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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 01:36 PM |
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It is indeed simple to see why, since it makes the most sense to have different threads for each discussion at the HotA forums because HotA is all that is discussed there.
But on this forum and sub-forum many different projects and maps are discussed.
The most well organized forums that I've frequent over the years always follow the rule of one thread per topic, otherwise chaos ensues. This is why even though there are multiple HotA threads, everyone uses this one - it just makes the most sense and is the easiest.
Otherwise half the sub-forum will be HotA threads, and no one will know where to post, since most discussions are fluid and flow from one element to another. Not to mention the topics of the other projects will get buried.
I'm sure HotA team has its own official channels for news which people can use for announcements if they want only that, but this thread is more valuable because people can discuss the updates and share the hype and excitement (and yes, dreams) with each other.
You know, the whole point of a community and a forum.
And if people stop telling others what they can and can't discuss, I'm sure the bulk of the posts will be gone, so you won't have the problem of sifting through too many posts for the updates (though even then you just have to scan the pages for the HotA team usernames, if you do really care only about the updates).
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 07:19 PM |
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verynice said:
fred79 said:
i'm not going to go back through all the spam posted here to try and find where/if the HotA team wished a seperate thread for wishes/suggestions.
There is a very big difference between discussing balance/design and throwing out wishful suggestions.
If the HotA team is as deeply offended by this discussion, as you seem to imply, all they have to do is let people know and it will stop. They don't need random forum members to preemptively defend them.
Either way, there should be a separate HotA news/announcement thread so people can easily follow development news instead of having important dev posts scattered among general discussion.
Yeah, I agree on that. Thats why in most forums there are sticky threads that are closed for this reason, where just certain members can post their stuff and 99% of the time the thread is closed so nobody can post there.
@wind-falcon: Yeah some sub forum would be better imho. While here is a big conglomerate of VCMI, WoG, HotA, personal projects, SoD, Era, AB....
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skaniol
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 15, 2017 08:09 PM |
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Edited by skaniol at 20:10, 15 Feb 2017.
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Janosiczek said:
Hello
Any news about upadate ?
I don't think so. The last news are from February 06, both [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=39830&PID=1412842#focus]here[/url] and on [url=https://vk.com/h3hota]VKontakte[/url].
fred79 said:
i'm not going to go back through all the spam posted here to try and find where/if the HotA team wished a seperate thread for wishes/suggestions. all i know, is that one was created, because anyone trying to find ANY substance regarding the actual HotA team's release or content, would have to sift through a gazillion pages of this stuff.
I am a member of this forum since 3 days ago, yet I already figured out how to find the stuff that I need... If you are only interested in posts from the hota crew, then why don't you search for their posts? Search posts by [url=http://heroescommunity.com/search.php3?q=&UserName=nik312&date=&sort1=posts&sort2=new1st&shorten=10000&action=search]nik312[/url] or [url=http://heroescommunity.com/search.php3?q=&UserName=Docent_Picolan&date=&sort1=posts&sort2=new1st&shorten=10000&action=search]Docent_Picolan[/url], for example. I believe the particular place that you are talking about is [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=39830&PID=1349650#focus]here[/url] or [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=39830&PID=1332806#focus]here[/url]. Add them to your bookmarks. Problem solved. The discussions relating to their posts happen right after they post them, obviously. You can't expect all discussions in such general thread to be about the news. The rest of my post isn't related to the news, so feel free to ignore it.
I am just curious about the concept of the forced secondary skills on us. Do you think that it's an essential part of the game and thus should stay this way in HotA? It's one of the most annoying design decisions by NWC to me. Sometimes I go to great lengths in order to avoid wasting skill slots. Wouldn't it be better if you could reject skills offered in Huts, by Scholars or when you level up? I mean like this:
The only difference between these two being that the Scholar disappears like usual, although you didn't learn anything.
