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| Thread: Does progress really exist? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · NEXT» |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 12:26 AM |
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Does progress really exist?
The sub-debate we had the other day about the comparison of 20th century fascism to classical ages inspired me to open this thread.
Do you think civilization is actually "getting somewhere" or do you think, when it comes down to it, we are still as selfish and egocentric as our ancestors? Can the adventure of mankind be described as progress and if so, is it basically linear or do we have our ups and downs? Are we having the same wars over and over again with just better technology, or are we developing an empathy towards "other" nations and cultures as we develop new communication and transportation devices?
Do you think we are happier, will future generations be happier? Or is it a big, misdirected shot and do we feel more alienated each passing century in this planet of ours? Would you like to live in the past, in some allegedly golden age or do you think nostalgia is an illusion?
Do we have more say in the way we're governed or is the system just a big joke which reproduces the same old issues with a shiny package? Did the rules of the game change?
Is history repetition or progress? Or is it something in the middle?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 12:50 AM |
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There are some fluctuations here and there, but on the whole, life is improving. There's less sexism and racism than there was in the past, people are wealthier, are living longer and healthier lives - so yes, there is progress. In the old days, women had a much higher likelihood of dying in childbirth, young children died all the time, there wasn't as much food as there is now, knowledge of medicine was limited, most people performed backbreaking labor all day (there weren't many comfortable middle class office jobs), and so on. If the quality of human life is the standard by which progress is measured, there has undoubtedly been a lot of progress. Future generations will be happier still. They'll look back at our time and think "How could they live in such terrible conditions?"
Of course, all this progress doesn't guarantee happiness. But it makes it much easier to attain.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 12:53 AM |
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We are more comfortable, there's no doubt about that.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 19, 2013 01:01 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 01:09, 19 Jul 2013.
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artu said:
The sub-debate we had the other day about the comparison of 20th century fascism to classical ages inspired me to open this thread.
Quote:
Do you think civilization is actually "getting somewhere" or do you think, when it comes down to it, we are still as selfish and egocentric as our ancestors?
Nope, its not getting somewhere. Sure, morals and taboos have changed but when you look at the picture, corruption is still an issue as ever and the only thing that changed is technology.
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Can the adventure of mankind be described as progress and if so, is it basically linear or do we have our ups and downs?
Nope, the only progress is technology and the shifting of some morals.
50 or 100 years ago, equal rights for women might have been taboo, now its getting more and more acceptable but not in every place on earth. Some countries are still patriarchal.
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Are we having the same wars over and over again with just better technology, or are we developing an empathy towards "other" nations and cultures as we develop new communication and transportation devices?
Nope, no empathy. We shutdown empathy when it comes to war and business but the cruel reality of war does haunt some soldiers and people.
Technology has only enabled us to hear,or see something from a far away place, technology has also made war "Cleaner" and more efficient.
Slashing people with swrods was inefficient and messy. Now smartbombs, self propelled artillery and drones do the messy stuff. When none of the is aviable, many soldiers sufffer from PTSD.
Communication and transportation have not changed anything about human empathy and some might argue, they have made it harder to feel empathetic.
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Do you think we are happier, will future generations be happier?
Happier? Heck no. With information and demand, comes depression and hoplessness. Facebook used to be for me a big burden because I envied others. Knowing that somebody else is better than me in a way I never was, hurt me.
You know, seeing all the nice and glittery stuff some rich guy has, a video about a beautiful city and so on are things that can make you depressed when you compare yourself with that rich guy, or the place you live with downtown Paris or Bordeux.
Facebook is not the only vector of problems that information brings. Information and the internet deny people the excuse of not knowing stuff. Simply being unknowing is a disadvantage. I dont see this as fair because not caring about something simply does not cut it anymore,
Also, more information means more to remember, more bad news, more bad stuff and that leads to negative thoguhts and depression.
The future will be even worse because even more people will be around, even more competition, misery, crime, warfare and if scientists cannot continue the trend of doubleing computer performance every 1.5 years, its good night for all those cybernetic scifi stuff.
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Or is it a big, misdirected shot and do we feel more alienated each passing century in this planet of ours?
Not alienated. We are killing our own food.´Humanity is turning into a parasitoid species for our planet, except that in the end it will kill it self and not the planet because a planet is not alive.
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Would you like to live in the past, in some allegedly golden age or do you think nostalgia is an illusion?
I would much rather live in the 50s in the US because of my delusions that in that time, living was easier. I dont know though.
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Do we have more say in the way we're governed or is the system just a big joke which reproduces the same old issues with a shiny package? Did the rules of the game change?
People dont have anything to say, but the rules of the goverment are more sophisticated because people have more demands now. Simply giving them something to eat is not going to make everybody happy. Its a service based world but the hiearchical structure is still the same.
