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| Thread: Heroes VII |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 02, 2013 10:31 AM |
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DoubleDeck said:
The thing I liked about cooldowns was that there are obviuosly some OP spells and it was good not seeing them cast every turn!
Doesn't make a lot of sense though. You have the mana, you should be able to use your power to its full extent.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 02, 2013 12:19 PM |
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Maybe you're right, it's just that one had a ton of mana in H6...
I suppose a faction like Warlock in H5 would suffer big time if there were cooldowns! It all depends on the mechanics..
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 02, 2013 01:27 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
I don't have anything against randomness, I actually like it as game element. Though I will note that I'm not competitive player, I usually play against AI, and I understand that it is not the best thing to have randomness when playing against other players (balance issues).
Randomness is great to have in a Heroes game - grants variety and replayability. But what H5 have was just too much, I still have nightmares of a Necro vs Sylvan duel, where when my first unit moved, all the seven of him already had their turn and I was already missing 3 full stacks ~_~
Balance is the key to success 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 02, 2013 01:44 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
The thing I liked about cooldowns was that there are obviuosly some OP spells and it was good not seeing them cast every turn!
Other Heroes games had OP spells too. It's just that those spells usually cost a ton of mana and mana regen wasn't the best in the world, so you couldn't cast them by the dozens. The fact that you had too much mana in this game simply hints at an imbalance in the games' mechanics at a somewhat deeper level.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 02, 2013 04:13 PM |
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Quote:
Balance is the key to success
Well said!  H3 combat style was better (without ATB and initiative), in my oppinion.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 02, 2013 08:32 PM |
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One bit of randomness I did object to in H3 was when you had to choose a new skill at level-up, if you got two new ones and you disliked both of them (say, Navigation or Eagle-Eye), you had no option to reject them. Witches huts were also an annoyance, better left to a secondary hero to see what was on offer, lest you end up with, say, Diplomacy (which for some reason only seemed to work with creatures of other factions).
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 02, 2013 08:42 PM |
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@MattII: Yeah that was a flaw in H3...eagle eye...who cares! lol
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 02, 2013 08:59 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:03, 02 Dec 2013.
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I suspect it was a fault of all the games up to and including H5 (though less so the latter, unless you ended up with the same thing with perks).
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 02, 2013 09:32 PM |
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MattII said:
I suspect it was a fault of all the games up to and including H5 (though less so the latter, unless you ended up with the same thing with perks).
Hear, hear.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 02, 2013 09:54 PM |
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Diplomacy has its uses, though maybe not so much in MP.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 03, 2013 06:59 AM |
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For H7, we should have H5 skill system but we choose the path we want in skills...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 03, 2013 10:49 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:53, 03 Dec 2013.
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Avirosb said:
Diplomacy has its uses, though maybe not so much in MP.
I never really liked diplomacy, because it never seemed to work on the creatures of the same town as the rest of my army.
DoubleDeck said:
For H7, we should have H5 skill system but we choose the path we want in skills...
Works for me, though I'd be more inclined to say ditch level-up learning of new skills, and pepper every map with universities, plus a mechanic where a hero can teach other heroes his skills, for a movement cost (1 full turn per level say).
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 03, 2013 12:06 PM |
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The only thing we want secondary heroes for is to pick up stuff on the map, etc. Gone are those days of having 4-8 heroes that actually fought in combat. Now mentoring is different though....
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 03, 2013 01:57 PM |
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Lol I'm surprised some of you never realized how utterly broken H3 diplomacy was When you can have so many powerful joiners you can save your native army as backup. Reminds me a gaming session with a friend where my warlock had been joined by 120 zealots and 75 dendroid soldiers amongst other lovely things. I barely lost the battle and my friend is like, I win! I smile, buy a few weeks' worth of troops from my town and proceed to utterly destroy him. Ah fun times ^^ In another game my Loynis was getting so many evil joiners that I named the save 'repent sinners' 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 03, 2013 09:15 PM |
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Wow Elvin, you shook up my memory banks there, I remember Diplomacy being broken, that's why I stuck to small maps with low creatures!
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted December 03, 2013 11:45 PM |
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I would like to present my own expectations of Heroes 7, based mainly on comparison of Heroes 5 and 6 (but including some pieces of my own invention). So, let's examine them, one category after other.
TOWNS
General, factions, music and appearance
In general, I like the towns of Heroes 5 more. The details will be explained below, but it includes also the number of factions. Of course, I support the idea, that less factions with better balance and greater diversity are a better choice. But comparing H5 & H6, the former had greater diversity, better balance and a higher number of factions anyway. So, in Heroes 7 I would like to (finally) see all factions together.