When it comes to gaining levels, it could be like this:
It's the same Rejection button that I was talking about earlier, but available to all heroes (not only the ones having Learning).
In the first case there is an offer to upgrade or to acquire a new skill. You can select any of the two skills like usual, but if you reject - a regular hero will just pick the Expert Wisdom by default, while a hero who has at least Basic Learning will be offered 2 skills from a different skill tree one more time (one upgrade + 1 basic). At Advanced/Expert Learning you could see a 3rd/4th pair of skills on rejections. The rejection of the last pair works like on a regular hero - you pick the upgrade (1st skill in last pair) by default.
The second case is more interesting. It involves an offer of 2 new skills at Basic. A regular hero rejecting the skills will learn nothing, while a hero with Learning can see a 2nd/3rd/4th pair of skills before deciding whether to learn something or nothing. The question is what should happen on the last rejection? You can either change the skill tree, so the next time you level up you'll be offered 2 different skills, or you could keep it, so a hero without learning will be stuck at the same 2 skills. His options would be to pick one of them or to learn a different skill by other means.
IMHO, I see nothing bad if the players can reject the learning of skills. The fact that you don't learn a new skill for free is a drawback enough. What do you think? Does this bother other players or it's just me?
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 08:47 PM |
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This is just cheating.
Basically instead of balancing out skills this would effectively mean deactivating the crap skills.
What is more this will level out the difference between hero classes (in terms of skill learning probability) which will have an impact on balance.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted February 15, 2017 09:00 PM |
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Funny thing that image shows.
When gaining Defense, you get magical skills. When gaining Spell Power, you get diplomacy and tactics.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 11:33 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 23:34, 15 Feb 2017.
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skaniol said:
I am just curious about the concept of the forced secondary skills on us. Do you think that it's an essential part of the game and thus should stay this way in HotA? It's one of the most annoying design decisions by NWC to me. Sometimes I go to great lengths in order to avoid wasting skill slots. Wouldn't it be better if you could reject skills offered in Huts, by Scholars or when you level up? I mean like this:
The only difference between these two being that the Scholar disappears like usual, although you didn't learn anything.
For the Witch Hut I'm in favour, for the Scholar, they always have a backup primary skill and/or spell in case all your slot are full, so choosing between one of the three options would seem more natural than just rejecting the skill outright.
gatecrasher said:
This is just cheating.
Basically instead of balancing out skills this would effectively mean deactivating the crap skills.
What is more this will level out the difference between hero classes (in terms of skill learning probability) which will have an impact on balance.
Agree on point one, disagree on point two. See, the higher you go, the more difficult it is to attain the next level, so it's a choice, do you take skill A, skill B, or skip it and hope you get a decent skill next time, with there being no guarantee you will. As for impacting the balance, really? The balance between players, or the balance between skills?
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skaniol
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 15, 2017 11:49 PM |
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gatecrasher said:
...
Can you be a bit more specific, please? Which part would be cheating and why? Do you mean the rejection of the Witch and the Scholar is cheating, or perhaps the rejection of skills on a regular level up, or maybe you mean the extra offers shown by the Learning secondary skill?
I don't think that the rejection of the Witches and the Scholars would be game breaking. You can still visit them by Heroes, who have all 8 slots occupied, or by secondary heroes, which you don't care about that much, or you could do a save->load in SP. I just find it way more convenient when you can visit by any hero.
The extra offers to Learning Experts could water down the differences between the classes, but that's just a buff to the Learning skill and it shouldn't touch the primary skills of the classes. I seriously doubt that people will start picking Learning just because you are offered better secondary skills. Most people say that they already get the skills that they need anyway. Others may consider it, though, if they desire a certain skill which is rare for their class, but only if Learning had some other buffs.
