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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 14, 2017 08:59 PM |
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I was not talking about being grateful, but about the time people put in. Changing the "broken" skills would be the major change to the game, even more than HoTa, it will change the way the templates work, mage guilds, battles, and so much more. This requires thousands of hours while no one is sure about the result, will it keep the game feeling as magic as we felt before or will be now sort of Starcraft, chess or whatever.
So my question is "who will invest hours in" when, from reading just opinions around, you guys don't even agree each other with what exactly needs fixing, how, when etc. Look at Phoenix guy, he keeps being annoying about inferno spell  yet he can't propose a value we should give from now to that spell: how much damage, how to value for AI, how to change the value in shrines, in guilds etc. It is obvious that he delays this decisive aspect to some modder, which means there is nothing less sure in being pleased with result.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2017 09:04 PM |
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@phoenix4ever
I'm sure the HotA creators have such discussions regularly as opposed to people occasionally chiming in when they think the next HotA release was delayed.
Because of this and since working on HotA & caring for russian forums probably already entirely make up the share of their freetime they are prepared to invest in HoMM I don't think any "person in charge" will read your discussions.
All you do is wasting your time and cluttering the thread for people seeking for HotA infos & assistance.
In case they do read this stuff they know that Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid ... are crap skills by now. You find whining about this on every page.
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 14, 2017 09:14 PM |
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It doesn't matter that people here can't agree with each other and don't know what to do - what matters is for HotA team (or rather, any creator, but HotA are the biggest guys around with the most pull) to do know for themselves, and act. Going for the potential and fumbling it is more worthwhile than doing nothing/playing it safe. A fumble can be corrected, after all.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted February 14, 2017 09:20 PM |
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@Salamandre You are wrong my friend, I already implemented a lot of changes and it made the game much better imo. The Inferno spell was just an example.
Take a look at this thread if you wan't http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43804
@gatecrasher Sorry if I'm annoying to you, but I post the way I feel. I'm not here to please you, I'm here to express an honest opinion.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 14, 2017 09:51 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:55, 14 Feb 2017.
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Salamandre said:
I agree, both keep the game alive. However one side puts into the game thousands of sweating hours -for FREE, while the others just jaw around to feel important. No offense.
partially but not entirely correct. Modders sweat away for hours making new content and balancing it and the old stuff, but balancing can only be worked out by hundreds or thousands of players across an extended period. Oh you could possibly run the numbers through a machine, but miss just one variable and the entire thing would go wrong, so empirical testing is really the only way.
The HOTA team have already rebalanced Scouting and Necromancy, so I can't see the issue with doing the same to Learning (and perhaps Eagle Eye), to make them so they're at least mildly competitive.
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Javiduc
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 14, 2017 09:58 PM |
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Please Hota crew, release 1.5 soon. Otherwise someone is going to get hurt 
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skaniol
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 14, 2017 10:03 PM |
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Edited by skaniol at 22:09, 14 Feb 2017.
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Galaad said:
The day Hota doesn't play like Heroes 3 any longer the crew will have failed its initial goal.
This is quite subjective, IMO. To me, the game already doesn't play like HOMM3 at all - It's better. Just like SoD doesn't play like the original HOMM3. How far can the HotA team go? That's an interesting topic and I am sure it was discussed a lot in this thread. IMO, they can get away with making any sort of changes which the previous expansions did. Who cares if the meta would be shifted a bit? I am sure that you can adapt.
Quote:
Making bad skills become average or good is denaturing the game, because the game was INTENDED to be played ALSO with bad skills. When you roll a dice, you can get a 6, you can also get a 1.
You said it yourself. Even on the common six-sided dice the starting value is 1. Just like the playing cards start with 1 (Ace). Have you noticed that it's not common for them to start with 0? Even the worst have some value. In HOMM3 we have literally a skill that is 0 (ok, perhaps 0.1). This is how I would juxtapose the current skills to the six-sided dice (pls, no hate, it's a personal opinion):
6: Logistics, Earth Magic
5: Air Magic, Armorer, Offense, Diplomacy, Tactics, Wisdom
4: Archery, Intelligence, Estates, Scholar, Scouting, Water Magic
3: Artillery, Fire Magic, Leadership, Navigation, Necromancy, Pathfinding
2: Ballistics, Luck, Resistance
1: Sorcery
0.75: First Aid, Mysticism
0.5: Eagle Eye
0: Learning
We have only two that I would call outstanding (at 6) vs five (at 1 or below). I think that Eagle Eye and First Aid should be at 1, while Sorcery, Mysticism and Learning should be at least a 2. I don't see anything game breaking if there are more skills toward 5-6 compared to 1-2, though. All these tiers really don't matter, since there is no correlation between the rarity of a skill and its usefulness. Players report that they pick most of the best skills anyway, so where is the thrill? Where is the variety?