Another thing, that I miss in Heroes 6 are the towns themselves. In Heroes 5, they were smaller in the adventure map, but epic inside. Since Ubi introduced 3D townscreens, it is a MUST in every next sequel. They might take a lot of time to model, but it is worth the feeling. I remember moments, when I just sat 5 minutes, or so, staring and the beauty of mu fully developed Sylvan/Academy/Stronghold/Haven... in 3D! And even the music was way better.
And, they simply have to change the Necropolis. It has always been one of my favourite factions, but its town (look, feel & music) was very bad in H5 and absolutely horrid in H6. I would like to see them having a architecture similar to the dark elves of Spellforce.
I am still not sure about the shared creature pool vs. caravans. On one hand, it is much more comfortable to be able to hire all creatures from any town on the map. And it sucked when an enemy attacked and destroyed my caravans, one after other. But on the other hand, it required a lot of micromanagement - which is almost void in H6, with the addition of control zones and shared creature pools. The developers should definitely look into this problem and come with a brilliant solution 
Buildings
Buildings should definitely be visible inside of the town, like in H5. But I would keep the tech-tree from H6, including the special buildings. I know, they were present also in H5, but I like the concept of making choices in H6.
Also, they should bring back the magic guilds (and the whole skill-learning system from H5). It gives some more motivation to build guilds in every town, in the pursuit if discovering new spells. And its fun.
So far, it seems I am favouring H5, but H6 also has one giant positive - the portals. Going over the whole map in H5 chasing an enemy in H5 really sucked. I would keep the town portals just the way the are.
Last, but not least, give us town shipyards back! Even more, add them some upgrades, that would allow hiring better ships with some guns (and in a sea battle, my army would be supported by harpoons/cannons, just the way towers work during a siege). Adding the naga creates a lot of potential in sea battles, and it would be a shame not to use it.
Town conversions
YES, a definite yes. This was a great leap forward. I would just make it even more cooler. Hereos 7 could introduce diplomacy (like in the Age of Wonders series). It would be awesome to change the alliances with other players dynamically during gameplay. However, diplomacy should include also the player's relationship toward every faction. Based on player's decisions (pursue/leave running creatures, convert their towns/keeps, accept them into your army, etc.) his/her relationship to the faction would improve/worsen. And if the relationship would be good enough, the player should get the option to convert towns also to the other factions, that like his. This way, you would be able to control 2-3 factions, which gives a lot of strategical options.
Keeps
The idea of having "semi-towns" is interesting, but the keeps/garrisons lack some deeper function in H6, when their only function in to server as a zone hub. I would add them some special buildings (like faction special buildings and magic guilds/workshops, etc. ) so they would be worth fighting for.
CREATURES & FACTIONS
General
I prefer the tier system introduced in H6, rather than 7 creature levels from previous games. However, I would add one more tier between core and elite. Succubus, beholder (or what is the eye's name) and pearl priestess feel they should be above core. And shaman with lacernator feel, they should be below elite. So I would introduce core with 2 creatures, advanced with 2 creature, elite with 2 and a single champion.
Concerning H5, I would re-introduce the alternative upgrades. To me, having options seems as a necessity, yet better than having to choose 2 out of 3 creatures (H4 system). However, I would make those alternatives more "alternative". Meaning, there should be bigger differences, than just stat changes. And the two options should be of equal strength (unlike skeleton archers vs skeleton warrior). An (extreme) example might be djinn upgrading into djinn sultan or a efreet (which is in fact an evil djinn). Similar, angel could be archangel or fallen angel, eagle changing into phoenix or thunder bird... (Well, that might be a bit too much, but you get the point of alternate's differences) The blood & tears system could be included (gaining blood for one upgrade and tears for the other). Or having two different resources, one for every upgrade.
And now a closer look at each faction.
Haven
When I first saw H6 Haven, buildings, units, etc., I was absolutely astonished. Ubi & Black Hole shatered all old boring generic human factions from almost every fantasy game and managed to create an awesome unique and distinct faction of the Holy Griffin Empire. At first, I did not like the glories, but I find them perfect now. I would just make the upgrades a little less "decorated". If I was a leader in H6, I would rather hire an army of mercenaries, than seeing the armour of my praetorians/sentinels scratched. The un-upgraded versions are just OK.
Concerning the racial ability, this one is a bit boring. Invulnerable unit after my army was damaged enough? Meh... I would rather see something rewarding my gameplay and strategy. Something in the spirit "every good deed will be rewarded". So, for example, when I heal/buff other unit, protect it or retaliate, I would get random blessing, or something like that.
