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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Super Thread is 548 pages long: 1 70 140 210 ... 232 233 234 235 236 ... 280 350 420 490 548 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 13, 2017 11:16 PM

Wind_Falcon said:
Skill balance discussions arise because people want more (and more interesting) strategic choices in building their heroes.


No, people want to feel like superman without needing to think outside of the box. It is very rare my main hero gets more than one "unwanted" skills, and all others offer support, and skills like Scholar, Eagle Eye and so on suddenly make sense. Only learning feels like total waste, but that's it.
If you make all skills very good, the strategy won't be added, but reduced, this choice is illusionary, one of the depth of this game is the faculty to adapt on situations you haven't foreseen, just like the random element is part of the addiction.
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Wind_Falcon
Wind_Falcon


Adventuring Hero
posted February 13, 2017 11:28 PM
Edited by Wind_Falcon at 18:42, 14 Feb 2017.

Galaad I agree with you in a general sense.

You can entertain the thought of adding a /crappy/ skill that might very well have a positive effect on your game, depending on the specific situation. The problem is that you can do that ONLY if you haven't bungled all the other skill choices before that. Even then in almost all cases you would want that skill not on your main, but on a throwaway hero instead. So, not a real choice all said and done.

The strategy and making interesting choices comes when you have a myriad of good and varied skills, but are viable in different circumstances. Then you have to identify situations, form overall plans, and make hopefully hard decisions about which set of skills will be best suited for the job at hand (best case scenario in a more nuanced and fluid way than "set of skills A is best for X situation, B for Y" and so fourth, but even that would be better than what we have now).

This is not present in the current game, be it vanilla, HotA or anything else under the sun (not in any meaningful way at the very least), and I agree, still won't be present with virtually all the skill buff suggestions that we have seen over the years.

Hence, the rest of my previous post.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 13, 2017 11:58 PM
Edited by MattII at 23:59, 13 Feb 2017.

Well some skills (Pathfinding and Navigation f.e.) are rather map-dependent, while others (Mysticism f.e.) depend fairly heavily on what type of hero you're trying to build. First Aid and Artillery are reliant on having access to their respective war machines. Therefore, the only thing I can say is that thjere's no hard-and-fast rules about the usefulness of skills. except possibly Learning, which is pretty crap.

One thing I do disagree with however is that it takes a skill to control your war-machines, that's one factor that's always bugged me.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 14, 2017 12:05 AM

Not that I wan't to start a big fight with you Galaad, but I simply can't understand why you think skills should'nt be balanced at all. What is so interesting in always going for the same skills like Logistics, Offense, Tactics, Wisdom, Air Magic, Earth Magic etc.? Why not have choices to make, THAT would make it interesting. Now it's clear what is best between Scholar and Eagle Eye or Intelligence and Mysticism, imagine if you had to make a choice instead of dismissing half the skills because they suck anyway. You might argue that all skills are relevant in certain situations, but are they really?, Learning does'nt do much more than waste a slot, almost as bad is Eagle Eye and First Aid and Mysticism only slighty useful for the very first days of a scenario.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted February 14, 2017 12:33 AM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 00:48, 14 Feb 2017.

Galaad said:
This all skills discussions are always pissing me off, you want all the skills to be like Logistic or Offense? It would be BORING it that was the case.


I want to have variety with agony of choice... But there is literally no choice, there is always a "BEST" for long term choices, thats the main problem. If all skills would be valuable this is something special. But still, this game has a clear "Meta" that dictates... snow anything else but Attack, you don't need Defense when the enemy doesn't retailiate at the same time just after your turn. The result of this system: Magic heroes are nearly useless... witches on fortress for example are bullsnow from start. Perma Wisdom + Spellpower gain, no offense and tons of unplayable secondary skills.

Agony of choice for all skills and we're good imho. I would be okay with 75% good skills, 25% not so good but acceptable skill. Now we got 50% overpowered to good, 50% bad to abysmally poor skills, and inbetween maybe a zone of 25% situational skills -> anyway some tweeks would be nice.