Quote:
Like Avatar rightly pointed out, these "bad" skills have offered many great experience in custom maps and scenarios and removing them has a greater impact on the overall experience than some seem to assume, not everyone plays exclusively random maps, and I won't comment on some of the MP crowd butchering the game by banning half of its features.
I think it would be pretty cool if it was possible to set certain skill properties as a property of the map itself. This way the custom maps and scenarios could be adjusted. Also, a random map with some random skill properties could offer a different sort of a challenge.
Quote:
Then there is two types of players, the ones who will mod the game for it to match their vision, and the ones who will pollute the threads of existing fan projects because things don't go their way.
I am the second type, I guess. Although I can mod the game myself, It doesn't count when I would be the only one playing it and I certainly can't do something on par with this mod. I am sorry for contributing to the Global Warming... (the Inferno player in me has no regrets  )
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verynice
Hired Hero
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posted February 14, 2017 10:59 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
verynice said:
Do you have a source on this or are you just assuming certain skills were intended to be universally terrible?
Have you noticed all original Stoneskin specialists start with Learning as well as the best cleric? How Tower heroes suck but alignment rules? How the mediocre alignment of Stronghold gets the best heroes?
Yes, it was made on purpose.
That's not a source. You can rationalize any design flaw if you try hard enough.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2017 11:00 PM |
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I think what this topic needs is an active moderator. HotA crew members have already stated that the hasty suggestions thrown in here have little to no value to them and are generally unwelcome - therefore should be kept in separate topics.
How about you respect that and stop flooding the topic with your imaginations in every new post. They have the team, they do the research, they try to balance stuff. I guess everybody should just wait and take what is given. After all nobody forces you to play the addon. And you can be sure that random thoughts like "make misticism regenerate 14,65565% mana per day!" or "allow learning to double exp points!!!" won't make the hota team change their course and start fixing things just to satisfy your vision.
Just my 2 cents.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 12:19 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 00:23, 15 Feb 2017.
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i'm actually starting to think that the reason why the delay for the latest release has taken this long, is because they're protesting all the spam flooding their thread. a silent protest, like when Rage against the Machine taped their mouths for a concert and just stood there on stage, staring at the crowd.
edit: you know what's sad? THIS post is more on-topic than all the other posts where people are discussing what needs to be nerfed/buffed/added to the game. 
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 12:27 AM |
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Galaad said:
Making bad skills become average or good is denaturing the game, because the game was INTENDED to be played ALSO with bad skills.
Phew... thats a very insular point of view and maybe correct for the time the game was released. Still -> HotA gets updates till today and you can play this game in multiplayer. HotA team cared a lot about PvP and the balance there. At least the secondary skills and spells would be an option to be changed, and they already did changes for two skills. As for more factions, fog of war or simultanous retailiation thats something different and it would change the core of the game massive. But we'll see about skills and spells in the future, at least Nik said it's not off the table afaik, maybe we'll have luck at some point in the future.
phoenix4ever said:
Take the Inferno spell for example, does most people agree it's a bad spell?, I would say yes, could it be interesting to make the spell better?, I believe the answer is yes again.
Some people seems so afraid or in awe to change anything at all, even though it could improve the game, I don't get it.
Yeah, Inferno is the worst skill ingame in case of cost effectiveness imho. Still it's the trademark of "Inferno" town with a chance of 20% to get it in you mage guild.
Wind_Falcon said:
There is nothing to lose in taking risks, the game is already almost 20 years old, and getting deader and deader with each passing year. Now is the time for cardinal changes and bold experimentation, otherwise the game will completely remain just a memory while people worry what might happen (which we all know is a slow death).
Thats what I mean too... It would be easier to add some new mechanics for example "damage over time" for spells and in notime some skills could get quite strong. Like "Inferno" skill if you would add a "burning" effect for +spellpower rounds to it that units get hurt/die every turn from it. The game isn't the holy grail of strategic gameplay... but there is always a way to improve the content. I've modded enough games in the past. One of my favorites was Wizardry 7+8 an epic game with epic story that just lacked balance to be awesome as hell. Still the old balance is charming too, but with balance I mean balance. Flexibility and no OP races/classes anymore.
MattII said:
partially but not entirely correct. Modders sweat away for hours making new content and balancing it and the old stuff, but balancing can only be worked out by hundreds or thousands of players across an extended period. Oh you could possibly run the numbers through a machine, but miss just one variable and the entire thing would go wrong, so empirical testing is really the only way.
The HOTA team have already rebalanced Scouting and Necromancy, so I can't see the issue with doing the same to Learning (and perhaps Eagle Eye), to make them so they're at least mildly competitive.
My talking aswell. HotA needs official tournaments from time to time and every tournament should change to the meta a little until the balance is granted.