The guys at the top have to be alot more careful in developed contries, in 3rd world countries its the same as in the past.
Bunch of cronies and nepotists rule over the meek.
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Is history repetition or progress? Or is it something in the middle?
Read history and will know the future. Its the same thing over and over and over again until humanity dies.
Our planet has not got much more to live anyway, 500 million years is not alot.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 01:08 AM |
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Our planet has not got much more to live anyway, 500 million years is not a lot.
The way things are advancing, it's enough time for us to move somewhere else.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 19, 2013 01:10 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 01:25, 19 Jul 2013.
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artu said:
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Our planet has not got much more to live anyway, 500 million years is not a lot.
The way things are advancing, it's enough time for us to move somewhere else.
Will We Ever Visit Other Stars?
Or if you dont want to watch it. Its improbable that we will ever reach other planets.
But I am a pessimist when it comes to humanity so dont take my word for it.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 01:25 AM |
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Interesting video, I am not exactly an optimist about space travel either but 500 million years is still a lot of time to call anything improbable.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 01:38 AM |
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You know, seeing all the nice and glittery stuff some rich guy has, a video about a beautiful city and so on are things that can make you depressed when you compare yourself with that rich guy, or the place you live with downtown Paris or Bordeux.
So don't compare yourself to him. He has what he wants, and that's his own business. I'm sure he has his own problems, too. If that's difficult for you, you may have envy issues and it may be a good idea for you to seek counseling. As for Facebook, if you don't want to see what people are posting, unfriend them, or don't use Facebook at all. It's not like anyone is holding a gun to your head and making you check it. Personally, I find Facebook to be a useful tool for staying in touch with faraway friends and reading interesting articles my friends post.
More generally, here is some advice on how to have things correctly.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 02:00 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 02:16, 19 Jul 2013.
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artu said:
Do you think civilization is actually "getting somewhere" or do you think, when it comes down to it, we are still as selfish and egocentric as our ancestors?
is there a destination?
why do we always hear about how humanity is so selfish? some people are, and seek to dominate others and possess everything, and others are generous and compassionate and will share and help others.
those people who want to dominate will seek the power and some of them will get it (that's the result of our "democratic" system) and then set their own rules, imposing what is normal to them, that is to say, selfishness and egocentrism. that would make humanity selfishness a consequence, and not the cause of the problems, as we often hear.
artu said:
Are we having the same wars over and over again with just better technology, or are we developing an empathy towards "other" nations and cultures as we develop new communication and transportation devices?
it seems to depend on the information you get. if you constantly hear that such culture is monstruous, you are likely to believe it, same if you constantly hear it is very virtuous. and being able to actually get in contact let you get closer to the truth.
artu said:
Do you think we are happier, will future generations be happier?
how am I supposed to know? we already rely on medicines to not feel unhappy, should we call it happiness??
artu said:
Or is it a big, misdirected shot and do we feel more alienated each passing century in this planet of ours?
I don't know if we feel more alienated, but alienation is clearly the norm, that's the way it works right now.
artu said:
Would you like to live in the past, in some allegedly golden age or do you think nostalgia is an illusion?
I think we have the required technology to enable everyone to live decently, that is, if we don't use it to build bombs and spying systems...
artu said:
Do we have more say in the way we're governed or is the system just a big joke which reproduces the same old issues with a shiny package? Did the rules of the game change?
people dominating others, others trying to take their place and others just wanting to be free. no fundamental change it seems.
artu said:
Is history repetition or progress? Or is it something in the middle?
I would say both, you can achieve some progress, and then comes someone jealous, who wages war against you for example and destroy all that you achieved.
negative guy said:
Facebook is not the only vector of problems that information brings. Information and the internet deny people the excuse of not knowing stuff. Simply being unknowing is a disadvantage. I dont see this as fair because not caring about something simply does not cut it anymore,
Also, more information means more to remember, more bad news, more bad stuff and that leads to negative thoguhts and depression.
The future will be even worse because even more people will be around, even more competition, misery, crime, warfare and if scientists cannot continue the trend of doubleing computer performance every 1.5 years, its good night for all those cybernetic scifi stuff.
I think we need to have people who are better informed and who care. I think the current problems are due for a big part to the fact that people don't have the good information that would allow them to identify problems and solve them. I'm also not sure many of them actually care.
oh and I actually get most of my information from Facebook. well more exactly links posted on Facebook.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 19, 2013 02:36 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 02:37, 19 Jul 2013.
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mvassilev] said:
So don't compare yourself to him. He has what he wants, and that's his own business. I'm sure he has his own problems, too. If that's difficult for you, you may have envy issues and it may be a good idea for you to seek counseling. As for Facebook, if you don't want to see what people are posting, unfriend them, or don't use Facebook at all. It's not like anyone is holding a gun to your head and making you check it. Personally, I find Facebook to be a useful tool for staying in touch with faraway friends and reading interesting articles my friends post.