The final verdict - definitely H6 Haven, with an altered racial ability.
Inferno
Inferno was one of my least favourite factions, both in H5 and H6. I just kind of don't like their gameplay, gating and all... Yes, gating and teleportation fits demons. But their lineup was a bit generic, both in Heroes 5 & 6. And the cerberi in H6 were just a giant pain in the a**. They died so easily, I would rather not to see them in my army. They did not even have 3 heads!
However, H6 Inferno contains also the most amazing unit. The pit fiend/lord! It teleports through obstacles and enemy walls, disappearing in a cloud of fire and shadow. It triggers luck almost every time it attacks, and sends its enemies into oblivion with the vorpal blade. And it retaliates in a style, punishing every unit which dared to attack this super-demon. You must admit, pit lord is a badass motherf*****. Just give it back the meteor shower from H5, and it will change from the most amazing unit to the most amazing unit ever!
The final verdict - although I don't like them much, I would keep the gating ability (H6 version), but change the lineup into something like: imp & cerberus (core), succubus & tormentor (advanced), breeder & nightmare/efreet (elite) and pit motherf****** lord as the most awesome champion.
Necropolis
As stated above, Necropolis is one of my favourite factions. I love their life-stealing, enemy cursing and dead-back-bringing strategy. From philosophical point of view, they are using their enemies as another resource... which is kinda cool. There is not a big difference between the H5 and H6 lineup, still H6 is better. But too much green. And really, the vampire and skeletons looked better in H5.
Concerning the racial ability, I liked the H5 necromancy much more. Yes, it was more of an adventure ability, than battle ability. But it wasn't so terribly annoying, like killing/resurrecting a unit over and over again. It was more of "I have a small army, lets kill some creatures and get some more units". It encouraged the player into taking action, rewarding his risk (of loosing a battle) with an awesome reward (units - almost - for free).
The final verdict - H6 lienup (maybe with small alternations) with H5 faction ability. And less green. Much less green.
Stronghold
It is really interesting, how the same faction with almost the same units can have such a different feel by changing its cultural theme and its racial ability. In H5 the orcs were like "RRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!". In Heroes 6 they are more like "Ok, let's attack a bit, then I'll give you this orange hand of Saruman and then you can attack a bit more". That is really a sad change. Where have those furious barbarians gone?
I would also change the lineup a little bit: making harpy and panther warrior (or some other fist-fighting orc) core, shaman and wolf rider (c'mon, the most iconic orc unit ever) advanced and pao kai with centaur elite, leaving the cyclops as champion. Are you asking, where did I forget the goblin? I did not... you will see, if you keep reading.
The final verdict - lineup mixed from H5 + H6 + wolf rider and faction ability from H5. Definitely. RRRRRRRRAAAAAAWWWWWRRRRRRR!
Dungeon
Well, Dungeon is another example of quite a big change. In H5 it was all about destruction (sending Empowered Armageddon that would destroy all but black dragons), while in H6 it's about stealth and tactics. To be honest, I cannot decide. I like the new racial skill, but I miss the old one, too.
H6 lineup is much better than the H5 one, but it cut me my two favourite creatures - hydra and dark/grim/brisk rider. Their combination was just devastating - hydra attacked all creatures around itself and the rider attacked them once more. In my dream-lineup, Dungeon would look like this: core - chakram dancer & beholder (ok, shadow lurker/watcher), advanced - grim rider & minotaur, elite - faceless & hydra, champion - black dragon.
The final verdict - mix of H5 & H6 lineup. Cannot decide on racial ability.
Sanctuary
Since Sanctuary was introduced in H6 for the first time, I cannot compare it to anything else - just tell, what I like and what I don't like about it. It has very interesting lineup (except for spring spirit, which should have been replaced by mermaid, or some other new creature).
However, I would definitely make it less water-centred. It is just too overdone. I understand, the developers wanted to make each faction unique and distinct from each other. But even in real life, there are many "sub-factions", and nothing is single-centred. The undead should be less green, demons less fiery, dungeon less purple and sanctuary less watery. Maybe adding there more elements (like medusae controlling earth and some other creatures, whose domain would be air, or even fire) could make the faction more interesting.
Concerning the racial ability... well, there is nothing wrong about honour. But, similarly to Haven, it is a bit boring. It should be improved/changed somehow.
And now, in short, factions the did not make it to H6.