The cooperation with the HD Mod guys is very nice imho and the correct start for maybe something big in the future. In case of simultanous turns it worked out quite well. Maybe on long term a platform where PvP with a lobby is also possible, we'll see. In that case you really get enough data to balance the stuff from time to time. Dunno if something like this is intended and it isn't necessary at all but I would still love it.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 15, 2017 12:31 AM |
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The thread topic is Horn of the Abyss. If the project managers want a thread dedicated only to project updates and want wishes and related topics relegated to a separate thread, the thread creators should start threads with more specific titles. As it stands now, discussion of wishes are on topic and allowed, to the extent that they are not breaking other forum rules in any case.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 12:52 AM |
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Both a master map maker and a sensible moderator at the same time. 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 15, 2017 04:19 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Just like the changes to Necromancy and Scouting, subtle changes to other skills could in fact improve the game.
Not arguing against that, but most of the suggestions posted in this thread are not "subtle". True, Necromancy has been nerfed, but it is still OP, and I am actually glad it is.
Scouting's boost wasn't actually needed IMO but I can admit it is not ruining anything.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 06:46 AM |
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skaniol said:
You said it yourself. Even on the common six-sided dice the starting value is 1. Just like the playing cards start with 1 (Ace). Have you noticed that it's not common for them to start with 0? Even the worst have some value. In HOMM3 we have literally a skill that is 0 (ok, perhaps 0.1). This is how I would juxtapose the current skills to the six-sided dice (pls, no hate, it's a personal opinion):
6: Logistics, Earth Magic
5: Air Magic, Armorer, Offense, Diplomacy, Tactics, Wisdom
4: Archery, Intelligence, Estates, Scholar, Scouting, Water Magic
3: Artillery, Fire Magic, Leadership, Navigation, Necromancy, Pathfinding
2: Ballistics, Luck, Resistance
1: Sorcery
0.75: First Aid, Mysticism
0.5: Eagle Eye
0: Learning
We have only two that I would call outstanding (at 6) vs five (at 1 or below). I think that Eagle Eye and First Aid should be at 1, while Sorcery, Mysticism and Learning should be at least a 2. I don't see anything game breaking if there are more skills toward 5-6 compared to 1-2, though. All these tiers really don't matter, since there is no correlation between the rarity of a skill and its usefulness. Players report that they pick most of the best skills anyway, so where is the thrill? Where is the variety?
I find fault with your list because it tries to find an average value for all of the skills, even the ones like Navigation and Pathfinding that are so map dependent that they can be either at point 5 or point 1-2 depending on the map type your playing. Ballistics is another one, it's much less useful for Tower and Rampart heroes than for Castle ones, the same with First Aid for Castle and Tower vs Rampart.
Corribus said:
The thread topic is Horn of the Abyss. If the project managers want a thread dedicated only to project updates and want wishes and related topics relegated to a separate thread, the thread creators should start threads with more specific titles. As it stands now, discussion of wishes are on topic and allowed, to the extent that they are not breaking other forum rules in any case.
Well I started up a(n unofficial) thread for wish-lists, and I see another has been started up for things like balance discussion. Also, asking them to mod a whole thread is, to my mind, a bit steep. Perhaps instead they could start a thread dedicated to official announcements and content release only, with this one being kept for general discussion.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 09:52 AM |
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Corribus said:
The thread topic is Horn of the Abyss. If the project managers want a thread dedicated only to project updates and want wishes and related topics relegated to a separate thread, the thread creators should start threads with more specific titles. As it stands now, discussion of wishes are on topic and allowed, to the extent that they are not breaking other forum rules in any case.
i'm not going to go back through all the spam posted here to try and find where/if the HotA team wished a seperate thread for wishes/suggestions. all i know, is that one was created, because anyone trying to find ANY substance regarding the actual HotA team's release or content, would have to sift through a gazillion pages of this stuff.
and, that thread is on the front page of the homm3 mod forum, ffs
but do what you want, cor.
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verynice
Hired Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 10:55 AM |
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Edited by verynice at 10:55, 15 Feb 2017.
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fred79 said:
i'm not going to go back through all the spam posted here to try and find where/if the HotA team wished a seperate thread for wishes/suggestions.
There is a very big difference between discussing balance/design and throwing out wishful suggestions.
If the HotA team is as deeply offended by this discussion, as you seem to imply, all they have to do is let people know and it will stop. They don't need random forum members to preemptively defend them.
Either way, there should be a separate HotA news/announcement thread so people can easily follow development news instead of having important dev posts scattered among general discussion.
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Janosiczek
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 15, 2017 11:53 AM |
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Hello
Any news about upadate ?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 15, 2017 12:28 PM |
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verynice said:
If the HotA team is as deeply offended by this discussion, as you seem to imply, all they have to do is let people know and it will stop.
They didn't directly say they were offended but after stating multiple times they don't read suggestions it shouldn't be too hard to connect the dots. People stopping? Very funny.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 15, 2017 12:54 PM |
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The hota team has separate threads for separate things over at the df2 forum. And it's simple to see why.
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This Super Thread is pages long: 
