just nonsense.
The question would be, why apply a feature that makes no sense with the actual game set-up of a hero leading what amounts to ARMIES, divided in something like DIVISIONS: the hero simply CANNOT replace a division, and it wouldn't make sense to try it, tweaking or not.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 20, 2013 10:29 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:30, 20 Aug 2013.
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JollyJoker said:
Oh, Christ, what do you think why killing ONE dragon is considered such a big deal in legends and old fairy tales and so on?
Because beating ONE in sibgle combat is difficult enough, even for a big hero.
Odysseus always beat THE [monster of choice], but not a dozen of them.
The point is, that in fairy tales and legends, the monster in question is singular. There's not a whole nest of Dragons that the hero is facing. In Heroes, the final tier is usually not singularly present and grows each week. That's why. If the ancient Greek story about Odysseus featured a Cyclops den where he faced a dozen Cyclopses, or a dozen of whatever he had to defeat, then he would have defeated those dozen creatures just as easily as the singular one. But that's not the way the story was told.
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Luiscarlosapeu
Hired Hero
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posted August 20, 2013 04:53 PM |
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- IN SHORT ...
I will make a post with a great proposal ... balancing the desires of each!
Well put MAURICE and VICHERON...
Why not a game that uses the two possibilities??
It's impossible? NO!
?Unnecessary? I think not, because it is interesting for a good portion of players ... seeking always differential and innovation.. higher projections ... more diversity ...!
For those unaware, the official forum of the producer, vericando in Ubi ...
There are many people who would like apioando and the return of this feature (well implemented of course) ... And I will not lie, I do not see many are against ... Actually ... tastes are well dividios (50% ~for each)
Needed to reap the return incentiver this feature implemented only in H4, but was unsuccessful in its programming...
Jolly joker...
Respect all opinions, including yours and others that are unfavorable!!
We can create a way for all ...
But the fact is ... respecting his decision ...
Their positions are not decisive reasons not to contain, continue to fall in the same hole ... LACK OF BALANCE AND GOOD GAME SCHEDULE!! Amounts of Dragons Vs Heroes.. Relate to X-Men ... or series ... is childishness on your part .. and say that there are other games with heroes battling .. would be to say that we are bothered and we play other types of games ... justifications are not correct.
YOU JUST KEEPS PUTTING YOUR LACK OF INTEREST ... IN REMOVING THE HERO WITH CAMBATE CREATURES!
If the argument fo incompetence Ubisoft to implement the feature ... I even agree with you!
JUST A MOMENT. . .
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 20, 2013 05:10 PM |
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No.
The reason why I'm against it is that you cannot have everything in one game, because it makes no sense.
There are games with heroes on the battlefield - a lot actually -, and there are games without, and since in HoMM the Heroes are LEADERS OF BIG ARMIES, it makes sense that they DIRECT combat and do NOT fight themselves.
If you want more action with the Heroes themselves - play another game.
That simple.
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Luiscarlosapeu
Hired Hero
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posted August 20, 2013 05:45 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
No.
The reason why I'm against it is that you cannot have everything in one game, because it makes no sense.
There are games with heroes on the battlefield - a lot actually -, and there are games without, and since in HoMM the Heroes are LEADERS OF BIG ARMIES, it makes sense that they DIRECT combat and do NOT fight themselves.
If you want more action with the Heroes themselves - play another game.
That simple.
My noble friend,
you're absolutely right,
I agree with your opinion regarding the style of the game!
If we rewind ... older versions work with the commander of the map and the pursuit of wealth and development troop ... and these constitute the arsenal ... defense - attack! against enemies!
But do you think it would be unfeasible to balance levels between beings ... and increase the dynamic game with heroes fighting also?? delocando up on the board ... defending and attacking the enemies of truth ...
Could fail to play Homm ... For me this function is extremely interesting and necessary ...
but NOT LEAVE TO PLAY Homm , because its gameplay is unique!
do not invite me to other ...
seek the best for Homm. Be a differential game even more and not equal!!!
... And I think the main idea is: You can have it all in one game,
NOT TRUE?