Viable tactics are also quite rare. Since defense is limited while offense isn't in manner of speaking. Same counts for strategies... Limited to a few spells/units/secondary skills in most case. (Starting with Grand Elves for Rampart, shooters for Tower, Pitlords and Demons for Inferno) as some examples, followed up by massive hero gaining and excessive map spamming to gain ressources and stuff fast and early, some towns also may rush, see Stronghold and Fortress tactics. You may play with Diplomacy, maybe "Dracageddon" is an option in very few cases or casual "Offense Over" combined with Expert Air- and or Earthmagic... Never seen a caster build or anything good so far early game except Luna's firewall stacking. Same counts for the balance of towns itself. Imho you can't play anything else but rising demons on "Inferno", the "Armageddon" Spell would be an option with Zydar and Efreet-Sultans but the chance to get the spell are so damn low even for Inferno it's just 10% While "Inferno" spell itself (one most worst spells if you compare damage to mana).

Wind_Falcon said:
Skill balance discussions arise because people want more (and more interesting) strategic choices in building their heroes.

Of course this can't be done in the game as it is, as the mechanics and systems of the game need to support multiple play-styles that are both sufficiently different and relatively equally powerful to each other (or work in a rock-paper-scissors type of fashion in head-to-head).

And we all know (and if you don't competitive players will explain it for n-th time) that there is one best way to play the game, its just a matter of how well each player executes it that counts in the end of the day.

So its either the game stays relatively what it already is (as we all know and love it, flaws and all) and skills remain unbalanced in one form or another, or major systems changes and new mechanics are introduced to allow for new and viable ways to play the game.

This is the biggest shame that games of this type aren't made anymore, or if they are since there is no competition they rely on being the only thing out there so fans won't have a choice but check it out even if its crap (modern Heroes games), and since its crap there is no big inflow and no growth.

Heroes' flaws can't be fixed within the existing games, new games and franchises that aren't bound by previous titles are needed to do things differently and push the envelope further than what late 90s early 00s brought it up to.

I do hope that the experience and know-how that people amass around the various Heroes related projects will one day bear fruit not only in the form of modifications, but people going indie and breaking new ground as well.


I agree... I would love to combine HoMM3 with Guild Wars1 (Skill-, Spell- and PvP-System) I also think HoMM lacks variety and specials for every town. I would like some more unique features like the cannon for "Cove" or the "Necromancy" skill and "Death Ripple" or "Animate Dead" spells for Necropolis, something like "Curses" for Fortress and other stuff for other town.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 14, 2017 03:36 AM

P4R4D0X0N said:
I would be okay with 75% good skills, 25% not so good but acceptable skill. Now we got 50% overpowered to good, 50% bad to abysmally poor skills, and inbetween maybe a zone of 25% situational skills -> anyway some tweeks would be nice.

Viable tactics are also quite rare.

I guess you mostly play MP, right? In custom maps best skills can be quite elusive, like Water instead of Air and Intelligence instead of Offense. And the game is of for almost 20 years, don't you think people would be already sticking to some 'perfect' builds anyway?

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 14, 2017 05:05 AM

bloodsucker said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
I would be okay with 75% good skills, 25% not so good but acceptable skill. Now we got 50% overpowered to good, 50% bad to abysmally poor skills, and inbetween maybe a zone of 25% situational skills -> anyway some tweeks would be nice.

Viable tactics are also quite rare.

I guess you mostly play MP, right? In custom maps best skills can be quite elusive, like Water instead of Air and Intelligence instead of Offense. And the game is of for almost 20 years, don't you think people would be already sticking to some 'perfect' builds anyway?

Some skills are situational. Navigation and Pathfinding f.e. are map-reliant skills, on some maps they're essential, but on others, next to useless.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 14, 2017 05:30 AM

man, i haven't been here as long as some others, but i've seen this same conversation a bazillion times. this is the hota team's thread, guys. not a discussion on what should be what. if you guys did stuff like this in my thread(with how much is OFF-topic here), i'd be calling for executions; screw penalties.

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hippox89
hippox89


Famous Hero
posted February 14, 2017 02:48 PM
Edited by hippox89 at 15:45, 14 Feb 2017.

It can be mentally draining reading the same recurring discussions on old topics, for sure. I hate to think about what negative effects it could have on the crew. Although, I'm sure they must have grown some tough skin to handle most of it. Still, they're just people like the rest of us at the of the day.

Sometimes I think it might be a case of people finding their own ideas so meaningful that they want them in the main thread for more exposure, rather than in the appointed thread for it.

More often than not, though, it's just a rolling snowball effect that gets out of control quickly. At such times, it would be considerate to take further discussions to another thread.

