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Abaddon
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 07:14 AM |
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Edited by Abaddon at 07:33, 05 Oct 2016.
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Quote:
But you make it sound like every single thing I or @emil post here is some total bullcr@p, even if it's about art on cards or watering flowers.
I like to think that I have kept my criticism to opinion about cards only or the general attitude about the game.
I understand that I can come across elitist and well that is mostly because I tend to be elitist when it comes to the competitive aspect of any game I am into.
So when I so viciously condemn some of the opinions here it is because objectively speaking they are horrendously wrong. It is not something that is up for debate or something that is different for each player. They are wrong.
Anybody is entitled to their opinion but that doesn't make the opinion a valid point.
But again I like to think that when I have done such a thing it was strictly about cards or your attitude towards rng.
Quote:
But I simply can't agree that, aside from my own observations and expieriences, the game is ok, when even pro players and devs recent activities signal that something is actually amiss...
See this is what I don't understand. You keep implying that I somehow attribute hearthstone as being this wonderfully balanced game where the better player always wins by virtue of being the better player. I haven't said anything of the sort.
Hearthstone has actually been taking steps backwards since the beta. It has become increasingly dumbed down, become very minion centric which pushes out control and combo further and further since none of the control tools scale efficiently with the powerlevel of the minions over time and combo keeps getting it's combo pieces destroyed. Aggro has always had the better position in non-race matchups because in Hearthstone it is much better to be putting on the pressure rather than being forced to have the correct answer. In general the game is being pushed in a very midrange-y mess where most decks just need to make the strongest play for each mana cost on each turn.
And of course the increase of RNG with cards like flamewaker, yogg and tuskarr.
Quote:
Care to elaborate? You say that being good in this game requires a lot of understanding which some players lack, but when a guy tells you he had a really long string of punishing rng in this game (which you yourself pointed as being an aspect of the game), you simply tell him that his a bad player and that's the only reason for him loosing... because no way you could loose 20 games in a row! Do you keep some statistics on this?
Well I did just elaborate.
And I have no qualms about telling you that in those 20 games the bigger problem out of bad rng and your skill is absolutely your skill. Why? Because this isn't the first time you have ranted about a massive losing streak and you attribute "bad rng" with the strangest things. It makes sense to talk about bad rng when flamewaker, knifejuggler, yogg or tuskarr screw you over or when you have an unplayable hand till like turn 4 or 5 or when people string 3 card lethals together with a topdeck.
But you hardly ever complain about stuff like that, its always some story about a game where you felt cheated out of a deserved win because you supposedly did everything right and still lost.
One of your favourites being "he topdecked exact lethal".
Statistically speaking bad rng is unlikely and mostly restricted to the minions I mentioned earlier when it comes to gamechanging rng. Almost all other rng in the game will be found in any other card game. A big part of the skill of any card game comes from being able to manipulate that "rng" in your favour.
By building your deck correctly so you don't end up with unplayable hands too much, by mulliganing correctly, playing to your outs, playing around the opponents outs and thinking a few turns ahead.
And when you complain it is almost exclusively about that aspect of the game. An aspect of the game which is heavily influeceable by the player, if that weren't the case how could you ever have consistent pro players?
Not just in Hearthstone look at Magic the Gathering at their big tournaments (aswell as in Hearthstone) you will almost always find a certain group of players who get to big finishes consistently. If "bad rng" as you describe it where so prerelevant that'd be impossible.
Not to mention how statistically unlikely it would be for you to end up with unfunctional draws 20 games in a row!!
I have been on losing streaks too, everyone has and everyone has lost games to rng probably even a few in a row but not 20. And yeah it sucks and I'm certainly never happy when my opponents yogg snow me over and destroy me or basically win them the game when like 8 out of 10 my yoggs actually kill me or backfire horribly. I'm not immune to getting mad over bad rng and I'm most certainly not too happy with the state of Hearthstone in general but I'm still aware enough to know where the fault lies in the games.