I dont posses a reak facebook profile anymore. Not using facebook really made me happier and use Google+ for the news stuff. Lots of public people sharing interesting stuff.
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More generally, here is some advice on how to have things correctly.
Thats a great read there I had.
Not to stray to offtopic.
@artu
Facebook and other social media are also prone to cyberbalkanization, or splintering. Its typical sing of human beings to create walls and barriers because other world views are too much to bear.
I think thats proof enough that even with new technology such as the internet, people create barriers. Chinese great(Anti-West) firewall, Pakistani Truth is too much to bear firewall and so on. Yes I ridicule them because creating giant state firewalls is not how the internet was meant or concieved to be used.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted July 19, 2013 07:49 AM |
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artu said:
Do you think civilization is actually "getting somewhere" or do you think, when it comes down to it, we are still as selfish and egocentric as our ancestors?
I would say that the "consumer civilisation" as we know it now with the ever increasing difference between rich and poor and all it's problems will come to an end.
I think something better will emerge and I see the new movements/events/changes to have the starting influence for a global transforming to a better society,based on values,which help people.
artu said:
Can the adventure of mankind be described as progress and if so, is it basically linear or do we have our ups and downs? Are we having the same wars over and over again with just better technology, or are we developing an empathy towards "other" nations and cultures as we develop new communication and transportation devices?
I think empathy is one of the values the later society will be based on.And for me the global communication and transportation will surely be a significant support for the big change.
artu said:
Do you think we are happier, will future generations be happier? Or is it a big, misdirected shot and do we feel more alienated each passing century in this planet of ours?
More alienated now,resulting in the inevitable end of this kind of society as many civilizations on earth died in the same way before.
The future generations will gather experience from majority of our failiers and will be happier,because of knowing how to prevent them.
artu said:
Do we have more say in the way we're governed or is the system just a big joke which reproduces the same old issues with a shiny package? Did the rules of the game change?
Thank you,artu,for mentioning the system.
For example:
The issue of physical slavery was overcomes in the 19th sentury.
But now we have many sophisticated forms of debt and economic slavery,which happens to be more dangerous from the physical form,because of the ways they treat you when unable to give back the money.And make no mistake,the rules are made to be helpful for the rich,now for others.
artu said:
Is history repetition or progress? Or is it something in the middle?
We can explore many aspects of it and see clearly the repetition part of it,but we can also see changes we haven't seen before.
Something in the middle I think.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 08:41 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:06, 19 Jul 2013.
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Fauch said:
artu said:
Do you think civilization is actually "getting somewhere" or do you think, when it comes down to it, we are still as selfish and egocentric as our ancestors?
is there a destination?
I didn't mean to indicate we are predestined to something specific but the very idea of progress means we are getting somewhere better, wherever that may be.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 19, 2013 09:04 AM |
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I don't think we're going in the right direction now, globalisation and all. So progress is not always good. But every era has its advantages and disatvanges. And some will always have a romantic view of the past or say "In the future we will do this and that". I think we should concentrate on improving ourselves first and then the world around us.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 09:10 AM |
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Since my basic interpretation of history is a based on the Marxist view, in my opinion "progress of civilization" is based on material circumstances. Civilization has indeed made some progress - but more or less only within the last generations.
The reason is that we've made progress in our control of things that determine the material quality of our life. We have the means available to live longer and more stable and secure with a view on the basic necessities of life, and where those means are employed, progress is made.
Based on that - and ONLY based on that - we've come a short way to real social progress, at least in some parts of the world: a hundred years ago the world was a lot bleaker than now.
The life span of a human is too small to really assess what is happening with a view on what direction things are taking. 75 years ago a lot of people would have been QUITE pessimistic about it, and with good reason, and while things seemed to go down the drain rapidly, things took a turn eventually.
I do not think, though, that we are "happier", since happiness is a) subjective and b) relative. Even a slave can be happy.
Nostalgia is an illusion, though.
The thing to keep in mind is, that "paradise" is not something to long for, at least not in the material lifetime of humans. If our life is too easy, we will degenerate. Humans (beings) who do not use their brain or brawn, lose their skills, slowly, but inevitably, so what we need as a race is a constant challenge. Contentedness may be a nice feeling, but only for a time, after that it gets boring.
So in the end the way is at least as important as the goal. We need those, and if we are on the brink of reaching them we need new ones.
If we disregard the regional differences in the actual level of progress and assume that the stragglers will follow, we face the basic problem that further "progress" depends on further material well-being. The more we will be technologically able to satisfy the material needs of providing health, a long life and material security, the more will people relax socially.