I agree that it can come off as rude behaviour, even if that's not the intention, at all. But we should all at least strive to better understand the crew's vision and scope of their project. And we should also simply trust in them that they actually know what they're doing.

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skaniol
skaniol

Tavern Dweller
posted February 14, 2017 03:05 PM

fred79 said:
man, i haven't been here as long as some others, but i've seen this same conversation a bazillion times. this is the hota team's thread, guys. not a discussion on what should be what. if you guys did stuff like this in my thread(with how much is OFF-topic here), i'd be calling for executions; screw penalties.

When there are issues bothering the players for a long time, what do you expect? It's natural that people bring up this topic. Maybe we should ignore the elephant in the living room instead?

The game is far from perfect and balanced. The HotA team already did some balance changes and skill tweaks. I am curious whether they plan to do more in the same vein. There is a lot of room for improvement. I know this isn't a mod trying to deface the original game, but even small changes here and there could improve things.

Galaad said:
This all skills discussions are always pissing me off, you want all the skills to be like Logistic or Offense? It would be BORING it that was the case.

That's kinda funny because I don't think it could be that much more boring than it currently is. ATM the skill selection is so straightforward, a bot could do it perfectly. It starts to get interesting when there are many good skills, but you are limited to only 8, so you have to decide what's best for the situation at hand. I find it a lot harder and interesting when I have to pick between two good skills compared to picking between one good and one bad, or two bad ones.

I don't think anyone wants all the skills to be equally powerful. That's even impossible. We just don't need absolutely useless skills like Learning, or very close to useless like First Aid, Mysticism, Eagle Eye and Sorcery. What's wrong to buff them a bit in order to make them viable a bit more often? They still won't replace the beloved ones like Logistics, Armorer, Offense... but they should be good enough to consider them in certain situations.

How is Learning useless in itself? The skill would be quite useful if it wasn't for the mediocre boost. Whoever designed this skill, he just took the 5%-10%-15% boosts because these are the same boosts on many other skills, but he didn't realize how low these numbers are when it comes to the real leveling. If you think that Armorer will always be better than Learning, let me give you an example how Learning could be made OP:
Give it the effect to double the Primary skill gain on every 4th level-up (like +2 ATK at level 8, instead of +1). Give it the flexibility in skill selection like I suggested. Then increase the boosters to 200%-400%-600% and suddenly Learning is among the best skills in the game instead of being the worst. An Expert Armorer lvl 20 hero will be worse than the hero who did the same stuff, but he had Learning instead of Armorer. The second hero will be level 30 and the sheer boost to primary stats alone compensates the lack of Armorer, not to mention any boosts from a Hero specialty based on levels.

I am not saying that Learning should be as good as in the example above. My point is that Learning has the potential to be among the useful skills. It's up to HotA crew to decide whether they want to fix it or not, because it's really broken at the moment and I seriously doubt that the current implementation is how the original game designers envisioned it. Anyway, such issues aren't really game breaking, though. I won't stop playing HotA if they never touch the skills anymore, but I wish they would.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 14, 2017 03:53 PM

The day Hota doesn't play like Heroes 3 any longer the crew will have failed its initial goal.

Making bad skills become average or good is denaturing the game, because the game was INTENDED to be played ALSO with bad skills. When you roll a dice, you can get a 6, you can also get a 1. If you remove anything below 3, you are simplifying the mechanics and limiting the creativity in gameplay. And FYI experienced players know how to exploit the RNG so it's not like you're completely doomed either.

Like Avatar rightly pointed out, these "bad" skills have offered many great experience in custom maps and scenarios and removing them has a greater impact on the overall experience than some seem to assume, not everyone plays exclusively random maps, and I won't comment on some of the MP crowd butchering the game by banning half of its features.

If you want to boost skills, play wog, wog was created EXACTLY for the people who can't deal with the original game, as well as others who simply wish to expand the limits, but it's different, Dragon Slaughter for example is hardly your typical h3 experience, as good as it is it is drastically something else.

It is also extremely simplistic approach to think there is only one way of playing the game, and no offense it shows little knowledge of the game.

Then there is two types of players, the ones who will mod the game for it to match their vision, and the ones who will pollute the threads of existing fan projects because things don't go their way.

hippox89 said:
I agree that it can come off as rude behaviour, even if that's not the intention, at all. But we should all at least strive to better understand the crew's vision and scope of their project. And we should also simply trust in them that they actually know what they're doing.


