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| Thread: Lubomir's upgrade balancing patch |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 23, 2013 02:13 PM |
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flonembourg said:
Yes i agree, in this case the balance would be to lower the cost of buildings.
In other part if tou take a look at the others towns there is every time a useless creature Horned demon/peasant/walking dead/gargoyle/minotaur/blade dancers (not sure).
When you say permanent urgash call for demons, you mean for all creatures? or for only horned demon?(and upgrades of course).
Only for demons (tier 2) - all of them upgraded and non upgraded. They just need the boost.
As well as for the peasants I think they are good as they are, archers do all the grind so peasant just protect them.
Frankly, I rarely play with heaven as I consider them quite simple and strong faction. Strong and initiative key creatures which synergy very well with haste + benediction.
Zombies are good as they are in the NRPE mode. After all Necro race is not about quality but quantity, I would not touch them for now.
ACtually what is OP in necro is not necro but Dark magic - Puppet master and frenzy spells. They need to be revised but for that later on. Now we speak creature balance only.
Blade dancers are very very very powerful. NRPE patch reconfigured them well as far as I can remember (the defensive upgrade gets 1 def per square instead of 2 ). So no work to do there too.
Regarding Tower - Early tier creatures are OK too. Gargoyle has best speed and some interesting upgrades that come in handy late game.
Gremlins compensate for the gargoyle slowness quite good.
Actually the Iron golems are quite stupid, they are only good for the magnetism armor against other mages - they are slow, not good speed and not quite bulky... NRPE mode increased the initiative with 1 which is OK i think.
I dont like the alternative upgrades of the tower creatures, they are quite the same (Titan) or useless (alternative mage upgrade).
I dont know what NRPE did with them, I should check. Otherwise I like the race. May be the only thing I dont like is that you have go back to castle to reset creature artifact strength equal to the hero knowledge.
Does anybody know if this can be done to work automatically? Like once at the beginning of each day?
Dungeon - cant speak for them, havent played much with them. I like the faction idea a lot but still no chance to try them. A friend of mine tells me that minotars are not very strong too. This is valid for the level 6 tier as well. I see that NRPE increased the population with +1 so may be this is OK for now. More when I check em out  .It also added some good spells for them.
Anything else?
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Just to sum up the reasonable fixes:
INFERNO
1. Permanent Urgash call for tier 2 - al upgrades.
2. Removing the sulfur requirement from the bonus dwelling building for tier 2.
NECROPOLIS
1. Zombie alt upg like NRPE - +1 attack and 1 init or +2 hp and 1 def
SYLVAN
1. Tier 2 alt upgr (WIND DANCER) nerfed NRPE: 1 def per square instead of 2.
2. DRAGONS nerfed NRPE style: initiative 13 instead of 14 (14 init and 9 speed is just too strong for ANY level 7 tier).
Note: sylvans may need more refurbishing.... still toooooo strong. They are made to depend on the archers which I consider fun and strategy breaker... where is the fun when you have 6 more stacks that you just use for blocking...
TOWER:
1. all Golems +1 init (NRPE style).
Note: change alt upgrades for Titans and mages
Dungeon:
1. 6th tier +1 population (NRPE style) and some spells  .
CASTLE:
1. NRPE style adds some variety in zealot upgrades. You have good and bad upgrade according with Light and Dark spells .
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2013 10:07 PM |
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dredknight said:
Strong and initiative key creatures which synergy very well with haste + benediction.
Benediction is not worth the whole turn you need to cast it. No one ever picks it on multi.
dredknight said:
ACtually what is OP in necro is not necro but Dark magic - Puppet master and frenzy spells. They need to be revised but for that later on. Now we speak creature balance only.
If you nerf them then might + light will dominate lategame even more. Light + empathy + mass cleansing/magic immunity? Overkill.
Pupet + frenzy are broken vs neutral units, that the only problem.
dredknight said:
Blade dancers are very very very powerful. NRPE patch reconfigured them well as far as I can remember (the defensive upgrade gets 1 def per square instead of 2 ). So no work to do there too.
agree, with 15 ini, possible luck+favoured+morale on their 1st turn they are indeed scary. Also note that their numbers can be 3pled via the battle commander perk.
dredknight said:
I dont like the alternative upgrades of the tower creatures, they are quite the same (Titan) or useless (alternative mage upgrade).
I dont know what NRPE did with them, I should check. Otherwise I like the race. May be the only thing I dont like is that you have go back to castle to reset creature artifact strength equal to the hero knowledge.
Oh rofl. Storm titans may be boring, but they are very strong when horded. Their biggest weakness is that most maps dont allow you to have more than 10-15 lvl 7 units.