Quote:
It's nice when you're giving sound advice. But the way you're adressing us is what I'm not OK with. This goes beyond "telling the truth even if it will hurt the other person" cause "you know, just stating the obvious". This is a form of arogance that makes me belive that your not a popular person. There's only one opinion: your opinion it seems.
And sure I could be a bit nicer. I like to think that I started out that way but I stop being too friendly once I notice people are not willing to have a discussion while insisting their view of things is the correct one. When no argument they make has any solid explanation and they refuse to compromise or even acknowledge any argument brought forth against them. I like to think I consistently made an effort to explain myself when I corrected anyone.
When I don't know snow about the subject being discussed I'm not going to say anything because I don't know stuff. Unfortunately I know a lot about Hearthstone.
I understand that specifically in this Hearthstone thread I can come across as arrogant but that is mostly so because I know I am correct in what I say. I am very knowledgeable about Hearthstone mostly because I stay informed on the happenings in Hearthstone and I finish each season rank 5 or higher each season. I haven't been legend yet and I have no way of backing up my claim of consistently placing in the top 2% of players on EU but if you need confirmation I'll gladly add you at the end of each season so you can see for yourself.
So far there hasn't even been a point where opinions have been discussed where I was involved. All I have done is correct wrong assumptions. I am fully aware that I am not the end all-be-all of Hearthstone knowledge but so far I don't think I have addressed any subject that had more than one correct answer.
No offense taken.
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Abaddon
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 07:18 AM |
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Nvm I actually remember one time where I was giving you grief for throwing a fit about opening duplicate legendaries. But that's because your near constant complaining even about positive things (opening 2 legendaries in close succession!!) had become incredibly insufferable to me personally.
Still I do believe I apologized for that after you justly gave me crap for saying you were being a giant whiny baby.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 05, 2016 09:24 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 09:25, 05 Oct 2016.
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I would really like you to stay here in this thread and give your opinion about specific cases/minions/spells brought up by others.
My attitude refering to losing games or not reaching goals in games was always: "What the heck did I do wrong?", "What could have been done better?". So if a better player explains where the wrong decisions were made and what would have been the better choices, this would always be very useful to become a better player.
Of course criticism is not always easy to elaborate and not easy to tolerate....but as long as it doesn't get personal, I am completely fine with stuff like: "Oh my god...what a noob!" 
Ranting about being unlucky doesn't make you better...it just gives an excuse and lets you gloze over mistakes maken. (no offense to anyone...just said in general.. )
What I would love to see would be posting a video of an own game, which could be overlooked and "valued" by you or other gamers. Especially pointing out gamebreaking decisions would help a lot to improve.
The new update fo Hearthstone deck tracker brought a great feature refering to share a played game AFTER the game was finished, so it makes it really easy to upload such stuff and discuss about it here.
Any takers?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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emilsn91
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 11:59 AM |
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Quick thought: I have now played my current hunter deck, which runs two Call of the wild. That 1 mana change is really a difference.. Every 8th turn you have to think differently.. ANd when you play cotw on turn 9 the impact is not that powerful..
The card is not useless, but not gamebreaking anymore.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 05, 2016 06:35 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 19:02, 05 Oct 2016.
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@Abaddon
See, couldn't you be this way from the start? Your first post on this page has given me and entirely new perspective on your person, that which I can cope with, even if my views can be so much different. I'm certainly slow to get a clue, but if that's what you really think about this game, then I couldn't 'extract' this from your various posts here or was too blinded by rage (which I still think you somewhat incurred let's be clear on that ).
I will also explain something on my part, in hopes of shedding some light on my behaviour and why I'm so ridiciulously bound on explaining many things with luck:
It's the way I percieve luck in games in general. Some people are more rational, they percieve their success in games through cumulative skill (which is probably the real case) while I'm more superstitious. I won't deny that I'm not one of those skilled players. But I also think regular people lack enough luck to 'push through things' when the going gets tough and luck is the only answer, which top players appear to have. I don't deny the fact that you can use skill to maximize your results, reduce or even bind RNG into your favor, but at the same time I think this game has too many random elements that have too much of a negative impact on it and thus change the outcome of games based only on a literal 'coin toss' (which lucky people throw in their favor).