Hippox, you are by far the best poster in this thread.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 14, 2017 04:14 PM

I apologize if the HOTA crew thinks this discussion is off-topic (I believe it's not, as they are already on a path to improve balance in the game), but I'd like to chime in as well.

I really like the example on Learning skaniol gave above: a useless skill can be made really useful and balanced by merely playing with the game parameters.

In the same vein, I'd like to give as example magnomagus's approach in the MMH5.5 mod:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=41303
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=41320

A lot of (if not all) skills were modified with an effort to balance them out with a solid mathematical calculation of impact. Is it perfect? Probably not (also bare in mind H5 skill system is vastly complicated compared to H3), but it's light years better than the H5 ToTE game in terms of balance. What "better balance" means is that there are so many more viable paths to hero development that can win the game, be it single or multiplayer, and so many more tactics to counter a human opponent. The best part is that it's still H5, it feels and plays like it, but like a new expansion pack that came with new experiences.

What I'm trying to say is that if a larger scope and substantial effort was put behind it, I believe HOTA crew can address most of the skill balance issues in the beloved jewel of the series. It wouldn't have to alter the game such that it doesn't feel like H3, and the HOTA crew would quite literally make history

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verynice
verynice


Hired Hero
posted February 14, 2017 05:57 PM

Galaad said:
Making bad skills become average or good is denaturing the game, because the game was INTENDED to be played ALSO with bad skills.


Do you have a source on this or are you just assuming certain skills were intended to be universally terrible?
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 14, 2017 06:22 PM

Galaad said:
The day Hota doesn't play like Heroes 3 any longer the crew will have failed its initial goal.

In that case they already failed, cause they DID change Necromancy and Scouting. Did they also fail for making Conflux more expensive and produce less phoenixes?
Of course not, both of these things improved the game. Just like the changes to Necromancy and Scouting, subtle changes to other skills could in fact improve the game.

I already implemented the changes I wanted to see, so no reason for me to write about it anymore, but clearly I'm not the only one with this point of view. If HotA could make an awesome game even better, why should'nt they.



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Bluts
Bluts


Hired Hero
posted February 14, 2017 07:05 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Galaad said:
The day Hota doesn't play like Heroes 3 any longer the crew will have failed its initial goal.

In that case they already failed, cause they DID change Necromancy and Scouting. Did they also fail for making Conflux more expensive and produce less phoenixes?
Of course not, both of these things improved the game. Just like the changes to Necromancy and Scouting, subtle changes to other skills could in fact improve the game.

I already implemented the changes I wanted to see, so no reason for me to write about it anymore, but clearly I'm not the only one with this point of view. If HotA could make an awesome game even better, why should'nt they.





Ye, after they tinkered with Scouting, it's not a rare case to pick it intentionally
I love all the changes they've made so far, but if u ask me if they should buff the skills... nah, it will be better to nerf the good skills

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Wind_Falcon
Wind_Falcon


Adventuring Hero
posted February 14, 2017 07:51 PM
Edited by Wind_Falcon at 01:07, 15 Feb 2017.

(I feel strange writing this, considering my initial post was explaining why skills can't be balanced in the current game and that the [admittedly almost always bad] skill buff suggestions are essentially meaningless...)

Galaad, decades of discussions both Heroes and other strategy games related (because yes some of us play the other great games of the genre as well), including input from various developers at that, have shown that you are on the wrong side of the argument.

I didn't know you worked for NWC's Heroes development team and know the original team's vision, that's good to know.

But whatever it was, arguing that the game is not broken (or at the very least heavily flawed) is moot - you won't trick anyone with even a basic understanding of this or any other strategy game, regardless of how snide you write your comments to be.

It wasn't intentional - as we know 3DO was already going the way of the dodo at the time of the game's release, so NWC didn't have the time to do and polish everything they wanted, evidenced by missing content from pre-release screenshots, obvious mistakes that QA didn't catch before release in the base games that were later patched out (only this point by itself nullifies your argument, otherwise by your logic they wouldn't have touched them), and the rushed quality of the expansions.

But even if it was, bad design shouldn't be held up as a holy cow that holds back the potential of the game.

We already have the vanilla games, they aren't going anywhere and will remain what they are forever.

I always find it amusing how you and and some other members act as if the community has put a gun to the heads of modders . Obviously no one can have any influence on their vision here or anywhere else on the Net, even if they wanted to. There is no need to play the role of valiant white knights defending their frail artistic souls.