The alternative mages are far from useless in the lategame, they are actually picked 100% of time due to their dampen magic ability.
dredknight said:
May be the only thing I dont like is that you have go back to castle to reset creature artifact strength equal to the hero knowledge. Does anybody know if this can be done to work automatically? Like once at the beginning of each day?
Its the best thing about academy actually. You put all your knowledge artefacts, craft miniarties, then transfer your army to a mentored knight hero and put on him combat artefacts instead of those useless knowledge boosters. If you change it the way you propose you will nerf academy to oblivion  .
dredknight said:
2.DRAGONS nerfed NRPE style: initiative 13 instead of 14 (14 init and 9 speed is just too strong for ANY level 7 tier).
And they will still be broken. What makes them broken is the fact that they can hit up to 5 targets with luck + favoured.
dredknight said:
Note: sylvans may need more refurbishing.... still toooooo strong. They are made to depend on the archers which I consider fun and strategy breaker... where is the fun when you have 6 more stacks that you just use for blocking...
They arent that strong whatsoever. I do consider them the best town overall for lategame maps, BUT they may be wiped out by academy, dwarves and haven rather easily if the map allows you to reach the full potential of those towns.
Sylvan depends on wind dancers, arcanes, high druids, unicors, dragons
+ setting 3-4 favoured enemies for free and a first turn charge.
Correcting some stuff based on multi experience
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2013 11:46 PM |
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zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
Strong and initiative key creatures which synergy very well with haste + benediction.
Benediction is not worth the whole turn you need to cast it. No one ever picks it on multi.
I thought he said bless. (bénédiction in french version of H1,2,3,4) at least that would make more sense.
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Undead_king_
Hired Hero
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posted September 24, 2013 09:23 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Undead_king_ said:
PS: Ok i managed to edit the units thx to this folder, but i can't find the real names of some abilities ( for example it's Righteous Might is named Bloodlust in the mechanics)...
Use the Modding Wiki - [url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/modding_wiki/start?idx=list_of_id]Lists of IDs[/url]!
There you'll find the names used in the txt files and the names showed in game
Thx a lot man
Also, i generally know how to edit creatures but the problem is my Game Mechanics folder is missing and i can't edit other stuff ( like Damage from Call lighting, How much is the next level of Bloodrage, that kind of stuff ) , all i have is the folder the TS linked with only the creatures, I asked if someone link me ALL the editable files ? The WHOLE GAME MECHANICS folder not just creatures,
PS: Nevermind, i think i found them thx anyway
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 24, 2013 12:52 PM |
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Undead_king_ said:
Thx a lot man
You're welcome
Undead_king_ said:
Also, i generally know how to edit creatures but the problem is my Game Mechanics folder is missing and i can't edit other stuff ( like Damage from Call lighting, How much is the next level of Bloodrage, that kind of stuff ) , all i have is the folder the TS linked with only the creatures, I asked if someone link me ALL the editable files ? The WHOLE GAME MECHANICS folder not just creatures,
PS: Nevermind, i think i found them thx anyway
Everything is on the Data folder, where you'll find several .pak files. It's highly reccomended that you extract the files you want to edit (for example, the whole GameMechanics folder) so you always have the original data untouched on the pak files.
(you can use your MODs either with .pak files on the UserMODs folder, or directly on the Data folder as normal files & folders, just with the correct route).
A lot of the basic stuff is explained on the modding tutorial, in case you missed it.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 24, 2013 02:50 PM |
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zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
Strong and initiative key creatures which synergy very well with haste + benediction.
Benediction is not worth the whole turn you need to cast it. No one ever picks it on multi.
Point taken, I mostly play against real heaven opponents which suck so I agree with you. I do not know what is the duration of the spell.
Point taken.
Btw I like the benediction spell change in NRPE.
zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
Actually what is OP in necro is not necro but Dark magic - Puppet master and frenzy spells. They need to be revised but for that later on. Now we speak creature balance only.
If you nerf them then might + light will dominate lategame even more. Light + empathy + mass cleansing/magic immunity? Overkill.
Pupet + frenzy are broken vs neutral units, that the only problem.
Thanks for sharing experience on this one. the people I play against are always complaining it is OP while they play 100% might factions + light magic with no magic defense at all.
zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
Blade dancers are very very very powerful. NRPE patch reconfigured them well as far as I can remember (the defensive upgrade gets 1 def per square instead of 2 ). So no work to do there too.
agree, with 15 ini, possible luck+favoured+morale on their 1st turn they are indeed scary. Also note that their numbers can be 3pled via the battle commander perk.
Agreed! NRPE just reduces the wind dancers movement def so they are still strong.
zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
I dont like the alternative upgrades of the tower creatures, they are quite the same (Titan) or useless (alternative mage upgrade).