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted August 20, 2013 06:52 PM |
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I am for Heroes fighting on the battleground, but not exactly like in HeroesIV, rather joining a Stack. And when the Stack is defeated the Heroes must run away and join another Stack asap, maybe spending his and the Stack whole turn.
But I think this discussion is useless because Ubi will certainly keep the HeroesIII model.
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TWITCH|YouTube | NewArenas2023 MOD
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Luiscarlosapeu
Hired Hero
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posted August 20, 2013 08:38 PM |
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Zenithale said:
I am for Heroes fighting on the battleground, but not exactly like in HeroesIV, rather joining a Stack. And when the Stack is defeated the Heroes must run away and join another Stack asap, maybe spending his and the Stack whole turn.
But I think this discussion is useless because Ubi will certainly keep the HeroesIII model.
Pondering his point of view:
If the creatures are defeated,
I see no need to escape at all costs ...
Course, depends on your campaign, the level of your hero and etc ...
If your hero is strong suficente to clear the map in search of more riches ... Maybe get new criatuaras to ally ... rebuild his army ... or returns to the castle to get reinforcements ... etc. .. etc. ..
This is our reality my noble friend,
Ubisoft cares little to correct the mistakes of screens Heroes VI ... today! Much less will not care about a feature that many criticize and judge, to complete ... for the simple reason HoMM 4 was not well done ...
It really is a difficult situation for those who wait, because Ubisoft need much power to remake this feature, more perfected than H4.
I am saddened by those assessing the situation of the hero in the fight to be bad, for not having been successful in H4!
Soon .. soon ...
I will make a post related to this issue, considering possibilities for two modes! In order to be successful for everyone.
If one day Ubi ... or other podutor deploy this mode, will be amazing. . .
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JohnTravolts
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 23, 2013 09:44 PM |
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Luís Carlos Apéu, the Great!
Greetings my friend, great post!!
Return the heroes to battles is a dream of all of us,
There are more advantages over the disadvantages! Totally bad the hero get stuck and isolated in battles! He should be a component excited rather than inanimate!
congratulationsss 
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Quique30
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 27, 2013 06:56 PM |
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I'm not against it, per se. But I'm curious to see what you propose as a solution for the balance problem it creates.
Like others have said, the stack vs single unit models, is a core issue.
When you have, on one side, stacks of units that can go from 1 unit to an unlimited number and, on the other side, a hero unit: How do you keep the hero's power relative to the strengh of the unit stacks so that it remains a relevant force on the battlefield?
I found this problem in HoMM IV and you had heroes that where wimps at the start of the game, but would grow to the point where they could stomp against anything in their paths in later stages. It was boring and repetitive.
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2013 07:04 PM |
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Quique30 said:
I found this problem in HoMM IV and you had heroes that where wimps at the start of the game, but would grow to the point where they could stomp against anything in their paths in later stages. It was boring and repetitive.
For me is normal that when you play a game like "heroes" when you take levels with him that he become stronger and stronger and for a hero with level 30 or +++ who have fought many battles and gained lot of experience is totally normal to destroy a stack of black dragons, titans or what you want....
And please men stop to say words like "a hero should not win against more than one dragon because is a human..." this his non sense we talk about Heroes might and magic you know heroes can cast implosion, armageddon.....
finally you say it was boring and repetitive, for me it was exactly the opposite i found that very fun and there was a sense to that because i had gathered many bigs artefacts with my hero and i have done lot of battles before to reach a big level for destroying everything in the map ( i talk about neutrals of course).
And don't forget is just a game...