But (the people like) you seem to not understand that its the community at large that keeps these games and projects alive, not only the modders by themselves. And the regular Joes are the ones that in the end have the power, both to propel an effort further, or to doom it to oblivion. After all they are the ones actually playing, streaming, talking to their friends about and generally popularizing the games and projects, and for whom they are made, whether you like it or not.

This is the only fan content creating community I've seen that shuns discussion of any kind, as if the players are dirty peasants screaming at the castle walls of creators, yelling at them to keep the noise down. Acting as if these discussions are off-topic and not related to the project/s is counterproductive to anything and everything the whole community wants and strives for, players and creators alike.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 14, 2017 08:35 PM

Wind_Falcon said:

But whatever it was, arguing that the game is not broken (or at the very least heavily flawed) is moot


Of course we know it has broken aspects, yet is the best -from far- game in the series so I can't see who will take the risk of changing the backbone and finally see -who knows- the community quit and for ever because what made its charm is now gone. You know that modding is not a hocus-pocus process, it takes months, years. If you think you have a perfect vision of what needs fixes, please give the tone.


Wind_Falcon said:
But (the people like) you seem to not understand that its the community at large that keeps these games and projects alive, not only the modders by themselves.


I agree, both keep the game alive. However one side puts into the game thousands of sweating hours -for FREE, while the others just jaw around to feel important. No offense.

Wind_Falcon said:
This is the only fan content creating community I've seen that shuns discussion of any kind, as if the players are dirty peasants screaming at the castle walls of creators, yelling at them to keep the noise down. Acting as if these discussions are off-topic and not related to the project/s is counterproductive to anything and everything the whole community wants and strives for, players and creators alike.


Its not entirely true. I would say that opinions from people with serious credentials are always listened -what I mean is that not enough to say "the game must be fixed", but come with tested and well thought solutions, your own structures and designs etc. Then also opinions from every fan around as well, except when they start to push and make it more vocal than it needs to be. Its like in politics, once your opinion is heard then ignored, you have no other choice than give up, start working and show you are right, or start wagging tails around and become annoying.

I also would love to get that Learning skill worth the pick, yet I am not sure that if one team starts dissembling the game then put it back again, I would love the result more than what I have right now. Risky and this is why we have WoG, to please personal tastes.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 14, 2017 08:41 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 20:55, 14 Feb 2017.

verynice said:
Do you have a source on this or are you just assuming certain skills were intended to be universally terrible?
Have you noticed all original Stoneskin specialists start with Learning as well as the best cleric? How Tower heroes suck but alignment rules? How the mediocre alignment of Stronghold gets the best heroes?
Yes, it was made on purpose.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 14, 2017 08:45 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 20:48, 14 Feb 2017.

@Wind_Falcon That was the best post I've read in this forum in a long time.

Discussions are good and keeps the game alive even after so many years. Sometimes things becomes off-topic, it's natural and it does'nt really hurt anyone.
Besides I don't understand respecting NWC so much that one would just blindly follow what they decided almost 20 years ago, without even considering if it is in fact the best decision.
Take the Inferno spell for example, does most people agree it's a bad spell?, I would say yes, could it be interesting to make the spell better?, I believe the answer is yes again.
Some people seems so afraid or in awe to change anything at all, even though it could improve the game, I don't get it.

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Wind_Falcon
Wind_Falcon


Adventuring Hero
posted February 14, 2017 08:50 PM
Edited by Wind_Falcon at 00:14, 15 Feb 2017.

Thank you for responding in a civil manner Salamandre.

I generally agree with you, but the process of "X puts Y amounts of time and effort FOR FREE you ungrateful dolts" can be entirely skipped with nothing of value being lost. I've said it before and will say it again - regardless of anything, people are always grateful.

There is nothing to lose in taking risks, the game is already almost 20 years old, and getting deader and deader with each passing year. Now is the time for cardinal changes and bold experimentation, otherwise the game will completely remain just a memory while people worry what might happen (which we all know is a slow death).

Like you said in the SWM thread, "jawing around" helps crystallize ones own thoughts, which may lead to something. The point stands, the "jawing" should be left to flow, and with it people's creative juices. Even bad suggestions have a net positive overall. At least if people try to further the discussions and make something out of them, and not preemptively shut them down.

Politics was a very bad example btw, more in my favor than yours, at least as I see it.

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