I dont know what NRPE did with them, I should check. Otherwise I like the race. May be the only thing I dont like is that you have go back to castle to reset creature artifact strength equal to the hero knowledge.
Oh rofl. Storm titans may be boring, but they are very strong when horded. Their biggest weakness is that most maps dont allow you to have more then 10-15 lvl 7 units.
The alternative mages are far from useless in the lategame, they are actually picked 100% of time due to their dampen magic ability.
Thanks for the knowledge here. But I am a bit confused as the DAMPEN MAGIC description says - This creature completely defends all neighboring friendly stacks from distant Mage attacks.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think this means the tower mage protects the surrounding units against other tower mages and their abilities. Does dampen magic protects from Hero spells or other things?
zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
May be the only thing I dont like is that you have go back to castle to reset creature artifact strength equal to the hero knowledge. Does anybody know if this can be done to work automatically? Like once at the beginning of each day?
Its the best thing about academy actually. You put all your knowledge artefacts, craft miniarties, then transfer your army to a mentored knight hero and put on him combat artefacts instead of those useless knowledge boosters. If you change it the way you propose you will nerf academy to oblivion .
Forgive me for the stupid idea.. actually I use this bug all the time with Academy and completely forgot about it when writing here we do NO change ;D.
zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
2.DRAGONS nerfed NRPE style: initiative 13 instead of 14 (14 init and 9 speed is just too strong for ANY level 7 tier).
And they will still be broken. What makes them broken is the fact that they can hit up to 5 targets with luck + favoured.
So what seems the root problem is the sylvan faction perk not the race. May be changing it into smth else ?
What if fav enemy does not work for creatures but only for the hero?
what if it works like this:
Basic/advanced/expert fav - hero does additional damage equal to +5/+10/+15 levels added to his own. This will make the hero attacks strong even in big battles, in fact his purpose will be to kill high tier creatures because he does pure damage and no def is taken into consideration.
summing up to this the double or tripple shot will make him very deadly . Just the hero he is made to be .
zaio-baio said:
dredknight said:
Note: sylvans may need more refurbishing.... still toooooo strong. They are made to depend on the archers which I consider fun and strategy breaker... where is the fun when you have 6 more stacks that you just use for blocking...
They arent that strong whatsoever. I do consider them the best town overall for lategame maps, BUT they may be wiped out by academy, dwarves and haven rather easily if the map allows you to reach the full potential of those towns.
Sylvan depends on wind dancers, arcanes, high druids, unicors, dragons
+ setting 3-4 favoured enemies for free and a first turn charge.
Correcting some stuff based on multi experience
agreed about sylvan whatever i had to point it is in the above comments.Thanks a lot for the knowledge!
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 24, 2013 05:38 PM |
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@ Dreadknight
Benediction is not simple to balance. Its available on the very first lvl up of the knights and it requires 0 mana to be casted. If you boost it to be worthy for the final battle then it will be way too strong early game, potentially breaking the balance. What is possible tho, is to make it scale with your hero lvl. Say same bonus as of now for the first 15 lvls, then at lvl 16 boost its effects, that way it will be stronger in the mid-lategame, while not too strong early.
The "mage attack" of all mages damages both ally and enemy units. The battle mage's "dampen magic ability" makes all your units that are adjacent to your battle mages immune to their magic attack. In other words it allows you to hide your battle mages behind your gargoyes and golems and shoot without damaging them.
About the crystal dragons - its the crystal breath needs reworking, thats what is broken. Still, strong players tend to pick the emerald dragons vs good amount of factions, because their attack is predictable. For instance you play as sylvan vs opponents haven. What you should aim for is to melt down your opponents crossbows before they shoot. If you choose the emerald dragons and guess the right corner(where the crossbowmans are placed) you will hit them for sure with the double breath. If you choose crystal dragons, then you may not hit the crossbows even if you guess the right corner - because the crystal breath is not predictable. Now in that specific match up killing the crossbows before they play gives you a huge advantage, thats why the better sylvan players always pick emerald dragons for close battles vs haven. If you happen have big army/artefact/lvl advantage over your opponent then it doesnt matter what dragons you use. For those close battles, however, the emeralds are better. Of course the crystal dragons ,with their crystal breath, may hit multiple stacks including the crossbows, but its not worth the risk.
Speaking of risks - that why i never liked some of the toh maps. The mapmakers have made them balanced for a final battle week 4-5, but some factions/heroes needed to take less risks then others while creeping. For instance the academy vs inferno match up is balanced for a final battle during week 4-5, but the academy player needs to take less risks while creeping than the inferno player. When playing competitively there is no option of loading if you suicide, so its simply better to choose the safer faction.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 25, 2013 10:18 AM |
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on RPE benediction scales with the level - duration equals to 2+0.25*Level turns. It gives 2 attack, def and morale and +10% init.