If you mean that the rejection of skills on a level gain by a regular hero is cheating - well, it depends. Like I said, it can be done to offer you different skills every time, but it can also be locked to the same two skills. In that case it's up to the player whether he wants to freeze his skill progression or to "waste" a slot. I am sure that most players will pick one of the skills anyway, unless it's the last slot and they need some essential skill like Logistics/Earth/Air and they hope to get it by a Witch/University/etc.. When you give more options to the players, you offer them more power to do good or bad decisions. Is this wrong? The random element is still present. It's just less annoying.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2017 01:13 AM |
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No - with how skills are now - the random/chance effect (which is intended) would be gone. There won't be more choice as there are must-have skills and avoid-at-all-cost skills. If skills were balanced out to be more or less equally worthwhile you'd have more to choose from but the "random/chance" effect would be gone either.
You'd always get a pretty much ideal hero (regardless of hero class) which is not what the original game developers had in mind. The game was not desgned to be the least possible annoying.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2017 02:24 AM |
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I like the witch hut option... I don't see the reason why you should listen to something you don't want to learn at all.
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 16, 2017 03:12 AM |
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I've always been for being able to reject Witch Hut and Scholar skill offers. Having a choice between a skill or a stat for the Scholar is a great idea imo.
The rejection of skills on level up is more dubious. Its just a band-aid for a myriad of broken systems, it won't fix the underlying problems of the game.
Though it can be interesting, if it is implemented that when you reject the skill advancement, you also pass up on the +1 stat that comes with a level up. This would make it a risk vs. reward thing, and would make hero development have a new interesting choice -> pick unwanted skills, or risk gimping your hero both stats wise (especially early on where the first 10 levels are the most important stats wise for the hero class) and skill wise (since you will still be gaining a level). This means that that you can potentially have both less stats and less advanced skills when you come across enemy heroes, if you want a perfect skill set and the RNG is not favorable. If not, the game either stays relatively the same, or both main heroes will have lost a couple of levels, but have perfect skills, which is not such a huge change from what we have now anyway and might make the whole thing even more boring and a no brainer than it already is. In the end the only thing that this would really make a difference in is if you really like a hero you have to be your main, now you have more of a guarantee that you can use him/her, and not have bad skill choices presented to you and abandon him/her for the second best option.
But even losing the +1 stat is not that severe a penalty, since because of artifacts and +stat map objects, all heroes start looking relatively the same after a point, so it depends on the size and properties of the map how balanced this is.
Anyway, its definitely an interesting idea that if handled properly might spice up the game and still be true to its spirit, but we can't know in advance only talking about it, heavy testing is required for a change of this kind, and if going that route, fixing the problem of skill, magic, and hero class balance directly makes more sense, so this change is not worth to waste time on (at least not yet anyway).
I don't know if HotA team has their own private versions and distribute it in a limited manner to test stuff like this and then decide what to put in the official release or not. A playground of this kind (similar to a PTR server for online games) is also something interesting to think about.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 16, 2017 07:24 AM |
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One thing I would like to see is being able to pick, as well as one or two new skills, any one of the skills in which you're at basic or advanced levels.
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elaf
Adventuring Hero
viajeinterminable.com
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posted February 16, 2017 12:54 PM |
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And that if instead of so much, the game puts the skill instead of giving you a choice when you level up?
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skaniol
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 16, 2017 05:49 PM |
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MattII said:
For the Witch Hut I'm in favour, for the Scholar, they always have a backup primary skill and/or spell in case all your slot are full, so choosing between one of the three options would seem more natural than just rejecting the skill outright.
Wind_Falcon said:
I've always been for being able to reject Witch Hut and Scholar skill offers. Having a choice between a skill or a stat for the Scholar is a great idea imo.
You mean like this?
Yeah, that's not bad either. You could select any of the two, while rejection could give you a random spell.
gatecrasher said:
No - with how skills are now - the random/chance effect (which is intended) would be gone. There won't be more choice as there are must-have skills and avoid-at-all-cost skills.
