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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Super Thread is 548 pages long: 1 70 140 ... 145 146 147 148 149 ... 210 280 350 420 490 548 · «PREV / NEXT»
ericoz
ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2015 08:02 PM
Edited by ericoz at 20:14, 23 Jul 2015.

P4R4D0X0N said:

This could easiely change, you just need to limit magic schools or wisdom to magic heroes. As counterpart logistic/offense/luck and other stuff to might heroes.


Even if that happened, might heroes would still have the edge. attack/defense are way superior compared to power/knowledge. All might secondary skills are superior, limiting them to the might heroes would just give what they already had and make magic heroes even worse. The gamebreaking spells are low level spells that are all meant to buff/debuff an army. So army is the keyword here. And the best way to buff it is with might primary and secondary skills. Damage spells will NEVER be decent on a PVP/big map situation. That being said, that is IF you get the luck to get them on your magic guild. So the whole magic thing is left to luck, or a low resource/early game/small-medium map. This is the only way a magic hero could ever overpower the might one.

Geez, the only time I ever used damage spells was hit and run armageddon with a fire immunity unit by casting and retreating the hero over and over. And exploiting the dumb AI with Luna and fire wall. Both are an abusive and unfair tactic, banned in multiplayer and it also got removed in HOTA (no more full movement points when re-hiring, no more Luna to hire).

Phoenix, anything can work on a custom map. Other than that, the normal scenario will be your magic hero getting stomped by a might one with 1/3 of your army before you can even spend your spell points. Just take a look on statistics on what are the most used heroes on competitive/multiplayer scene.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 23, 2015 08:12 PM

Well, no. If magic schools and wisdom are limited to magic heroes, bye bye might heroes. This is why balancing was never possible, if you take one thing out, it still sucks but from another perspective now.

Just think about: how a might hero will level without the possibility of ever (magic plains are never placed in random maps)casting any mass spell, how will break guards between zones, this is almost impossible. Then just try any custom map without expert earth or air, you won't make it. Everything in  Heroes III is designed around expert magic schools. Natural fighting skills are still precious but they are a bonus to magic schools.

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ericoz
ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 23, 2015 08:21 PM

Salamandre,by that you mean mass haste and mass slow, right? You don't even need wisdom for those. And I think you're trying to say that expertise in air/earth is what break might heroes.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 23, 2015 08:32 PM

Both magic schools and wisdom. You remove one from might heroes picks, game is over. Not only haste or slow, but resurrect will be gone as well, so how survive in custom maps?

My pick would be to go for stepped leveling, means that magic heroes get access to more powerful variants of each spell every x levels. I designed once such system in wog and magic heroes got quite scary after a time. Sure such changes will always be local, I doubt 5 experienced players will ever agree on what to add or remove.


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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 23, 2015 11:44 PM

Salamandre said:
And this revolutionary map is downloadable at?

Hehe it's still not public, as I am constantly developing it and the texts suck, most of them I wrote several years ago. But hopefully I will be satisfied enough to one day put it out there.
Before I tried to limit many things like artifacts, spells and heroes. Almost everything is available now except for a few heroes, spells and artifacts and the map is more open and unpredictable than before. The map can be played a lot of times and feel different each time. I am curious if people would like the map, so I should put it out there some day...

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ericoz
ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2015 03:41 AM
Edited by ericoz at 19:22, 24 Jul 2015.

I'm not gonna start bragging all over again on how magic SS are weak and bad designed, how some spells need tweaking. I think we all know that from day 1 but I wouldn't mind HOTA never touching these issues and leaving the game the way it is. The chances are if you try to change those they will drastically disrupt the gameplay.

Except some extreme cases like Eagle Eye. If it doesn't get a rework then just remove it from multiplayer/random maps.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted July 25, 2015 12:44 AM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 00:50, 25 Jul 2015.

Warmonger said:
Quote:
As counterpart logistic/offense/luck and other stuff to might heroes.

There are no usable heroes without Logistics, you know?

The issue with magic heroes are not the spells, but constant lack of mana. They simply never get a chance to cast a spell, not matter how powerful they are (not very, in fact).

Magic-oriented heroes worked fine in H5, but in this verison heroes received mana equal to their Knowledge every turn.


Sounds reasonable for me... Managain = Knowledge per turn + complete rewrite for mysticism. Logistic is useful but the chance to get it is quite rare imo.

ericoz said:
P4R4D0X0N said:

This could easiely change, you just need to limit magic schools or wisdom to magic heroes. As counterpart logistic/offense/luck and other stuff to might heroes.


Even if that happened, might heroes would still have the edge. attack/defense are way superior compared to power/knowledge. All might secondary skills are superior, limiting them to the might heroes would just give what they already had and make magic heroes even worse. The gamebreaking spells are low level spells that are all meant to buff/debuff an army. So army is the keyword here. And the best way to buff it is with might primary and secondary skills. Damage spells will NEVER be decent on a PVP/big map situation. That being said, that is IF you get the luck to get them on your magic guild. So the whole magic thing is left to luck, or a low resource/early game/small-medium map. This is the only way a magic hero could ever overpower the might one.

Geez, the only time I ever used damage spells was hit and run armageddon with a fire immunity unit by casting and retreating the hero over and over. And exploiting the dumb AI with Luna and fire wall. Both are an abusive and unfair tactic, banned in multiplayer and it also got removed in HOTA (no more full movement points when re-hiring, no more Luna to hire).

Phoenix, anything can work on a custom map. Other than that, the normal scenario will be your magic hero getting stomped by a might one with 1/3 of your army before you can even spend your spell points. Just take a look on statistics on what are the most used heroes on competitive/multiplayer scene.