Similar is done with banshee howl - enemy living
creatures receive -2 to morale, luck and -10% on initiative. Duration is as benediction.
About dampen magic, I got it now this is cool .
zaio-baio said:
Speaking of risks - that why i never liked some of the toh maps. The mapmakers have made them balanced for a final battle week 4-5, but some factions/heroes needed to take less risks then others while creeping. For instance the academy vs inferno match up is balanced for a final battle during week 4-5, but the academy player needs to take less risks while creeping than the inferno player. When playing competitively there is no option of loading if you suicide, so its simply better to choose the safer faction.
I agree on this one.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2013 05:20 PM |
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if I remember well, some of my own changes were :
crossbowman : damage : 2-6
inquisitor : spell points : 15
horned demon/overseer : +1 speed, +1 initiative
cerberus : +1 defense, +4 HPs
firehound : +3 HPs
Hell stallion : damage : 8-16
pit lord : fireball and meteor shower advanced, +1 speed, +1 initiative.
archdemon : +1 to teleport other range.
skeleton archer : scatter shot
vampire lord : 40 HPs, speed 8
Wight / wraith / banshee : Crystal scales (immunity to harm touch, vorpal blade and other similar abilities) I suggest changing the ability name.
banshee : attack : 24, defense : 26
minotaur guard : defense : 5
dark raider : lizard bite instead of rider charge
brisk raider : defense : 10, damage : 7- 14
all 3 witches : slow expert and extra spell points (19 I think)
archmage : spell points : 20
battle mage : 30 HPs, defense : 10, magic fist Advanced, dispel expert
dkinn sultan : 50 HPs
rakshasa kshatra : 120 HPs
storm titan : 210 HPs, damage : 40-60, +50% to storm effect
mountain guard : 13 HPs
berserker : 30 HPs
thunder thane : weaker storm bolt
lava dragon : fire shield
dryad : damage : 2-2
war dancer : speed : 7
Wind dancer : damage : 3-5
arcane archer : weaker force Arrow, attack 4, initiative 10
druid elder : 34 HPs
goblin with doctor : initiative 10
mauler : 14 or 15 HPs
sky daughter : speed 5, fast attack
foul wyvern : damage : 22-29
paokai : damage : 22-27
bloodeyed cyclop : damage : 40-52
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VOKIALBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted September 29, 2013 12:28 PM |
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+ 1 initiative for zombies?
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 29, 2013 03:57 PM |
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VOKIALBG said:
+ 1 initiative for zombies?
Why?
@ Fauch - I dont like changing so many things, better just nerf the arcane archers and ban mentoring. Thats the 2 most annoying things in the game.
+ If you dont play toh maps then mentoring is not that strong anyways, ive no idea why some toh mapmakers decided to put so many stats boosters and sylanna trees right next to each other. On large/xl/huge rmg templates there are no sylanna ancients to be found on the map whatsoever. I guess the ubi map/template makers knew what they were doing.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 29, 2013 06:02 PM |
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then just don't put memory mentors on toh maps.
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siinn
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 11, 2013 04:33 PM |
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Good topic here! At least someone is trying to fix the remaining little fails in creatures balance (especially with the two upgrades).
If I had enought time I should discuss on every balance idea but time is the one big thing I'm missing everytime.
I would like to propose another idea : what about making all level7 creatures a bit more "like before", a bit more powerfull like they used to be in the previous HoM&M games?
What do you think about giving every level 7 creature a +20 HP or a +10% HP boost??
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 01:27 AM |
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aren't they more powerful? their attack and defense is much higher than in homm3 (except for the archangel)
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siinn
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 11:58 AM |
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Ah? If you say so.
It seems to me they use to die faster than before against low level foes. I'm the onlt one to think this way maybe...
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 12:16 PM |
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The real problem is not the stat of the level 7 creatures, they are OK ( only exception is the bone dragon but don't forget you have 2 per weeks), but their cost and the cost of the building to have them!
I will be clever to mod the building cost before changing creatures stat!
And there is still a mod for that RPE Mod....
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 01:54 PM |
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maybe it's the lower levels which are stronger than before
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Lubomir
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 07, 2014 10:41 AM |
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siinn said:
Good topic here! At least someone is trying to fix the remaining little fails in creatures balance (especially with the two upgrades).
If I had enought time I should discuss on every balance idea but time is the one big thing I'm missing everytime.
maybe you find more time in 2014. Thanks for appreciation.
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