For me in term of replayibility Heroes 4 was (with H3) the best thanks to the forced choice for the creature.
i tried lot of army variation (unicorn or griffon/ Hydre or black dragon...) but also with one or two heroes on the battlefield you can varied even more your strategies.
i know there was many defaults in heroes 4 but the innovations were more impressive for me than the defaults lot of people describe.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 02, 2013 06:31 AM |
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I'm divided, the gameplay style of Heroes makes it a difficult feature to get right, but OTOH, it will add strategic depth, for example at the Battle of Issus, Alexander led his cavalry personally, and beat Darius III. Then of course you get the argument of one hero, or many? Of course I've always been a bit touchy about heroes (the gameplay element, not the series), because an awful lot of stuff gets thrown out, stuff like inherent skills and unit experience, or to put it another way, Alexander died aged 32 as undisputedly one of the greatest generals (in terms of skill) who ever lived, while in the 19th Century, Austria was something of a punching bag for Napoleon, despite theoretically being quite powerful.
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luiscarlosapeu
Hired Hero
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posted September 16, 2013 01:28 AM |
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BY SOME USERS, THERE ARE MANY CONSERVATIVES TO THIS MOMENT ...
DISINTEREST DEMONSTRATE IN ADDING VALUE TO GAME . NOT LOOKING FOR IMPROVEMENTS Homm , A GAME MORE RICH, FULL AND DIFFERENTIAL.
* SEARCH: MORE ALTERNATIVE & GREATEST CHALLENGES *
The concept of the game will never be broken with the introduction of this function, or the essence of the game: Target Hosts, Multiply creatures, Insert battle commands and search for accomplishments. Are very insignificant, considering The existence of "mini-RPG" - (Evolution heroes), arrive in the condition, devaluing the main features of Homm??
key features ... always exists in Homm. do not have much value?
OBS. -> No use to create difficulties for the feature, (Balance Hero-x-Creature), because we got enough conclusions, On the possibility of working together.
But acretido who dislike NEW CHALLENGES. Prefer to limit the repetitive series of army building, only !!!
You do not want to give a special touch to the game, may be incompetent enough to not be able to develop Heroes and Creatures at the same time as creatures only grow, it is a concept for the very limited Interests of users of modern gaming. Homm is not a special game because it only develop their homeland before the opponents ... Is not only based game: More features, less time ...
We can still create new possibilities, rather nice!!! Only you do not see that Homm has a good game idea, but remains with the same values of the past, Without innovations in gameplay and storyline. Do not realize that Homm lost his POPULARITY. With each passing year We are surprised by the decrease of the lack of new players and game dynamics. And amazingly, even with all the technology and graphics provided by UBISOFT.
HoMM will never evolve ... If the heroes remain only as symbolic figures. The new generation of users, Not migrate to Homm ... if the game remains the same characteristics of the first release of the series.
ANOTHER INNOVATION: Besides the inclusion of heroes in battle, I also think the idea of creating scales with levels of construction for buildings Secondary (buildings distributed around the map). Over time, you can develop your building to Better performance of its production, in contrast, there will be a cost to evolve their housing.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 16, 2013 09:58 AM |
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Hm, how about a dual system, where the hero can fight alone (boosted by whatever artefacts they're carrying), or with a stack (artefacts have no effect, but the stack is boosted by the hero's own powers of attack, defence, etc.)? Of course, this would mean that the hero would no longer provide the army wide boost he does at the moment, although I think that could be solved by splitting at least the primary skills into 'hero skill level' which is how high his attack and defence are when fighting singly, 'stack skill level' which is how much he boosts any stack he fights with, and 'army skill level' which is how much of a boost he provides to the army as a whole, with each boost being progressively smaller.
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JohnTravolts
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 20, 2013 01:20 PM |
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MattII said:
Hm, how about a dual system, where the hero can fight alone (boosted by whatever artefacts they're carrying), or with a stack (artefacts have no effect, but the stack is boosted by the hero's own powers of attack, defence, etc.)? Of course, this would mean that the hero would no longer provide the army wide boost he does at the moment, although I think that could be solved by splitting at least the primary skills into 'hero skill level' which is how high his attack and defence are when fighting singly, 'stack skill level' which is how much he boosts any stack he fights with, and 'army skill level' which is how much of a boost he provides to the army as a whole, with each boost being progressively smaller.
A bit confused my friend, in fact, luis carlos Apeú knows very well what he is talking about the possibility of creating these two forces within the game! Because there are difficulties?
It 's obvious that armies can be related to the heroes.
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