I that case the first 10 levels are the only critical for "might vs magic heroes" meaning ~5 points on AT and DEF more for might heroes thats one relic item of AA-Set. Tactics and Spells that are banned are also quite dumb imo. Redesign and rebalance with monthly balance (or balance all two month) over a long periode with tournaments are the key to ensure something like "balance" imo. +an observe Mode. Else it wouldn't happen anyways.

There are much options to buff magic heroes:
-Speciality of magic heroes much stronger
-Managain equal to "Knowledge" skill
-Much more efficiancy for "Power" skill in case of DPS on Spells
-Possibility to cast spells twice or more for magic heroes (depending on Power)
-Wisdom, Elementary schools only for magic heroes
-Removing the random gain of primary skills (one skillpoint every level free to spend) maybe also add a maximum difference between primary skills (max 7 points between AT and DEF or POW and KNOW)
-More DPS on damage spells for magic heroes to compensate the missing damage source (Attack skill)
-Mass-Spells only for magic heroes

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ericoz
ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 25, 2015 01:14 AM

well, I feel that HOTA priority is new content, not balance or change. Kind of pointless arguing about those here.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 25, 2015 10:18 AM

It might just be me, but I don't feel anything should be changed in relation to might and magic heroes. If anything magicheroes should have another statpoint like mightheroes and all mightheroes should start with spellbook.
Eagle Eye, Mysticism and First Aid really need to be better.
But this discussion might be slightly off-topic. HOTA team probably know what should be changed if anything.

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ericoz
ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 26, 2015 07:52 AM
Edited by ericoz at 08:01, 26 Jul 2015.

first aid, mysticism, eagle eye, learning, and sorcery are all garbage. Eagle eye takes the first spot as the worst, then first aid and learning ties in second place. Scholar is also bad but has its uses in a secondary hero... Most SS designed for magic heroes are utter trash. Blows my mind that HOTA is keeping them untouched. But eh, I'm happy with what they made so far.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted July 26, 2015 09:37 AM

Sorcery is good with hero who specially in it. Learning if could works like Enlighment in Heroes 5(bonus stats per level up) it could be good.

About War Machines. I think their secondary skills should raise their stats and even restore them if they are destroyed in battle. Tent could cast Expert Cure, balista more damage per artillery skill, ammo cart strengh all shooters during combat(+4 attack or +2 attack and +2 defense)

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malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted July 27, 2015 12:22 PM

phoenix4ever said:

Eagle Eye, Mysticism and First Aid really need to be better.
Quote:


It s not off topic, it s wrong. Mysticism already have a buff. Eagle eye is useless in MP. First aid mehhh...

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted July 27, 2015 05:49 PM

A little reminder once again:
ideas discussion thread

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looom
looom


Adventuring Hero
Flying High
posted July 27, 2015 06:48 PM

I like the direction of Hota. Nothing major has been touched/changed, well, a new town, but gameplay is still same. Lovely aesthetic changes look very good, for instance, Gog's ranged attack animation. Some sound changes for a Monk's ranged attack, makes it sound more fearsome etc

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 27, 2015 07:02 PM

malax83 said:

It s not off topic, it s wrong. Mysticism already have a buff. Eagle eye is useless in MP. First aid mehhh...


Mysticism was'nt buffed only Scouting? Exactly, Eagle Eye should'nt be useless in multiplayer (or singleplayer) and First Aid should'nt be mehhh.

Sorry I would have answered in the other thread but my phone apparently don't know how to copy the post.

I also love HotA how it is, but would of course always like more.

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malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted July 27, 2015 11:09 PM

phoenix4ever said:
malax83 said:

It s not off topic, it s wrong. Mysticism already have a buff. Eagle eye is useless in MP. First aid mehhh...


Mysticism was'nt buffed only Scouting? Exactly, Eagle Eye should'nt be useless in multiplayer (or singleplayer) and First Aid should'nt be mehhh.



Sorry, i feel you rigth.. Nothing change with mysticism, maybe in last patchs.

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ericoz
ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted July 28, 2015 04:33 AM

Expert mysticism is equivalent to a Mystic Orb of Mana, a treasure. that's just how bad it is.

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kokeeno
kokeeno

Tavern Dweller
posted July 29, 2015 12:19 PM

I've been playing HoTA lately, excellent mod, but I'm having some difficulties with the campaign so I wanted to have a look at the maps with the map editor. How can I do that though? I extracted the h3c file with resedit but whenever I open the h3c with the campaign editor that I have in the root folder I get an error message "0206.h3m has an invalid format version." Do you have to use some other editor? Or how do I extract the h3m files from h3c? Thanks.

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pellish
pellish


Famous Hero
posted July 29, 2015 01:42 PM

kokeeno said:
I've been playing HoTA lately, excellent mod, but I'm having some difficulties with the campaign so I wanted to have a look at the maps with the map editor. How can I do that though? I extracted the h3c file with resedit but whenever I open the h3c with the campaign editor that I have in the root folder I get an error message "0206.h3m has an invalid format version." Do you have to use some other editor? Or how do I extract the h3m files from h3c? Thanks.


I don't think it's possible as of yet. The HotA crew have mentioned a campaign editor in the works but only they can confirm if they're still working on it. You would have to wait for that to be able to look at the maps though.

I have the maps in Russian if you would like to see them though.

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kokeeno
kokeeno

Tavern Dweller
posted July 29, 2015 04:06 PM

pellish said:


I have the maps in Russian if you would like to see them though.


Yes, if you could do that, I'd be grateful.

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