Sylvan - I don't want to sound homophobic, but let's try to make this faction a little bit less gay. Say, when taking inspiration from other games (Warcraft, particularly), try to focus more on night elves, and less on blood elves. Other than that, a nature-loving faction of rangers and druids should be a part of every decent fantasy game.
Fortress - to me, the worst faction of Heroes 5. To be honest, I don't really want to see Fortress in Heroes 7. As a stand-alone faction. Yet, I want the dwarves (and valkyrie, and all that stuff) in the game. As a solution, I would introduce something like semi-factions, which could enrich your main faction. I will describe it more detail below.
Academy - also a must in the game, although I am still not sure, whether the mages should be a stand-alone faction, or a semi-faction (since constructs and other magical creatures would enrich every other faction).
HEROES
General & appearance
I cannot say, whether I like the H5 or H6 heroes more - there are good and bad elements in both. However, I definitely liked the H5 look of the heroes. I mean, I understand humans leading Haven and pale/dead humans leading Necropolis. But why are they leading also Inferno, Sanctuary and Stronghold?! This is just stupid. And what about the horses? Horses for all? This should be definitely changed...
Might & magic, blood & tears
I would abolish the might & magic classes. Instead, the player should define his/her hero during the gameplay, by selecting the hero's skills. So, at the beginning, each hero would have equal chance of becoming a might or magic class.
However, I would keep the blood & tears reputation. It gives more depth to the player decisions, and can be used further in differentiating skills, units, resources, buildings, etc.
Skills
Definitely H5 system. Without any doubt. It was much more fun and in every game, I had a (slightly) different build. Yes, there was a strong element of randomness, but without it, the players would incline to certain stereotypes. Just like I do when playing Heroes 6. Yes, I can plan which skills will I choose, but exactly that is the problem. Because I will choose every time the same skills.
Also, the magic & skill categories were better in H5. So, concerning skills, full speed backward direction to H5 skill-wheel, magic guilds, etc.
Mounts
This idea was at first introduced by the fans during Heroes 6. And now, it should be implemented in Age of Wonders 3. The idea is giving the heroes several mounts, that could be swapped. And every mount would have certain strengths and weaknesses (i.e. different walk penalties when crossing different types of terrain). However, I don't know if this would be effective, since in H6 there are roads everywhere. Still, an idea worth thinking.
War machines
Please, pretty please, bring those war machines back. They were really useful, especially when giving your hero some special abilities (like Plague tent, or Triple ballista).
Additional unit slots
This one comes along with the diplomacy, race relationships and semi-factions. If the player would be able to concentrate and develop more, than just one faction, his heroes should be able to "carry" more units. However, the battles would be too messy with too many units. So, instead, the heroes would be able to deploy only a part of them into a single battle. Let's illustrate it in an example:
I have an Inferno faction with my demon hero and his whole hellish army. However, over the course of game, I accepted some generic quests from the Academy, left their creatures run away in battles and so I controll now also several Academy keeps. My hero is able to "carry" 9 units with him - the entire demon army, and several saboteurs and mages. Now, I am in a battle against a legion of golems. I can deploy only 7 creatures onto the battlefield (like in classical Heroes series). Since golems are constructs, my succubi with their enthrall will be useless. Instead of them, I will choose the saboteurs, which may put the golems out of order for a while. However, I was fighting against some living creatures, I would prefer succubi over saboteurs.
BATTLES
In general, I like H6 battles more. The flags, traps and other things make every battle more diverse. However, I miss the ability to rearrange my units before each battle. It really sucks, when my strongest unit is stuck between some obstacles and my shooters (or just obstacles), and I have to loose a turn to get it out.
OTHER
Resources
I am not a rock fan of the 4 magical resources, but a single one is just too little. Maybe having two (one for one creature upgrade, and second for the other one) would be better.
Zones
When Ubi announced the introduction of zones of control, I was a bit sceptic. I thought, I would turn them off everytime I would play H6. However, in reality I started to like them and I miss them when playing older Heroes. It makes the game much more comfortable and helps to keep focus on the important things (keeps and towns). However, it also destroys a great portion of micro-management and Ubi should deal with this issue, as stated above.
So, in Heroes 7, I would like to see the control zones again, but I would keep the option to turn them off.
Diplomacy
Since the day I discovered Age of Wonders, I miss diplomacy in Heroes. I missed it in the 3rd, 4th, 5th and also 6th title. The ability to change my relationship with other races and forge alliances or declare wars with other players is just awesome. It brings a whole new level of strategy. And it definitely should be introduced into Heroes 7.