Call me a primitive, call me a whiner (oh wait, you already did ), but I'm actually pretty much certain that luck has an impact of how I fare in games. It's like seeing this friend of yours who always seems to win, even when you both try something for the first time, like a party game or tennis. Most people will shrug this off as 'you can't be serious' or 'it's just the way he is' but I have a slightly different view on this... maybe because I actually know this type of people?
Tell you what: I will try to shut my face up whenever I feel like saying some one-sided comments, If your still willing to come visit here from time to time. I'll try to make my claims based on actual results/statistics even game recordings, not my 'impressions'. Maybe then we will have some kind of a base to either strenghten my claims or yours...
And when I'll have another 20 losses in a row thing, I won't bother you guys with my repetetive whining...
@angelito
Point taken, maybe I should use video recording. Do I need deck tracker or can I use Battle.net stream function? I didn't read much about it...
TAKE NOTE: Also a have a really big request because your a moderator. Can you please correct the name of this thread into "Hearthstone"?
@emil: About CotW nerf, well that's not the certainly something I can confirm at this point, but I'm not all-Hunter player, so I maybe I still don't see it...
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted October 05, 2016 07:09 PM |
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Edited by veco at 21:00, 05 Oct 2016.
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Testing the deck tracker replay feature:
Shaman Sadness
edit
It even looks moderately readable although the cards played seem to pop up too quickly to get a grip on what's going on.
edit2:
as for interesting things in this game, apart from shaman having an abysmal opening hand there two of my decisions that really payed off
1) turn 7, I didn't hit the flametongue so that I could clear it cleanly with Skulker the following turn
2) turn 11, stealthing the SI-7 which made it dodge both rockbiter and fire ele 
@blob2
this is how to RNG ( I even got some value out of cursed blade )
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none of my business.
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Ereinion156
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 09:15 PM |
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Nice game!
Well, we were talking about nerfed cards earlier (or maybe some days ago) and if they were op or not at all. So, I was playing priest a bit today, because I had some quest left for which I had to play him, when I met a Warlock and saw a card which really stroke me as unbalanced (or maybe it's just me being inexperienced and thinking that way?).
It read something like:"Spend all your mana. Summon a 1/1 Tentacle for each mana spend" Ouch! I mean: my enemy played that on turn 5, directly in combo with a coin and the reliquary seeker. I instantly lost that game in that moment. What are your opinions to this card?
Btw: is the Innkeeper any good? Because, well, my priest deck is pretty nice when things are working out fine, but it's really crappy when things aren't. And I'm always missing so many cards, when I'm just looking for some decks on Hearthpwn and it's not as if I would have any dust (like 35 or something).
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted October 05, 2016 09:35 PM |
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Forbidden Ritual is something I've never actually seen played againts me, with all the ravaging ghouls and pyromancers flying around it's extremely underwhelming. You just had bad luck that time.
As for priest you just described the problem - and I feel that it doesn't really get much better as you gain cards for the class.
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none of my business.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 06, 2016 11:18 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 11:18, 06 Oct 2016.
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veco said:
Testing the deck tracker replay feature:
Shaman Sadness
edit
It even looks moderately readable although the cards played seem to pop up too quickly to get a grip on what's going on.
edit2:
as for interesting things in this game, apart from shaman having an abysmal opening hand there two of my decisions that really payed off
1) turn 7, I didn't hit the flametongue so that I could clear it cleanly with Skulker the following turn
2) turn 11, stealthing the SI-7 which made it dodge both rockbiter and fire ele
@blob2
this is how to RNG ( I even got some value out of cursed blade )
My thoughts on your game (please fire back if I write nonsense )
Turn 5: I would have played the sap...returned his thing from below back to his hand. Afterwards attacked his Argent Squire with my dagger and then played the SI:7 to finish the Argent Squire of. Finally going face with the huckster.
Board cleard...3 cards of mine present.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Ereinion156
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 06, 2016 11:21 AM |
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@veco: Well, you are right. I forgot how easily that could be countered by a mass damage spell. But, well I don't really have a lot of them in my priest deck, only holy nova, which I hadn't in hand at this moment.
