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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 257 pages long: 1 30 60 90 120 150 180 ... 194 195 196 197 198 ... 210 240 257 · «PREV / NEXT»
P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 31, 2016 06:45 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 20:04, 31 May 2016.

bloodsucker said:
Is it some conflict in my installation or Neela is again with scholar? Are you sure you wouldn't like to be able to make her forget it? Or Loynis, Learning? If it costs a bunch of money and some skill levels in an evolved hero, I don't see a problem with it. But if it allows you to correct every stupid building mistake and even save skill points in the way, I do.
Sorry if I sound presumptous but I think my silly conditions are the best way to acchive the last resource solution I believe the market should be.


Sounds reasonable to me, its also ok if you lose 1 skillpoint (AT/DEF/POW/KNO), random skill doesn't sound very like a gain at all, its same roulette again, For me its reasonable just to forget the skill, easy explained: it is a bigger nerf imho:
*you need a new levelup (means: loss of movement points to get to monster, fight the monsters, also the way back to market if the new skill also sucks, the new levelup itself means likely another 50/50 to get something useful chance depending on your 112 points)

Maurice said:
How about making Market of Time to ...

... allow each visiting Hero to only make use of it once;
... erase just one skill;
... give one random (but available and allowed, just not the one ditched) skill in return;

Would that work?


For me the most useful solution is a level dependant price lets say: ~200 Gold per Herolevel for unlearning one skill. Additional: lose all movementpoints for that day. Market can't be reused the same day.

As I said before, the impact on PvP even if MoT is allowed anywhere is quite low. Since most maps are done in month 2-3 at max no matter what skills u use. Even if it is a PvE only feature, it's just a "comfort function" to me, like not learning skills from witchhuts.

I would also go further and maybe put in a object to relearn AT/DEF/POW/KNO -> 2 for 1 at least in that case useless hero classes like witches got some use

phoenix4ever said:
Regarding skills I actually had a little idea:
Learning in it's current state does'nt do more than reach the next level faster. Learning should have it's own skill slot (9th slot) so all heroes can learn Learning when and if they wan't without wasting a skill. Or Learning could just be made better and actually do something...


Learning wouldn't do much if you gain just 1 additional skill since learning itself is 1 skill. basic+advanced = 1 additional skillslot, expert = 2 additional skillslots (+1 gain in total), with speciality (Kinkeria) = 3 slots on expert or (+2 gain in total) in addition to the experience gain. Before anyone states; this would be overpowered... Kinkeria as witch would need this anyways I stated the reasons here and why witch hero class is the most useless in game: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=39830&PID=1364958#focus (lil sumup: usless levelup points, only lvl3 mageguild, most useless secondary skill gains in whole game)


A short sumup of my thoughts:
-witchhut:
*skills can be learned (yes/no option), since you already use a scout hero to scan the hut before entering with main hero, no much gain/prevention it's just a comfort function to me (its a buff for maybe 10 movement points once for one hero since you can send you main directly) (AI could be buffed by this too for not taking useless skills via yes/no option)

-university:
*forbidden skills may be learned there too (fire magic for rangers etc.) since witchhuts can teach forbidden skills aswell

-market of time:
*you can forget a skill there
*price: 200g per herolevel (or solid 2000g)
*you also lose 1 point of AT/DEF/POW/KNO each time you lose a skill, dependant on same chance of your levelup chance for these points
*lose all movementpoints for that day
*only useable once per day

-learning:
*as addition to experience gain: gain another skillslot
*basic+advanced: gain 1 additional skillslot (+0 gain since learning already is a skill)
*expert: gain 2 additional skillslots (+1 gain since learning already is a skill)
*as special (Kinkeria): up to 3 additional skillslots on expert (+2 gain since learning already is a skill)

-scholar:
*teach spell (lvl1+2 basic), (lvl3 advanced), (lvl4 expert) to other heros.
*as special (I would rewrite Alamar since Jeddite already got Resurrection): teach up to lvl5 skills.
*as addition: each hero levelup you got a small chance to learn a new spell up to same level you can teach them (level of skill still random) (basic:20%,advanced:30%,expert:40%) for Alamar as special (basic:50%,advanced:63%,expert:75%) (percentages need testing)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 31, 2016 07:47 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:59, 31 May 2016.

@P4R4D0X0N You said before you wanted the MoT to be unavailable in random maps, do I read you right when I understand you no longer deffend that?
I don't agree with raizing prices, to forget a bad starting skill shouldn't be possibly cheaper then to forget the one in the last slot.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 31, 2016 08:13 PM

I wont argue about PvE/PvP, since I don't play pvp in heros I think HotA is much more into this than me. But actually I can't imagine a big change for MoT at all

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 31, 2016 08:36 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 20:52, 31 May 2016.