I am not sure about that. You just state how it could be, but not why it would be this way. Just because there are OP skills that most players want, it doesn't mean that you could always collect them. You'll be forced to pick up lesser skills in order to progress. Besides, most heroes are already balanced by their suboptimal secondary starting skills and a good hero class will still progress faster than a hero class having lower chance to acquire the better skills. It makes sense that with more effort everyone should be able to learn everything.
Quote:
You'd always get a pretty much ideal hero (regardless of hero class) which is not what the original game developers had in mind.
Can you prove that? Getting the perfect 8 skills is a lot less common than you think. Let's say that your ideal hero has the following 8 skills:
Logistics, Earth Magic, Air Magic, Armorer, Offense, Leadership, Tactics, Wisdom
Now start a new game, open up a tool like the Level-Up Oracle and try to acquire the perfect 8 skills on any hero who doesn't already have a wasted slot due to starting skills. Even when you know that you always get offered certain skills at certain levels (like Magic schools and Wisdom), it's still very common to end up choosing between 2 lesser skills.
E.g., I just picked Crag Hack and I get Offense or Luck, so I pick Offense. Then I get to choose between Navigation or Diplomacy. What am I supposed to do now? Neither of them is among my 8 ideal skills. Even if I could turn them down in order to not waste a slot, my Crag Hack hero would be locked to Expert Offense and I'll be getting Navigation and Diplomacy on every level up, until I find a Hut or University containing one of my 8 perfect skills (which isn't guaranteed at all). So, if I don't pick a lesser skill, it's a gamble and my progress would be hindered. Do you believe that rejecting skills in order to build the ideal hero would always be a winning strategy?
In the same game I picked the beastmaster Tazar and he got all the perfect skills without any need to reject. The battle mage Gundula did the same. The ranger Mephala failed at Level 14. I had to choose between Ballistics and Luck, but I haven't learned yet Logistics, Air, Offense. On a different skill tree she failed at level 17: Pathfinding or Resistance (lack of Logistics + Air). On many occasions you'll be forced to pick a skill, or you risk staying with 5-6 skills for a long time, while your opponent may meet you with 2 extra weaker skills, but they'll give him an edge. On the other hand, the rejection would be very handy if you were lucky to have a useful Hut, university or a Conflux, because you could still keep fighting and leveling your main hero until you reach them.
Quote:
In the end the only thing that this would really make a difference in is if you really like a hero you have to be your main, now you have more of a guarantee that you can use him/her, and not have bad skill choices presented to you and abandon him/her for the second best option.
Yes, that's the point. It really sucks to invest a lot of effort in leveling up a certain hero, only to be served a nice surprise like Mysticism or Learning for your last skill-slot.
The option to reject replaces a part of the random luck element with a gambling element. IDK about you guys, but I prefer more of a gambling compared to pure luck based events like the Month of a creature X. If you are really into that, perhaps some level-ups could be an automatic new skill. The hero class will have more impact, but what about the player's skill?
MattII said:
One thing I would like to see is being able to pick, as well as one or two new skills, any one of the skills in which you're at basic or advanced levels.
This happens when you have all 8 slots already occupied. Do you mean that you want this earlier? I think this could be done if there was a way to lock/unlock our unoccupied skill slots by clicking on any of them. This way we won't acquire any new s.skills while they are locked. It's an alternative to rejection.
Anyway, do you think that at least a hero with Learning s.skill should be able to reject and to get more offers?
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2017 07:20 PM |
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And btw. you CAN'T trade spellscrolls on regular blackmarkets on the map you really need an artifact merchant for that. I've checked it on a random map. So you need thw 10000 anyway.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 16, 2017 09:51 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:53, 16 Feb 2017.
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skaniol said:
You mean like this?
Yeah, that's not bad either. You could select any of the two, while rejection could give you a random spell.
That is more-or-less what I was suggesting.
Quote:
This happens when you have all 8 slots already occupied. Do you mean that you want this earlier?
Yes.