Governmental decisions are still in the hands of very few ... families. It would be silly to assume that the REALLY wealthy leave things for the ignorant masses to decide, so I would assume that money VIRTUALLY rules the world - with and by their paid puppets. The government has an administrative job in this age of democracy, and its real task is to avoid a class struggle and social disorder by making sure that everyone has to lose Something while at the same time allowing the rich to play their games and get even richer.
If that sounds cynical - heck, no. Since the playing field has never been level, at this stage it's probably as good as it gets. After all, the wealthier people are the more they can afford a conscience. 
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 10:17 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Since my basic interpretation of history is a based on the Marxist view, in my opinion "progress of civilization" is based on material circumstances. Civilization has indeed made some progress - but more or less only within the last generations.
The reason is that we've made progress in our control of things that determine the material quality of our life. We have the means available to live longer and more stable and secure with a view on the basic necessities of life, and where those means are employed, progress is made.
Based on that - and ONLY based on that - we've come a short way to real social progress, at least in some parts of the world: a hundred years ago the world was a lot bleaker than now.
The life span of a human is too small to really assess what is happening with a view on what direction things are taking. 75 years ago a lot of people would have been QUITE pessimistic about it, and with good reason, and while things seemed to go down the drain rapidly, things took a turn eventually.
I do not think, though, that we are "happier", since happiness is a) subjective and b) relative. Even a slave can be happy.
Nostalgia is an illusion, though.
The thing to keep in mind is, that "paradise" is not something to long for, at least not in the material lifetime of humans. If our life is too easy, we will degenerate. Humans (beings) who do not use their brain or brawn, lose their skills, slowly, but inevitably, so what we need as a race is a constant challenge. Contentedness may be a nice feeling, but only for a time, after that it gets boring.
So in the end the way is at least as important as the goal. We need those, and if we are on the brink of reaching them we need new ones.
If we disregard the regional differences in the actual level of progress and assume that the stragglers will follow, we face the basic problem that further "progress" depends on further material well-being. The more we will be technologically able to satisfy the material needs of providing health, a long life and material security, the more will people relax socially.
Governmental decisions are still in the hands of very few ... families. It would be silly to assume that the REALLY wealthy leave things for the ignorant masses to decide, so I would assume that money VIRTUALLY rules the world - with and by their paid puppets. The government has an administrative job in this age of democracy, and its real task is to avoid a class struggle and social disorder by making sure that everyone has to lose Something while at the same time allowing the rich to play their games and get even richer.
If that sounds cynical - heck, no. Since the playing field has never been level, at this stage it's probably as good as it gets. After all, the wealthier people are the more they can afford a conscience.
this all sounds familiar.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 19, 2013 12:08 PM |
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Agree JJ. Paradise, is after all, mythical and allegorical, not something that would be good for humans, because we need challenges and hardships to overcome so we can grow and be truly happy.
Nostalgia is fun if you don't make an obsession out of it. I clearly remember that when I was 3 I wasn't happy with my toys and I wanted other toys. Now I look back and see that my toys were pretty cool as they were.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 01:20 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:22, 19 Jul 2013.
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JJ said:
The government has an administrative job in this age of democracy, and its real task is to avoid a class struggle and social disorder by making sure that everyone has to lose Something while at the same time allowing the rich to play their games and get even richer.
What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean by making sure everyone has something to lose?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 19, 2013 01:22 PM |
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I think I know what JJ means but I won't jump to conclusions.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 02:40 PM |
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Hardships aren't good for humanity. Even in an incredibly wealthy future, people will desire things they don't have, and will have to strive to a certain extent to obtain them (unless we live like gods in a virtual world), but I don't think that counts as "hardship". Actual hardship - you will suffer if you don't solve this problem - may come up in the distant future from time to time, but it will be rarer than it is now, and that's a good thing. Ideally, it wouldn't exist at all, and I believe that someday such a paradise will be possible. Would it lead to a deterioration of skills? To a certain extent, yes, but that's not a bad thing. Skills aren't intrinsically good, they can only be good because they help you attain something you want. People in the past would say that our skills have deteriorated - few know how to make a fire, ride a horse, what wild mushrooms are good to eat. So what? We don't need those skills anymore. Most people no longer need them to accomplish their goals. If we don't need any skills at all in the future, even better. Also, keep in mind that it's likely that in the future, people will be genetically modified to be more intelligent, so learning skills would be easier for them should they need to.
The whole "hardship is necessary" attitude sounds like nothing more than a coping mechanism. It's the secular equivalent of "suffering is part of God's plan".
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Eccentric Opinion
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 19, 2013 02:52 PM |
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Imagine I had unlimited ice-cream, nothing but ice-cream at every meal, every day. After some days I will grow sick of it.
Now, if I had to buy a cone every now and then I would enjoy it much more.
By hardships I don't mean exactly war, famine and plague, more like those smaller things you stumble upon in life.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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