@Paradoxon You have some interesting ideas mate.
About Learning something should definitely be done about it, but giving 2-3 additional skill slots would make it extremely good imo.
The concept of Learning was to level up faster, so I think the skill should stick to that or maybe give a few stat points when leveling up Learning...
I think the best thing to do about Witch Huts is a yes/no choice and as mentioned ai could also benefit from it, like it would choose skills at universities.

EDIT: With a Yes/no for Witch Huts, Leadership and Necromancy could also be added to Witch Huts, giving more possibilities.
A yes/no for Scholars would also be nice, it's so annoying when they block stuff and force you to pick a bad skill.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 31, 2016 09:40 PM
Edited by Maurice at 21:41, 31 May 2016.

How about this for Learning:

- Allows you to gain skills for free at the University (no Gold cost anymore);
- Allows you to decline Witch Hut offers;
- Allows you to upgrade existing skills at Witch Huts and Universities from Basic to Advanced, from Advanced to Expert (but just once for each skill at a given Witch Hut or University);

On top of what the skill already does.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 31, 2016 10:26 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:12, 31 May 2016.

Maurice said:
How about this for Learning:

- Allows you to gain skills for free at the University (no Gold cost anymore);
- Allows you to decline Witch Hut offers;
- Allows you to upgrade existing skills at Witch Huts and Universities from Basic to Advanced, from Advanced to Expert (but just once for each skill at a given Witch Hut or University);

On top of what the skill already does.


Sounds good Maurice, but allow me to comment on this:
- Allows you to decline Witch Hut offers
I think everyone should be able to decline skills from Witch Huts and Scholars, not just those with Learning.

Only problem with this new Learning is heroes staying at home, defending a town probably won't benefit from the above at all and when all skills are filled they won't have gained anything, except maybe saved a few gold and learned skills faster than they normally would.

EDIT: The things about University, would they also apply to Confluxes Magic University?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 31, 2016 10:28 PM

In short, everyone wants wog.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 31, 2016 10:44 PM

Well I like Learning II from WoG, but should probably only be 50/100/150 xp per day.
I also like Mysticism I where it gives 10%/20%/30% mana back each day. (Don't like the other stuff Mysticism I does)

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 31, 2016 11:23 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 23:25, 31 May 2016.

Maurice said:
How about this for Learning:

- Allows you to gain skills for free at the University (no Gold cost anymore);
- Allows you to decline Witch Hut offers;
- Allows you to upgrade existing skills at Witch Huts and Universities from Basic to Advanced, from Advanced to Expert (but just once for each skill at a given Witch Hut or University);

On top of what the skill already does.


Imho it sounds too conditional again to me, same problem that eagle eye got atm...

Talking about the devil... I stated here some suggestions some time back: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=17248&PID=1327022#focus

rewritten version:
-eagle eye.
*Basic: gives your hero a 50% chance to learn any 1st or 2nd level spell used in combat it also backfires enemy damage spells (50% chance random enemy gets hit by own spell)
*Advanced: gives your hero a 75% chance to learn any spell up to 3rd level used in combat and backfires enemy damage spells (62% chance random enemy gets hit by own spell), prevents enemy from casting mind spells (20% chance)
*Expert: gives your hero a 100% chance to learn any spell up to 4th level used in combat and backfires enemy damage spells (75% chance random enemy gets hit by own spell), prevents enemy from casting mind spells (33% chance), ??prevent enemy from casting mass-spells (100%)??

As for Mysticism: "gain +x% of maximum mana per day" is much better than a value. 10%/20%/30% even if its low compared to 100% from 3 treasure artifacts you only put in before you end your turn.

Salamandre said:
In short, everyone wants wog.


Not really, WoG is chunky, bad coded and crashes damn often, also the balance is quite "special". Some features are good imho, some damn overpowered, and I really miss the G maps.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 31, 2016 11:23 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Sounds good Maurice, but allow me to comment on this:
- Allows you to decline Witch Hut offers
I think everyone should be able to decline skills from Witch Huts and Scholars, not just those with Learning.


I know you want that, but by giving it to just Learning, you give Heroes with that skill an edge over Heroes who don't have it; it adds some extra value to the skill.

Quote:
EDIT: The things about University, would they also apply to Confluxes Magic University?


Of course.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 31, 2016 11:32 PM

Maurice said:


Quote:
EDIT: The things about University, would they also apply to Confluxes Magic University?


Of course.