EDIT: I haven't really played Arena up to this point. I'm thinking about trying it a bit. What would you advise?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 06, 2016 01:46 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:56, 06 Oct 2016.
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An arena game of mine from yesterday.
Druid Arena
And a ladder game from today:
Warrior hits hard
Please comment...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Ereinion156
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 06, 2016 02:11 PM |
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Well, I never thought about that, but C'thun plus Brann is actually a quite nasty combination. Especially since there are all that nice Cards working together with C'thun who also got Battlecries. Nice game!
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted October 06, 2016 04:23 PM |
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Edited by veco at 16:23, 06 Oct 2016.
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@Ereinion156
Arena is a game mode in which I absolutely love the drafting part and loathe playing the games out because if you're doing bad you lose gold and if you're doing good you have to wait longer before drafting again
Generally speaking if you're looking to gain a few extra coins then it's a bad idea but if you're into the idea and don't care about constructed much (for many justified reasons) absolutely go for it. Focus on what you find the most fun and don't mind the other stuff.
@angelito
I did consider sap on that turn but decided againts it for a few reasons.
1) he played the Thing for 3 mana so next turn most likely he would've played it for 2 or less
2) I have only one copy of Sap and I want to save it for the 4 mana 7/7
3) I didn't have a turn 6 play if I just sapped and this way I got two extra draws while resetting the board
4) I was at full hp so trading in the 5 damage was acceptable
Druid game was clean, good discover picks, dealt with shredder+faceless efficiently and had better late game cards at the end, not much more to say
In the Warrior game I feel the Mage should've coined sylvanas turn 5 and attacked the taunt to enrage instead of going for some wonky missile rng.
The turn 2 flame juggler into a Winaxe was also questionale when he had a portal in hand imo.
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none of my business.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 06, 2016 08:18 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 20:39, 06 Oct 2016.
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Brann can get you some crazy combos, but he's always recognized as a insta threat so he gets removed asap. For him to survive a few turns like in that Angelito game was only possible because opponent had no removals at that point. But a Brann+C'thun combo is rather hard to survive
Druid game was good, steadly controling the board was the key. Both players had some solid decks, but you outvalued him with your late game taunts. The game could've still gone in different way but that heal on Bog was crucial. I've had a lot of this type of close games back when I played Arena, but lost quite a few when my opponent drew some really good cards (like Flamestrike, or Boom). I remember one game with Mage when I lost because he had 4 Flamstrikes... who picks 4 Flamestrikes in Arena! It totally caught me off guard. But I guess you never know what you'll encounter in Arena.
But to tell you the truth I find this app a little hard to read (though it's probably the most easy to use). Do you guys have any alternatives?
BTW do you think some people can use this kind of (customized) apps to 'spy' on your hand?
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted October 06, 2016 08:45 PM |
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Edited by veco at 20:52, 06 Oct 2016.
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No, the info it reads comes from your client, not from the server.
You only see the cards that were played, that's why in angelito's warrior game you don't actually see the mage's coin because it was never used.
Think of it as an interactive notepad that writes down every little bit of info available to you and then retroactively pieces together a replay based on the position of cards in the opponent's hand
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none of my business.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 06, 2016 09:41 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 12:01, 07 Oct 2016.
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So based on cards that were played it calculates your opponents hand? Because that's what mislead me (I was wondering how the app 'saw' his whole hand)  Well it makes sense when you think about it
PS: HAHAHA...
I had both already 
I suppose getting this kind of pack back when WotOG was released would make me s*it in my pants On a side note, that's a lot of TENTACLES!
BTW I'm keeping statistics on this and it appears that since 15.09 I got a legendary once per 7 WotOG packs  Did they tweak something with the pity timer?
EDIT: Also @angelito thanks for updating this threads title, it was bugging me for so long I can even remember
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emilsn91
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 12:27 PM |
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Awww man! I would love that pack! I want that Ragnoros so badly.. :/
But you are right; within the first week of WotG that would have been a killer pack. I got Nat the darkfisher yesterday.. I will keep him for extra dust for when next expansion hits.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 07, 2016 12:38 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:04, 08 Oct 2016.