Quote:
I think this could be done if there was a way to lock/unlock our unoccupied skill slots by clicking on any of them. This way we won't acquire any new s.skills while they are locked. It's an alternative to rejection.
Hm, that wasn't the way I was hoping it would be done.
Quote:
Anyway, do you think that at least a hero with Learning s.skill should be able to reject and to get more offers?
No, but I feel it should cover Learning Stones and Treasure Chests as well as boosting it from +5/10/15% to something more like +10/20/30% or higher.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2017 10:46 PM |
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@skaniol lol lol lol. Of course the "ideal" hero is not common and it's not supposed to be. Thanks for arguing in favour of my points.
Diplomacy not amongst ideal skills ...lol. Well, maybe not for main.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 16, 2017 11:13 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:21, 16 Feb 2017.
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P4R4D0X0N said:
I like the witch hut option... I don't see the reason why you should listen to something you don't want to learn at all.
She teaches you for HER own interest, like the message says. If you're afraid to listen, no one forces you.
____________
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skaniol
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 17, 2017 04:20 AM |
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MattII said:
Hm, that wasn't the way I was hoping it would be done.
Well, that's a manual way to trigger that on the next level-up, and also to protect your slots from Witches and Scholars.
Perhaps you want it to be triggered randomly? Personally, I am against that. It would increase the random element even more because it forces you to upgrade, and this gets you closer to having all your skills at Expert. We all know what happens then -> you have to get one of the next two offered skills, even when both are unneeded.
Quote:
as well as boosting it from +5/10/15% to something more like +10/20/30% or higher.
I don't want to start a debate about what is the proper percentage for the boost of the learning skill. I am sure that the players on the HotA team can figure it out better than me. Yet I believe it should be way above that. Even 10 times more. Just look at the [url=http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Experience]XP table[/url] and multiply the XP on a given level by 1.3 to see the advantage of the Expert Learner in levels, when the boost is 30%. It's insignificantly small. Why waste a skill slot for a 1 level advantage?
gatecrasher said:
@skaniol lol lol lol. Of course the "ideal" hero is not common and it's not supposed to be. Thanks for arguing in favour of my points.
Uh oh, you got me there! Stupid me... You win! gg
Quote:
Diplomacy not amongst ideal skills ...lol. Well, maybe not for main.
Nah, I would say Diplomacy is really nothing like an ideal skill. It's actually so bad that you'll often see people in competitions agreeing to never use such a humiliating skill. It has a stupid dove on its icon representing peace. Peace?! Who needs peace?! Real men go to War. What about its effect? It allows you to surrender... Real men never surrender! Only the opposite of real men would do that. Totally weak and useless. It will never make it possible to collect an unstoppable army in no time like some other skills do - the bald eagle, for example. Wise players would pick the bald eagle instead of that surrendering albino dove.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 17, 2017 04:44 AM |
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skaniol said:
Well, that's a manual way to trigger that on the next level-up, and also to protect your slots from Witches and Scholars.
Perhaps you want it to be triggered randomly? Personally, I am against that. It would increase the random element even more because it forces you to upgrade, and this gets you closer to having all your skills at Expert. We all know what happens then -> you have to get one of the next two offered skills, even when both are unneeded.
Well to take the example, I would like, on the next level-up to be able to choose from, 1 new skill, Expert Tactics, Advanced Air Magic or Advanced Logistics, all on the same page.
Quote:
I don't want to start a debate about what is the proper percentage for the boost of the learning skill. I am sure that the players on the HotA team can figure it out better than me. Yet I believe it should be way above that. Even 10 times more. Just look at the XP table and multiply the XP on a given level by 1.3 to see the advantage of the Expert Learner in levels, when the boost is 30%. It's insignificantly small. Why waste a skill slot for a 1 level advantage?
I just gave those as examples, not suggestions.
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noir72
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 17, 2017 09:56 AM |
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Thank you for all the great work you put into this project!
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This Super Thread is pages long: 