Kalt is happy, free magic schools from Magic University, all because of that stupid Learning.  
Sorry, I'll be serious now.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 31, 2016 11:36 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 15:01, 01 Jun 2016.

phoenix4ever said:
Well I like Learning II from WoG, but should probably only be 50/100/150 xp per day.
Oh boy, you play worst then I ever imagined.
100/200/300 is already insignificant, any fisrt day battle gives you more then 300 exp; for me to be worth wasting one of eight slots plus 2 skill points in the time I take to control a map, it would have to be at least 125/250/500 and that's for heroes that always remain in town.

Salamandre said:
In short, everyone wants wog.

I don't get you, Wog is a platform, HotA is a mod. As far as I know HotA is as much WoG as any of your maps.
It's more like lobbying for and against the "Show Events" in SoD Mod or the Helm in Ice-Arrow then about wanting WoG.
I've been critical of HotA's close code position on ethical grounds before but after reading 10 pages of this thread I may get very solidary with someone that doesn't want others messing around with their stuff and I believe I recall you using the word Honor about people editing your maps.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 01, 2016 12:02 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 00:04, 01 Jun 2016.

Well thanks for the kind words Bloodsucker.
Actually I have never tried WoG, so I don't really know, but 300 free xp every day sounds like a lot to me. Maybe not so much for main hero, but sounds good for scouts and town defenders.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 01, 2016 02:22 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 06:25, 01 Jun 2016.

Then is your math that is bad. Lets see, if a magic hero starts with basic wisdom and basic learning you need to level him up to at least level 5 to get 300 and that means you are already needing more then 1500 xp(so around a week) for each level. If you just have to secure a town for one or two weeks you will be better if just you use all that xp to imediatly get expert Earth, for instance. OTOH if you take several weeks to be able to move on, 300 is quite reasonable.
So, if you feel it is too much I must conclude you are taking even more time then that.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 01, 2016 08:12 AM

As I already said, I have never actually tried wog, so maybe 100/200/300 is fine. But it is the only skill that makes you level up without doing anything, that is something.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 01, 2016 02:34 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 15:40, 01 Jun 2016.

I got it. So I did the math to demonstrate you why to waste 2 or 3 skill levels to gain the amazing opportunity of learning 150 xp a day and so advance to the next level in ten days is not such a bargain, unless your progress on map is EXTREMELLY slow.

P.S. I'm so kind as to bother to explain to you over and over again why some of your purposals weren't well thought just to hear something like "if I write Chimp on my ballot is my opinion and it must count as any informed vote" in return. You are the one being unpolite here.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 01, 2016 05:52 PM

What?, I don't understand you at all.
We have had many good debates I think, but this time you completely lost me. Also where did the friendly tone go?  

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 01, 2016 07:21 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:35, 01 Jun 2016.

Well, you purpose something like "I like Learning II from WoG, but should probably only be 50/100/150 xp per day." I take your opinion seriously and comment you have to be a much worst player then I ever imagined cause I bother to do some mental exercise and can see for that to be profitable you need to progress really slow. Instead of hearing what I'm saying, you get offended and awser this: "Actually I have never tried WoG, so I don't really know, but 300 free xp every day sounds like a lot to me" and I have to repeat a second class math exercise twice cause you didn't bother to think about it and I'm still unsure if you got it the last.
Maurice makes a purposal and asks if it can work, I identify a problem and explain why I think it can't. Maurice understands what I'm saying and never asks about it again, you OTOH reinterate the purposal twice so I have to object two more times. I ask: you still didn't got it, did you? and explain on more time, you get touchy but untill now I'm not sure if you truly understood what I said.
The number of times you have purposed something you never bother to think about for a minute and then deffend your position with ignorant rants to finalize with an argument so cooked as "starting skills could'nt be removed, that way heroes would'nt 'loose their identity'" or a pearl like: it's my opinion" (I think it's because you don't want to lose 'face' but instead you strike me like an idiot) is astonishing.
You ask where the friendly tone went? Maybe to the same place where respectfull reading and toughtfull posting already are.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 01, 2016 08:33 PM

Wow and good day to you too sir!
I think you are the one that does'nt understand anything.
Seems like you really misunderstood everything I said.
Probably best we just end it here.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 01, 2016 10:31 PM

Free  exp every day, if not dynamic (ie like on Conquistador mod where 10% of current experience is given daily for free) is a bad idea imo, and will satisfy no one, after a while. Even 500 exp daily will look great day 1-7 but after that, you will regret to have a slot occupied and returning so little.

For me, the best use of learning is the wog usage 50% chance of giving an extra skill upon level up.

Or, for those willing to extend the game, modify learning to allow those with Expert to share % of their experience with others. This would open new possibilities and create more interesting opportunities about secondary heroes purposes.
____________
All my Era II mods

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