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emilsn91 said:
I got Nat the darkfisher yesterday.. I will keep him for extra dust for when next expansion hits.
Oh yeah, I've seen you getting him. Going by how we're getting similiar Legendaries recently you should be getting Lightlord soon
Guys what can you say about Y'Shaarj and Paletress? Aside from the facts that they're rarely played and have probably no competetive value...
EDIT: Nevermind, I crafted Paletress anyway. My first Priest Legendary yay Yeah I know, should've kept that dust for new expansion proably, but nowadays I'm concentrating on crafting Legendaries that I won't get from packs anymore (because I don't buy TGT packs for instance). Priest Legends being not that good overall, I figured she's the most all-around from them. She's the type of Legendary that 90% of the time will get you a Nat Pagle, but those remaining 10% can win you games
In other news, to show that I don't only write about negative things I had a really close and fun game with a midrange-ish (?) Paladin while I was playing Dragon Priest. I think we both played really well, trading blows and counter blows, my biggest mistake being that I casted Excavated Evil soon after he played Elise, and thus I gave him a 'free' Legendary (though I still had to clear his board), which turned out to be Deathwing to whom I had no answer left. Fortunately for me I won cause he was 1 HP short of lethal, and I still had a few minions left.
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Ereinion156
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 08, 2016 02:26 PM |
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I today played against some really strange decks.
First I played Mage and I met a thief-rogue, who was stealing so many cards from me that in fact it was a great mage-duell. Okay, maybe that was also because he literally got Cabalist Tome 3 times. There just was like no board at all in that game, because every minion played was just instantly blasted by some spell. In the end he won, because he played C'thun with 16 damage in one round and Pyroblast directly in the next, after I killed C'thun.
The second game I played again as mage and I met a priest. Really strange game with lots of struggles for board control. Where he after some point got the upper hand until I could turn the game three turns before my deck was empty with a flamestroke. So, in the end I actually bested a priest in fatigue. Crazy!
In the last game I played Warrior and met a really strange kind of Warlock. Against whom I controlled the early game and dealt a lot of damage against his face, until he totally turned around the game with Reno. Shortly after followed Ysera by him. I couldn't do anything, because I blasted my power in that early rush. I've really never seen a Warlock like that.
Strange day it seems, but I actually enjoyed these games a lot.
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Abaddon
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 08, 2016 04:21 PM |
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Edited by Abaddon at 16:40, 08 Oct 2016.
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Quote:
It's the way I percieve luck in games in general. Some people are more rational, they percieve their success in games through cumulative skill (which is probably the real case) while I'm more superstitious. I won't deny that I'm not one of those skilled players. But I also think regular people lack enough luck to 'push through things' when the going gets tough and luck is the only answer, which top players appear to have. I don't deny the fact that you can use skill to maximize your results, reduce or even bind RNG into your favor, but at the same time I think this game has too many random elements that have too much of a negative impact on it and thus change the outcome of games based only on a literal 'coin toss' (which lucky people throw in their favor).
Yeah that just seems like a super snowty attitude to have. Basically you're not giving people credit for putting effort into being good while at the same time excuseing yourself from any responsibility in any negative outcome for you since it was supposedly outside of your control. You keep saying that Hearthstone is super rng heavy but fail to ever mention any real examples.
I specifically said which minions have a big rng impact on the game.
Juggler, Tuskarr, Yogg and Flamewaker.
With the nerf Tuskarr can finally no longer win you the game on turn 3 and has become significantly more manageable.
While the nerf to Yogg still has the potential to win you the game it has become significantly more unlikely so that leaves us with 2 minions and 1 spell (Arcane missiles). I'd say that is acceptable especially since it is always abundantly clear when you'll be playing against a Flamewaker deck, which means you'll be mulliganing for answers for it anyway or at the very least try to set up your board in such a way that it can most likely survive a flamewaker turn.