Goblins
If you are still asking, where did I put those goblins from the Stronghold, here they are. I believe, goblins are mistreated. They are either pushed to the edge of the game lore (like in Heroes or Spellforce), or just bred as XP givers. Instead, I believe they should get a much larger space, like in Warcraft, World of Warcraft, or Age of Wonders. Not a faction, no, that would be too much. But a half-faction, with just 3-4 units, that could enrich other factions when gaining enough reputation. The goblins could introduce some unstable, crazy, explosive technical equipment, as opposed to the Academy's stable and polished constructs.
Half-Factions
And so I am getting to the half-factions. These would contain only 3-4 units, their heroes and wouldn't have towns, only keeps (but those better ones, with special buildings, tavern, maybe magic guild, workshop, etc.). The half-factions could not be picked by the player to start a game with them. They would be scattered across the map, and the player would gain access to them only if he reached certain level of good reputation. Only then would the player be able to control their keeps, hire their heroes and units and benefit from their special buildings.
The possible candidates for a half-factions are: the goblins, Fortress, Academy and Inferno.
Editor
Please, make a good editor. If you want to see one, buy Warcraft 3. The editor was so powerful, yet simple to use (although not so simple to master). It gave you the ability to change every aspect of the game - not only create new maps, but also change the unit stats, tech trees, start triggers, create new items, new races, scripting the AI, creating dialogues, even cinematics... Even if Heroes 7 implemented just half of these features, it would be still the most powerful editor in Heroes series.
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So, those are my expectations and suggestions for Heroes 7. I hope I did not skip anything. Please, comment and let me know, what do you think.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 04, 2013 02:32 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
For H7, we should have H5 skill system but we choose the path we want in skills...
Agree. Maybe it could be added some extra depth on the system too, but without too many perks to choose. That way it'd be easier to balance and avoid useless perks
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 04, 2013 04:21 PM |
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As much as I agree with many things Naze says, apart from randomness and subfactions, there is something else I need to put out there. Even if nobody realy cares.
Please people, there is a difference between expectations and wishes.
Expectations are predictions of the future. Predictions based on rational assumptions and mathematical probabilities. For instance: "I expect him to fail the shot. He misses 19 out of 20 shots or more, the ones he makes are usually flukes and have nothing to do with his skill. Therefore there is no reason to expect him to succeed this time."
Wishes are desires for the future. They are things we want to happen because it will please us when it does. But they are based on nothing more than our personal preferences. For instance: "I wish Dwarves and the Fortress faction will be included in Heroes 7. I like Dwarves a lot, in general and also in the way they were presented in the past."
What Naze has presented in the previous post, is not an expectation. It is a wishlist, for it is based solely on his desires and likes of previous installments. It is valid as such and he has every right to post his wishes in this thread. But it cannot be a prediction, for it lacks the basis for that.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted December 04, 2013 04:33 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
DoubleDeck said:
For H7, we should have H5 skill system but we choose the path we want in skills...
Agree. Maybe it could be added some extra depth on the system too, but without too many perks to choose. That way it'd be easier to balance and avoid useless perks
Yeah you would choose your skills and perks, and go to like perk level 4 even so from basic, advanced, expert to ultimate (ie. not only primary racial, but all perk paths too!)...
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted December 04, 2013 05:01 PM |
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War-overlord said:
As much as I agree with many things Naze says, apart from randomness and subfactions, there is something else I need to put out there. Even if nobody realy cares.
Please people, there is a difference between expectations and wishes.
Expectations are predictions of the future. Predictions based on rational assumptions and mathematical probabilities. For instance: "I expect him to fail the shot. He misses 19 out of 20 shots or more, the ones he makes are usually flukes and have nothing to do with his skill. Therefore there is no reason to expect him to succeed this time."
Wishes are desires for the future. They are things we want to happen because it will please us when it does. But they are based on nothing more than our personal preferences. For instance: "I wish Dwarves and the Fortress faction will be included in Heroes 7. I like Dwarves a lot, in general and also in the way they were presented in the past."
What Naze has presented in the previous post, is not an expectation. It is a wishlist, for it is based solely on his desires and likes of previous installments. It is valid as such and he has every right to post his wishes in this thread. But it cannot be a prediction, for it lacks the basis for that.
Sorry, I am not a native speaker, so maybe I was using the wrong words/phrases But I believe, Ubi wants to please the players. And I am a player. So, in order to be pleased, I expect certain things, which I have written in the list
But you're right, it is a wishlist. Anyway, I would like to know what do you agree with, and what you don't. The name of the thread is "Heroes VII", so we may post our wishes here... and maybe Ubisoft will learn of them in one way or other.
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