The same is true for knifejuggler a card that only really sees play in Zoo these days and whenever you face a warlock you should always mulligan for a zoo matchup. Which means you're looking for early aoe and spotremoval or doomsayer, all cards which are good in a vacuum against zoo no matter what their two/or one drop of choice is. That doesn't mean you won't ever get screwed over by those cards but it does reduce the chance of it happening by a lot.
So care to elaborate on Quote:
I think this game has too many random elements that have too much of a negative impact on it and thus change the outcome of games based only on a literal 'coin toss'
because I really do not see it.
@angelito
That sounds nice. I'll try to post something if I feel like I had a particularly interesting game. However I'd suggest that along with the replay people should link their decklists. Simply because making the best play with what you have is one thing but sometimes you'll be in situations where you have to play in a way to maximize your chances of drawing card X in your deck.
Also about your C'Thun warrior game, overall I'd say you did well but one thing I'd done differently is that on turn 2 he plays Flame Juggler into your Waraxe (which is fine if he had not had portal, he needs to get through the charges somehow eventhough veco is correct portal would most certainly have been a better play) and you choose to bash it rather than to just clear it with your axe.
I'd say that's wrong for 2 reasons.
1. If you use your weapon charge that'll leave you with the mana to hero power and when you play any form of control warrior you should try to find a window to hero power as often as possible. Oftentimes you'll have turns with a lot of mana floating since your deck is normally very slow (the C'Thun variant a little bit less since it can actually curve out with minions occasionally) so then you can fit in a heropower+spell but since you can only hero power once a turn its more beneficial to try to get a heropower activation in whenever feasible. Basically you would have gained 2 life by heropowering which doesn't sound like much but if you manage to find room for more heropowers over the course of the game you suddenly end up with and extra 6 to 10 life which can really make a difference in a matchup.
2. The waraxe is a perfectly fine answer to any 2-3 minion. You're basically getting maximum value so you should take your chance to get the clean kill. This has the benefit of leaving the Bash in your hand which can either help you take down a minion with 6 health (like a potential water elemental on turn 4) together with your last charge or help you cleanly kill a Ethereal Conjurer/Manawyrm hiding behind some Mirror Images.
Otherwise I'd say you played well and while the Brand+C'Thun is always great to pull off and very flashy you were in firm control of that game and would have regardless of him removing Bran.
As a sidenote I'd probably try to find a replacement for Skarram Cultist but I don't know your decklist.
@Ereinion
Yeah you ran into a Renolock while it's a lot rarer to see these days it's a well known deck in Hearthstone. It's fun and highly customizeable as most Reno decks are. The list I linked you is just an example, some run Dragons as their wincondition instead of N'zoth, some do the standard goodstuff with Jaraxxus etc. etc.
I believe the main reason why we don't see it a lot anymore is because of the very strong early game of Shaman, Hunter and Tempo mage which force you to have answers immediately or take so much damage you'll basically be dead in the long run and reno decks don't do great in consistently finding their early game removal.
But its very strong against midrange decks and strong vs control assuming you dont push yourself too far into fatigue.
When playing against them the trick is figure out that you're playing against a Renowarlock early (stuff like them tapping on turn two with no turn 1 play, them playing something like ooze or Earthen Ring Farseer) and then deciding on whether you can kill them by turn 6/7 or not. So the plan would be to pressure them as much as possible so they don't get to use their heropower which reduces the chances of them finding reno in time. You shouldn't play for the board too much unless you find superbeneficial trades, again because you want to beat him to death as soon as possible.
If your hand/deck is just really bad at applying pressure it's going to be a painful match for you because your opponent is basically drawing 2 cards a turn which is very hard to go even with. Try not to trade 1 for 1 too much because that sets you behind further if you have big aoe cards try to squeeze as much value as you can out of them because you need to negate his cardadvantage somehow.
Also try to think about the max amount your deck is capable of doing. So if you're mage you should try to get alteast something like double fireball+spellower or double fireball frostbolt (since any smart Renolock player will reno before being in double fireball range) and try to catch him off guard because he didn't reno early enough.
If your deck can't pressure or burst, well that's going to be a very though matchup for you no matter what you do.
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